Hell Fire

When I was a kid I believed in heaven and hell. After I became a Jedi, I didn't believe in hell. Now, once again I believe in heaven and hell.

What those are depends on the individual. I don't think heaven and hell are two fixed places that are the same for everyone, nor do I think you have to stay in one or the other permanently. But the point of my post is that I heard a pastor say something unexpected. He said he's been asked multiple times whether or not he believes in real fire in hell. He said No. Mostly because, first, Jesus talked about it more than anything else, and second, he always talked symbolically.

The pastor explained that Jesus said God's love burns like fire. Surely that wasn't literal. So he went on to suggest that hell might simply be disconnection from God, that his love burns people in hell as torture, as something they can no longer touch.

Thoughts?

Hi Streen,

I'd firstly like to point out that I am Agnostic, so I have never believed in Heaven and Hell as explained by Christian religion, but I could understand the concept behind them.

I may, though, compare Heaven to the feeling or state of mind you have when you feel everything is going well for you, joy, bliss, that inner warmth that just make you feel happy... Likewise I'd compare Hell to the feeling of despair you can feel when everything is going wrong, when you feel lost, alone, useless, helpless, hopeless, that burning feeling that develops in your gut making you just want to lay down and cry.

Thus I'd relate "the fires of hell" to that burning-agony sensation. So for me, it would be symbolic, as any feeling. Being like this, this fire could be extinguished by hope, or trust, or by believing in God (I guess)
Whether a real Heaven or Hell exists, I dare not say.

May the force be with you,

Puerh

I'm studying a book at the moment from the 1200s called 'The Cloud of Unknowing' (probably written by monks).

The author/s talks about the Cloud of Unknowing being the darkness that exists when one is not close to God. You break through the Cloud by freeing yourself from 'sin'... basically he says that you must not let emotion and fear control you, and that when you break that control through contemplation, you can come to know God.

Having read this, the concept of hellfire I can easily believe to be this kind of disconnect from God.

Some think the earth is a flat disk, some think it is an ovoid, others say it is really hollow and we live on the inside, yet others think it may be shaped like a torus.

Some think unicorns ought to be blue, most say they are white and some would suggest they are pink. Meanwhile a few insist they are invisible and any, all, or none of the colours mentioned above. Some say they have fluffy fur and paired hoofs, and don't get me started on the different opinions on the average length of their horns.

So what is the fundamental difference between these two controversies? One of them we can test. We all live on pretty much the same earth. We can measure its curvature in any spot. We know the depths of the deepest rips on the bottom of the sea and the highest peak heights of the himalayas. Not only can we approximate the shape of the earth, we even have satellites in orbit that can measure irregularities and deviations from the approximated idealized shape. We know the earth exists, we don't know that unicorns do. We can examine the earth because it exists. But before we can tell who is wrong and who is correct about the unicorn question, we must first establish that they exist to begin with, and we have. They are grey, have hardly any fur, have full feet rather than hoofs, a thick skin and weigh a lot more than any horse would. So what, rhinos aren't real unicorns, I hear you object? Well then show me a real unicorn and demonstrate the difference.

I don't believe in heaven and hell. I have no reason to and nobody I asked who believes seems to know an intellectual justification for that belief. Of course it may still exist, but before I can go on and describe it, I must examine it or at least read a report of a community of experts in the field who despite their competition against each other could independantly examine it and find the same results others did. That is what I would expect to happen if hell was real. What I find is the opposite: No two believers have the same conception, they can for the most part not even agree on whether it is a real place. If I were to compare the consistency in descriptions of hell with that of the two examples above, I must say, it is much closer to what a description of a unicorn looks like than that of earth. In other words, the testimonies I get to hear and read are in their sum exactly what I would expect them to be if the object being discussed is made up just like unicorns are and unlike anything I would expect a description of something real to be, like earth is.

Therefore, I can make no claims about the contents or nature of hell without pulling those claims straight out of my own or somebody else's bum.

Gisteron, are you trying to tell us that this discussion is meaningless? I may be completely missing your point, if I am I'm sorry.

