The light of islam (ugh everyone is a critic)

Here's the problem with that. Well, actually, thank you for pointing out that one. I do remember seeing things like this. The issue is that at least 31 Muslims, not including the hijackers, were killed either on the planes or in the buildings on 9/11. Essentially, it seems as if they killed fellow believers in the name of God.

Adder wrote:

Leena wrote: I read the Qur'an right after 9/11 to get an idea of where the hijackers got their information. I still haven't found it. LOL.

I think the "Decleration of Immunity" (immunity from what for doing what!?) has a bit of the stuff which can be intepreted as 'go kill the nonbelievers'. Its not my area but this bit might be one of them;

I dont think I've misrepresented the context? In that same chapter is says "for Allah loveth those who fear him." which is why it all felt a bit Old Testament to me. I'm interested in it though to find out if I can pull anything useful out of it.

And you can't misinterpret this:
Deuteronomy
Chapter 2
32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

Deuteronomy
Chapter 3
1-7
1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Deuteronomy
Chapter 7


1-6
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

And it goes on and on all speaking of killing (both women and children) and pillaging towns in the name of god this is all in the holy bible.

Here is a site that provides lists and lists of references of murdering in the name of god.
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/terrorism__rape_and_other_cruel_acts_in_the_bible

No religion is perfect and are made by their times for their times.

Yes of course, though that is from the Old Testament which, at least in my intepretation, the NT should be meant to override or update. They are all so old the context they are provided is very out of date these days. Leena mentioned she looked for something and couldnt find it so I was just trying to help.

Adder wrote: Yes of course, though that is from the Old Testament which, at least in my intepretation, the NT should be meant to override or update. They are all so old the context they are provided is very out of date these days. Leena mentioned she looked for something and couldnt find it so I was just trying to help.

I see the nt, and ot one and the same personally because it builds on one another and speaks of the same god anyways in a chronological order. But your right the Old testament god was much more harsh compared to that of the new testament to say the least. He was portrayed as a vengeful deity where as in the new testament he is presented more as a "buddy" of sorts

I have seen because of Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam we have great people in the world

History shows otherwise. the arrival of abarahamic religions always marks the end of civilization. That's true in: America, Europe, middle east, Africa. Asia was recently taken by communism, another form of religion, but adoption, complete rejection and recovery won't take more than a hundred years.

Didn't Jesus say something like "I have not come to change on letter in the Law or the Prophets, but to see them fulfilled". So "overriding" the Old Testament is just Christian justification.

Different times, different stories. Christianity was influenced by Hellenism and Paganism, so no religion stays pure. Most of the things most Christians believe today were introduced by Catholic folklore in its quest to mesh with pagan religions and gain acceptance. The devil and hell weren't even in original Judaism!

Civilizations come and go, but the destroyers have always been men, not religions.

And what are religions made of? The existence of a deity does not make a religion, in the same way the Force didn't wait for Jediism to exist. Christians make christianity, muslims make islam. Considering the importance of religion in the life of the religious, denying its involvement in the negative parts of history and exclusively looking at the positive influences is dishonest at best.

You make a good point Ren.

But rarely does a person burst into jihad or inquisition sporadically. There is usually someone manipulating religious doctrine in their favor, and the ignorant follow through.

Manu wrote: So "overriding" the Old Testament is just Christian justification..

Well I'm not Christian and I havent heard anyone else say it, so I'm not parroting anyones justification - but in my own readings it is the most obvious and meaningul relationship between the two Testaments. The Old Testament needed not be wrong to require overriding, just badly written/transmitted.

ren wrote: Considering the importance of religion in the life of the religious, denying its involvement in the negative parts of history and exclusively looking at the positive influences is dishonest at best.

Only if the person is claiming to represent the religion. Discussing only the positive aspects of a religion is not dishonest IMO (in fact its all I'm interested in) - in the same way as I dont judge a how football team plays based on the behaviour or football skills of its supporters!

Something like the death penalty has advantages. Exclusively looking at those advantages is foolish. Same goes for religion. And everything else for that matter. Being a Jedi, believing in the Force... It's all about looking at the bigger picture, not only at what's convenient.

ren wrote: Something like the death penalty has advantages. Exclusively looking at those advantages is foolish. Same goes for religion. And everything else for that matter. Being a Jedi, believing in the Force... It's all about looking at the bigger picture, not only at what's convenient.

Well analogies are only useful insofar as they make sense, but it sounds like your talking about the act of passing judgement on something? The electrician who is fixing the electric chair for the prison only needs to look at the electricals and not the broader implications - to fix the chair.

If he is deciding whether he wants to be associated with fixing a chair that kills...then yes he needs to look at the bigger picture to make a judgement about his path, but he is also loosing focus on what his actual involvement is by looking at the bigger picture, as their is a judical system that takes the responsibility for when the chair is used.

