ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

ren wrote: If anything, doctrinal changes should make the journey greater, not duller.

Which suggests that you think this change makes the doctrine duller. I myself would disagree with this, as would the apparent thoughts of those who have previously commented on this thread. Though I accept that this is still a massive minority of our 'official' membership

@brick
Truthfully -Those present are the membership - funny thing about a ever changing place like this. The flow moves people in and out there and here and in many places at once sometime.

This isn’t objection to any change officially - I’m not sided only a few concerns more than questions if you please.

The doctrine here as I’m aware, I may be wrong- is open for application purposes. Any one can apply it anywhere they like. It’s like the book of change- nowadays- any one can write a “Tao of me or a TAO of you.” That doesn’t make it any less special or valuable or even worth less but more for doing more with it. Those are the basics for individuals to create their own faiths - their own - practices and their own levels of faith as well. To me - what it seems like to me - I’m only human- is these are more personal and more clearer to those who have made them- prolly not others. It’s hard in Jediism to define things because the definitions are mostly for the individual Jeddist to create or adapt or so on and so forth. It’s not wrong to share. Not even. If anything this should be in a place in the library as a resource we can all look to for guidance on how to translate our own doctrine into a personal applicable doctrine for each of us.
It’s like a light saber- you can give and get one but a Jeddist would benefit more if when they make it themselves. Give others opportunities to do this - for them self’s rather than do it for them. Maybe show and give a lesson on how to tune our own personal doctrines or something like that?? If individuals need more personal definitions - it is always encouraged to do just that. Maybe that’s what we need more of - less do this and more do this for yourself - just my thoughts.
So my question.

How can we adapt some one else’s personal interpretations to doctrine? Can we really? How do we encourage others to do this very thing for them self’s? How do we give this freedom to everybody? How do we stop giving fish and teach others to fish? Can we?
I will gladly look over any proposal sent out way. Ren is the secretary so he has a secretary of the council email somewhere. Send it to him when you feel it’s time.

Leading people is hard. Leading smart people - even harder. Leading Jeddist today... is an oxymoron. Living with them - that’s the stuff many paths are made of. I’m not set in any one way currently just to be open and honest. I’m not objective , I really want to hear more. I’m for change and growth hands down.
I just wrote my first “Jeddist book of change” and although I want to share it with the world and let every one see what I’ve done - at the same time - I want those who choose to to do it on their own for them self’s. Nothing I do can’t be done. Same can be said for many things in a Jeddistic way. Anything we can create for outselfs- any one can do that for them self’s as well.
I could take the time to make my own doctrine and codes and maxims ( I have and I encourage others to do the same.) shouldn’t that be the charge rather than take my words as yours ? Can it be make your own?

as a practical matter where my own training through the IP is concerned, how soon might we expect a yay or nay on this? It would affect the part I'm about to do, so I'm particularly eager to see how this works out.

I'm uncertain, is this actually being left up to The Knights, entirely, or will their decision influence the Council? The bureaucracy of this place has never been clear to me.

Honestly, when this discussion first started, I was opposed, but, seeing the final product... I like it. It still works for it's intended purpose, giving guidance while requiring thought and questions over time. It's flexible enough to still be however meaningful it needs to be, for whomever needs it, and achieves this more efficiently, without being repetitious.

I'm not here to debate it, really, just offering my opinion, here.

as a practical matter where my own training through the IP is concerned, how soon might we expect a yay or nay on this? It would affect the part I'm about to do, so I'm particularly eager to see how this works out.

I would suggest do the assessment as per the criteria laid out at the time of assessment - ie, as it is now.

Training institutions are always working through updates at any given point in time, however I've yet to see one that has the teachers burst into the room mid-exam, kick over the tables, and screech "PLUTO IS NOT A PLANET! EVERYONE CHANGE THE ANSWER TO QUESTION SEVEN!"



Or, if you really want to be a labrat - do it twice, once with the current doctrine, and once with the proposed doctrine - that will assist the Master Jedi here with seeing how the changes may affect the IP and people's understanding of it.

JamesSand wrote:

as a practical matter where my own training through the IP is concerned, how soon might we expect a yay or nay on this? It would affect the part I'm about to do, so I'm particularly eager to see how this works out.

I would suggest do the assessment as per the criteria laid out at the time of assessment - ie, as it is now.

Training institutions are always working through updates at any given point in time, however I've yet to see one that has the teachers burst into the room mid-exam, kick over the tables, and screech "PLUTO IS NOT A PLANET! EVERYONE CHANGE THE ANSWER TO QUESTION SEVEN!"