It seems that you are telling us that even if Hell does exist, that our discussion over Hell fire is a useless one because we can't go to hell, study hell fire, and then come back to talk about. It seems to me though, that if we could do that, then someone would have, and then this topic would be useless because we would already have the answer.

I say it is as meaningful as discussing unicorns. It's entertaining but no truth can be found that way. One might argue then that by my reasoning arm chair philosophy never helps find any truth. I still think that not all talks are equal. If you have some data, you can try and extrapolate that, or interpret it or discuss the implications of your interpretations. You can't find out something that is true, but you can make falsifiable predictions. There is something true to be found about everything that exists, about things that are actually somehow there and of which we know that they are. When we don't know that there is even a "there" there, we have quite literally nothing to discuss. Again, it can be entertaining. But it has ultimately no utility. It can have meaning, it can have purpose, be it only the fun we gain exploring our imaginations. And we can learn a few things about each other that way. But that is as far as it goes until the time when we know that we are actually discussing anything.

Gisteron wrote: It can have meaning, it can have purpose, be it only the fun we gain exploring our imaginations. And we can learn a few things about each other that way. But that is as far as it goes until the time when we know that we are actually discussing anything.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

I quoted that part specifically because I enjoyed that part the most. It let me know that you do see value in what we're doing here. Which is all I really wanted. Otherwise I'd question why you even read this thread, or any thread in this sub-forum for that matter.

I think it represents the complex illusory representation of pain, such as can be experienced in dreams or altered states... and by contrast heaven is a type of white energy, not so much 'pleasure' but a non-physical sensation (!!) of bliss but with still with some concept of form. The later could be associated with the Force IMO but I'd view the other as a manifest form of physicality to the extent of entrapment to some agent.

If god truly loved us... he would not burn us like friday night barbecue..

"Hell" is a representation of a disconnect from "God" in the Christian religion. That's why "Satan" is king of hell, because he openly rebelled against "God" and purposely created a rift between them. I would say that rift is hell. It also mentions that "Jesus" went to "Hell" and brought righteous souls who wanted to leave to "Heaven", not many decided to go with him. Point being, you put yourself there and you can leave whenever you like with the help of the divine.

As far as Jediism goes, I have no authority, but I would say that the more you stray away from The Force the worse you will feel in your daily life. Though to me it's the same idea as Judeo-Christian ideal that "God" never leaves your side, especially in times where you lack faith. The Force never leaves you, especially if you're in turmoil.

Priwen wrote: "Hell" is a representation of a disconnect from "God" in the Christian religion. That's why "Satan" is king of hell, because he openly rebelled against "God" and purposely created a rift between them. I would say that rift is hell. It also mentions that "Jesus" went to "Hell" and brought righteous souls who wanted to leave to "Heaven", not many decided to go with him. Point being, you put yourself there and you can leave whenever you like with the help of the divine.

As far as Jediism goes, I have no authority, but I would say that the more you stray away from The Force the worse you will feel in your daily life. Though to me it's the same idea as Judeo-Christian ideal that "God" never leaves your side, especially in times where you lack faith. The Force never leaves you, especially if you're in turmoil.

And how does one stray from the force? To sever the link is to cut the ties to life itself, and that's not metaphorically speaking either. Campbell said something to the fact that our bodies have a whisper of its own, (perhaps the pulse of the force) guiding us on how to live a more whole life. That was the reason for Darth Vaders demise. He turned into a crackup because he stopped listening to what his "heart" was telling him. He didn't take it to the extreme so much as to ignore it altogether. Being out of sync with your mind and body and the environment your in, then becoming purely a mental being, identifying with your thoughts while cutting yourself off from the source, That IS Hell...

Zenchi wrote: And how does one stray from the force? To sever the link is to cut the ties to life itself, and that's not metaphorically speaking either. Campbell said something to the fact that our bodies have a whisper of its own, (perhaps the pulse of the force) guiding us on how to live a more whole life. That was the reason for Darth Vaders demise. He turned into a crackup because he stopped listening to what his "heart" was telling him. He didn't take it to the extreme so much as to ignore it altogether. Being out of sync with your mind and body and the environment your in, then becoming purely a mental being, identifying with their thoughts, and thinking way too much. That IS Hell...