The broader the scope the more you see but all at less detail, but the narrow the scope the less you see but at greater detail. I think its fair to say a forum with religious subforums should be able to accomodate discussion about individual aspects of religions? Surely we dont need a disclaimer after every post indicating that religions are dangerous for your health, seek medical advice before reading!

Honestly, you're both right. Adder, we don't need a disclaimer after every post. However, in a topic discussing Islam in general, it is completely appropriate to include the negative aspects without bashing. Looking at the big picture is definitely important too. As for the question of the Old and New Testaments, here's what I was taught.

The New Testament, and specifically the crucifixion of Jesus, was meant to fulfill the law set forth in the Old Testament. That's why animal sacrifices ended after Jesus died. He was the sacrificial lamb if you will. He conquered death by returning on the third day. Now, to present a bigger picture, I have some questions now about what I was taught as a child.

The first is, if the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, then the point of the Old Testament is just to have stories, right? Then why do we pick and choose things from there to follow. My former pastor used a passage in Deuteronomy to explain why we shouldn't marry people outside of our religion. They use passages in Leviticus to explain why gay marriage isn't okay. The question still remains then: How do I know what in the Old Testament is out of date and what I follow? That could be for a CHristian topic whereas this is a topic specifically on Islam.

Of course there are negative things done in the name of God. Several recent examples were the work of Al Qaeda. We also have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc. I think it's very important to look at the fanatics as well as what the books say. Like I've said, the reason I left Islam wasn't the Qur'an. It was the culture of the people. I found it too closely tied to the religion so I got out. Being focused on the positive can be good, but there are always at minimum two sides to every story and both are worthy of examination.
Leena

Leena wrote: Honestly, you're both right. Adder, we don't need a disclaimer after every post. However, in a topic discussing Islam in general, it is completely appropriate to include the negative aspects without bashing. Looking at the big picture is definitely important too. As for the question of the Old and New Testaments, here's what I was taught.

The New Testament, and specifically the crucifixion of Jesus, was meant to fulfill the law set forth in the Old Testament. That's why animal sacrifices ended after Jesus died. He was the sacrificial lamb if you will. He conquered death by returning on the third day. Now, to present a bigger picture, I have some questions now about what I was taught as a child.

The first is, if the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, then the point of the Old Testament is just to have stories, right? Then why do we pick and choose things from there to follow. My former pastor used a passage in Deuteronomy to explain why we shouldn't marry people outside of our religion. They use passages in Leviticus to explain why gay marriage isn't okay. The question still remains then: How do I know what in the Old Testament is out of date and what I follow? That could be for a CHristian topic whereas this is a topic specifically on Islam.

Of course there are negative things done in the name of God. Several recent examples were the work of Al Qaeda. We also have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc. I think it's very important to look at the fanatics as well as what the books say. Like I've said, the reason I left Islam wasn't the Qur'an. It was the culture of the people. I found it too closely tied to the religion so I got out. Being focused on the positive can be good, but there are always at minimum two sides to every story and both are worthy of examination.
Leena

A simple answer to your question Leena I suppose you have seen star wars obviously. Think of the Force as religion in its basic form and see the dark side as the opposing side that takes everything in the bible too literal. Now when Luke was flying towards the death star in the battle above there was fighting going on, the empire vs the rebels. The empire is the set of rules and verses that speak bad of all things, the forceing you of looking at all things literal. The rebels was the free ideas, the morals that are included, and the ideas hidden between the lines. The death star is the huge stigma of religion that is forced onto everyone by blind pastors who see nothing but the negative. When Luke was flying his friends were being shot down, the literal meanings of religion was destroying his true spiritual ideas on all the subjects. He kept his head straight and didn't let the constant battle destroy his focus onto the approach of the death star (the one thing blocking his big epiphany, his begining of nirvana, and the breaking of the suppresion that he felt by the empire.) He was then in the trenches coming closer and closer. He brings down his visor and sees through the eyes that are what everyone would of used but what happens? Kenobi speaks to him and tells him to "use the force." He put away the "crutch" in which he relied on for the answer and used his own ability to destroy the death star, to free his mind from the suppresive literal translation and enter into the new mind frame that from looking through his own eyes and spirituality he can conquer any task.

What does that mean? The bible isn't meant to be literal, I mean in literal text all the bible, the quran, and the torah are is a history book. Instead you are supposed to read above the lines and in between them where it is not so much that Job was sold by his brothers as a slave and he became the phaorohs right hand man after a long time. It becomes that life is full of problems and if you persist through with a good attitude you will be given what was meant for you, what you deserve.

Do you really think earth was made in a week? That dinosaurs must be fake? The seven day scheme is a outline of evolution from the second god created the universe with the big bang (let there be light) and the creation and chemical changes of the world. Then the evolution of animals from the sea and then to the land and finally to man. What happened on the 7th day? He rested (or so humans see it as because nothing is changed but life changes constantly and we live in the 7th day and soon there will be a religous text about the 8th day.)