Or, if you really want to be a labrat - do it twice, once with the current doctrine, and once with the proposed doctrine - that will assist the Master Jedi here with seeing how the changes may affect the IP and people's understanding of it.

Now, there's an idea! I like that!

I'm in agreement with Carlos and ren, myself. But don't misunderstand me - I think what has been put together is just great!

I've always seen the doctrine as non-perscriptive. Carlos and ren pointed out exactly why in the last page: It's not meant to give all the answers, and also, it's used more as an example for any individual to build upon personally for them and their walk of life.

Whether or not what has been proposed becomes considered, accepted and implemented or not, I'm not worried about. The effect, at least for me, makes no difference because, as Carlos pointed out, this community by its nature helped me "learn how to fish" so that I don't need a document to tell me what is and isn't right or what Jedi are supposed to believe. Either way, I will derive my own view out of it.

Just, if I may ask, try to really consider what Carlos and I ren are trying to say, and try to consider it onto the work that has been proposed here.

Wonderful work, btw! Thank you guys for putting it together!

Ren if the document is so “dumbed down”, how come you couldn’t figure out 10 & 14?

Ren if the document is so “dumbed down”, how come you couldn’t figure out 10 & 14?

Cheap shot.

In any case, I re-read 10 and 14 at different times of day under different personal conditions and felt differently about them, which suggests that either

A) I am insane by some measure and can't maintain coherent thoughts or ideals for long.
or
the phrasing and tone is unclear and does not give an accurate view of the meaning.


You can't help A, but B is only exacerbated by language or culture gaps.

Kelrax

It would depend greatly upon the team that works on it. Br. John and a I talked extensively about a flexible IP. The proposal I sent him and Neaj based on his vision included the idea of organizing a team of interested Knights, Masters and Apprentices to work together on building the program.

Given that the design requires 3 options per assignment, I imagine it will take a bit of time to match up appropriate materials and creative thought to design the program from the ground up. But if we have dedicated teams to this effort, I believe we can accomplish this within 6 months of starting in on the project. Though, a year may be a more practical answer. My personal hope is to have it ready and running by our 15th Anniversary (Christmas 2020).

Admittedly, James, so are Ren’s comments. He’s not actually giving any input- he’s trying to derail the discussion. Truly he’s never come out and said it directly, but there are members of the Jedi Community he simply wishes would go away and he’ll try to hit them with passive-aggressive non-sense until they do. I know I’m on that list of people he’d rather see go away. But it’s not happening- I care about this place and I won’t let an individual stop me from caring.

The irony is, Ren has an opportunity here to actually defend his position on these matters by either:

1) Illustrating how the current model’s contradictions contribute to the growth of an individual.

2) Defending the 21 Maxims because “They are the original, in-house code of jediism. The purpose is to keep jediism jediist” and showing why it should be considered the superior document.

This isn’t Facebook, we have a lot of room to making decent arguments, rather than idle passive-aggressive shots designed to look like they are wisdom.

As to the wording in 10 & 14, I believe there’s still time for edits to be proposed to clarify things ^^, if you or anyone else can come up a constructive edit it would be quite helpful ^^.

Proteus: As for Carlos’s input on how they are more like guidelines- if that’s how the order chooses to look at them, it’s fine. But we still need to agree to one document. Two are still very cumbersome.

Though, I have to say- of it’s just some guideposts, why even call ourselves a Jedi? Because we believe in the Force? So do Sith. Because we want to help people? So did the Baran Do (there was a real life order for this a few years ago), they also believed in the Force. There are also Sith who believe in helping others. Are they all Jedi? They would tell you no- and truly to force a term upon them which they don’t believe suits them would be wrong.

A long time ago, Jestor use to say “If you call yourself a Jedi, you are one.” But in private he explained that this wasn’t the full measure of his belief. It was “If you call yourself a Jedi, you’ll want to become one and little by little you will become one.” He actually believed in a base standard for what makes a Jedi, but his belief in “Call yourself a Jedi, and you are” was about the psychological impact it creates within you to achieve it.

I’ll admit I understand that theory, but I disagree with it in terms of philosophy and religion. “I am going to be a a Jedi” has a more powerful impact and drives you to want to grow in the system. It gives you specific goals, rather than shooting your arrows in the dark hoping to hit a bullseye.

The Doctrine is the target, your effort the arrows, your sight picture and breathing the meditation put into hitting the mark.

You can seek personal improvement anywhere- but we all chose to find it in the Jedi Community. That has to mean something, right?