Well, when I say "stray" I mean slowly drifting away from. Surely you feel The Force stronger when you are practicing mindfulness and are appreciating the world around you rather than when you are focused on more impermanent and worldly desires?

When it comes to the Dark and Light side, it is Fear vs. Hope, and we have two "hearts" that tell us different desires based on which one we are giving our attention to. Anakin's Fear of losing his family was so strong that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, leading him to become Darth Vader. When he saw that his son had become a true Jedi, his Hope overcame his Fear and he gained the courage to defy his master.

He decided to leave "Hell".

Priwen wrote: Surely you feel The Force stronger when you are practicing mindfulness and are appreciating the world around you rather than when you are focused on more impermanent and worldly desires?

Is that a definition or an observation. In both cases: Source, please.

To split the difference between Zenchi and Priwen...

My understanding of the Force leads me to think that one cannot actually detach from it. That said, I can detach in the sense that I am not conscious of that connection. Perhaps, in my pain or frustration, I do not 'feel' connected to anything around me. Or I forget that I am part of everything. That illusion of isolation sounds like suffering to me.

I don't know if it qualifies as a hell, but it's awful when it happens.

Gisteron wrote:

Priwen wrote: Surely you feel The Force stronger when you are practicing mindfulness and are appreciating the world around you rather than when you are focused on more impermanent and worldly desires?

Is that a definition or an observation. In both cases: Source, please.

Define what? The statement you quoted was an observation based on how I feel better when acknowledging The Force than when I'm too "caught up" to try and align myself with it, I said "Surely" because I can only assume that it's the same for most.

Your attitude seems very confrontational, there is no right answer here. We're just trying to contribute to Streen's thoughts.

Cabur Senaar wrote: To split the difference between Zenchi and Priwen...

My understanding of the Force leads me to think that one cannot actually detach from it. That said, I can detach in the sense that I am not conscious of that connection. Perhaps, in my pain or frustration, I do not 'feel' connected to anything around me. Or I forget that I am part of everything. That illusion of isolation sounds like suffering to me.

I don't know if it qualifies as a hell, but it's awful when it happens.

Thank you for clarifying my point! Words are hard :S

Streen wrote: Thoughts?

Any guy that's been married for a while knows what hell is and hell fire has nothing to do with it! :laugh:

Streen wrote: Thoughts?

It's important to remember that there are two types of fire found in Christian spirituality. One is a bright, gleaming, cleansing fire--the kind that touched the lips of the prophet in Isaiah. It is the righteous flame of the Holy Spirit, the tongues of fire on the heads of worshippers, the warmth of the love of God, the consuming fire of the sacrificial altar, the light of all things good.

The other is the fire of destruction. Hell, the Lake of Fire, all the imagery that goes with. However, if one notices, Hell is also associated (in biblical text) with great, great darkness. It's a fire that produces no light, only pain. An interesting concept.

Some say hell is other people. Most days, I'm inclined to agree :whistle:

But I do agree with those who say that Hell is well-and-proper the separation from a higher love. The thought of it is unbearable.

Streen wrote: When I was a kid I believed in heaven and hell. After I became a Jedi, I didn't believe in hell. Now, once again I believe in heaven and hell.

What those are depends on the individual. I don't think heaven and hell are two fixed places that are the same for everyone, nor do I think you have to stay in one or the other permanently. But the point of my post is that I heard a pastor say something unexpected. He said he's been asked multiple times whether or not he believes in real fire in hell. He said No. Mostly because, first, Jesus talked about it more than anything else, and second, he always talked symbolically.

The pastor explained that Jesus said God's love burns like fire. Surely that wasn't literal. So he went on to suggest that hell might simply be disconnection from God, that his love burns people in hell as torture, as something they can no longer touch.

Thoughts?

That's basically the way Orthodox Christians explain it, and they are the absolute oldest Christian tradition, so that might tell you something.

Older than Roman Catholic?

Rickie The Grey wrote: Older than Roman Catholic?

the Byzantine/Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions both trace their roots back to the Apostles, so are equal.