Look at the outline below and put in evolution into it and you will see how it fits nearly perfect. God is beyond days so why would he have a schedule? A day in gods world is said to be hundreds of thousands of years in ours so why would he go by mans calendar during creation?

You guys don't understand that such is philosophies of the ages and arts throught the centuries, religion isn't supposed to be read literally it is supposed to be pulled out an greater idea from the symbology behind it. Religion speaks of god, god is a personification of a greater power that has dominion over the universe that is of no gender but an energy that sustains all and created all, the energy that first erupted during the big bang and spread out all over the universe and always expands. The force is an practical explanation of the same energy. E=mc2 is the scientific way of measuring it. Everything is interconnected and takes a person not to see so black and white to actually point out the similarities:
Chi
ki
astral plane
the colective unconscious
the cosmic unconsciousness
Allah
Yhwh
Jhvh
The Gaia hypothesis
the force
The life stream
and so on...

They are all the same! Every single thing is just another explanation of one another and the only way you see it is by not being so literal, thinking outside the box, and understanding that life isn't black and white, good or evil, it is just a living breathing cycle that has no biased opinion just the idea of infinite and the unmeasurable and the unknown.
They are all the same

I think that is the whole point. The comments I was making were what I was taught and not what I believe. The Star Wars analogy was very interesting. I even use a more literal analogy with that one about physical sight and blindness. Sight is a great thing until it is allowed to rule the other senses.

As far as the concept of religion being discussed here, no I am not someone who believes the the Earth was created in a week. The moral of Joseph's story was indeed along the lines of what you said. The moral of Job's story was patience and strength. Job lost everything and didn't curse God, at least for the most part. He finally did at the end and was chastised for it. I think the point of that story was enduring to the end. Many people have achieved this realization. When you lose everything, it can be built up again because all the stuff lost was just material. It's the spiritual things that are irreplaceable.

Well analogies are only useful insofar as they make sense, but it sounds like your talking about the act of passing judgement on something?

I am talking about looking at all aspects. Doesn't matter what the subject is. football, religion, death penalties, beer, whatever.

I think its fair to say a forum with religious subforums should be able to accomodate discussion about individual aspects of religions? Surely we dont need a disclaimer after every post indicating that religions are dangerous for your health, seek medical advice before reading!

I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Leena wrote: I think that is the whole point. The comments I was making were what I was taught and not what I believe. The Star Wars analogy was very interesting. I even use a more literal analogy with that one about physical sight and blindness. Sight is a great thing until it is allowed to rule the other senses.

As far as the concept of religion being discussed here, no I am not someone who believes the the Earth was created in a week. The moral of Joseph's story was indeed along the lines of what you said. The moral of Job's story was patience and strength. Job lost everything and didn't curse God, at least for the most part. He finally did at the end and was chastised for it. I think the point of that story was enduring to the end. Many people have achieved this realization. When you lose everything, it can be built up again because all the stuff lost was just material. It's the spiritual things that are irreplaceable.

I said Job didn't I? I meant Joseph :pinch: . Job is a great example as well lol.
And yes I thought over that analogy for a hour at work today even lol (waking up at 4am then visiting this site to check messages and mindlessly working will let your mind wander.) The point I was trying to make is that true wisdom is only learned by looking beyond the words. It was a way to discuss that preachers don't really see things beyond the literal and call themselves wise and also a comment to the whole "picking and choosing thing" and how things should not be picked but read deeper beyond to ask "why did they say this in the bible and why that" most of the "don't be gay" and "kill and pillage" stuff comes from the time it was produced and that was the mind set and culture of the time. To follow that is like reading of rome and dressing up as a centuarian riding a horse. lol these sort of comments are also just to inject some new ideas into the topic more so to help people think (mainly the guests who come by and others who would benefit from it.)

ren wrote: I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Good point, this is going to be a long thread if the OP keeps to the title :side:

Adder wrote:

ren wrote: I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Good point, this is going to be a long thread if the OP keeps to the title :side:

There you go.

You know you guys spend way too much time reading titles rather than what is actually in it :pinch:

So are we talking about the light of Islam or about the fact that everyone's a critic? LOL. JK. For the record, titles are important and help the reader stay on topic. They let me know where off topic might be. Of course, seeing what's in this thread suggests that many topics are being discussed and therefore changing it to The Light of Islam would change the direction of the discussion completely.

So what I find great about Islam is that the prayers are absolutely beautiful. I love to sing the surahs of the Qur'an and to hear them sung. I love that there is no mediator to talk directly to God. I love the camaraderie of the community. Everyone is treated like family from the beginning. There's always someone willing to help teach you something. That's where a lot of the light of Islam is in my opinion.

Just one point of feedback. Several times you have said something to the effect of "You guys believe..." For example, many people here wouldn't take the Bible, Torah, or Qur'an literally. I'm sure there are several who do, but I don't know that except that I've seen some of the Christian topics. Looking at some of the topics of discussion that have come up, I know for sure that each person has a differing point of view. We may agree on some, even many things, yet I have yet to meet two people who agree on all things.