Psychoactive Substances

I really don't know if this belongs here, but since i could not find any other area that seemed to allow this discussion, I thought i would bring it up here. Please forgive me if this issue is "taboo" on this site, and remove it if you see fit Admins.

So my question is twofold:

1. How do you feel that thousands of citizens are being incarcerated for choosing to use a substance that is "illegal". By this I mean "offenders" who's only crime was doing that drug or substance ( I am not saying idiots who rob, commit crimes shouldn't be punished. They should. I am talking but people who are arrested simply for choosing to use that substance). Does it make you feel more safe knowing that cops are chasing down potheads doing nothing but sit in their house and smoke dope rather then using the time to find the REAL criminals who harm others and violate their rights?

2. In light that many civilizations and religions have and continue to use psychoactive substances as a sacrament or part of their religion, isn't the government's persecution of people using psychoactive substances a form of religious persecution? For instance, I believe that marijuana is a sacrament, used for connecting with spiritual forces and gaining greater insight. What right does the government have to persecute me for my religious beliefs? Who have I harmed by smoking marijuana? Is not my body my own...or is it in truth owned by the government? If it is owned by the government, doesn't that imply I'm a slave that only has rights as long as the corrupt political elites say I do? If I am a slave with no right to decide what I take into my body, then can we at leat be honest and admit that indeed I am NOT free, my rights come from corrupt politicians and I am only free to do what th ecorrupt, bribed politicians say I cna do?

Which religion do you follow then? The one that requires you to smoke marijuana despite the legal situation? I only know of a couple so I would be interested to find out which one you belong to. I fully support the use of substances that have been indigenously honoured for thousands of years and are only used in a sacred context, but not when they are abused in order to just get high. That's disrespectful to the spirit of the plant in question, whatever that may be.

The debate about marijuana has already been discussed on the forum so you may find it useful to add to those topics. Use the search bar (top of the page) to find them.

I follow a religion called Tardism ( I know the name sounds bad, but it is meant to be "in the face" of those who Tardism is meant to appeal to: the poor, people with disabilities, racial minorities,e.t.c. We also use it to show solidarity with people with developmental disabilities who are probably the most mistreated and oppressed group in America). We use it to gain communion with The God, and we consider it a sacrament as holy and sacred as wine in the Catholic religion.

That's interesting. Do you have any links to resources where we can learn more about this? Also, do you commune and work with the spirit of the plant as indigenous animist practitioners do? Or is it used as merely a tool to achieve a state of consciousness that better facilitates a connection with your "God". Actually, what does "The God" represent to you? See, I have many questions! Maybe linking to resources might be a useful way of answering me!

I agree with you, I would say I have taken every drug that isn't going too far (ie. opiates, heroin etc.) none of them have done me harm, and nor has it done harm to the numerous people who I have taken them with. Furthermore, the war on drugs that has been going on for so many years has clearly failed, however, the people most responsible for this are the people who take the least responsibility. The middle / upper classes of society are the one's who fund the drug trade and fund the criminal activity that comes with it. I would say, then, that when buying weed, you should grow it yourself or buy it from someone who is not going to fund criminal activity.

However, having done many drugs, and having been a HEAVY pot-smoker for two years I can say that none of them brought me any sort of true happiness. Weed in particular is a massive depressant, not only that but it seriously affects your memory / capacity to learn. I know many people who smoke pot regularly, none of them do it for spiritual purposes, and in my opinion it has done serious damage o their personalities - for the most part they've become boring morons. There is a real common myth (in my opinion) among people who smoke a lot of dope, that it doesn't effect them and they can smoke as much as they like, or they even say it boosts their capacity to learn etc (the complete opposite of what I just said!). That, in my opinion, is total rubbish. Of all the people I know who smoke pot, I've only met one guy who could function on it, and his work seemed to genuinely improve as a result, NOTE. That is one out of about 10 - 20 people!

I agree with you, and would say that dope should be legalised. However, as with drinking, people should experiment and realise the effect that it has on them, and regulate their intake of it in respect to the effect it has. You say that you smoke it for religious purposes, however, if that means just getting high everyday I really struggle to see what the benefit of that is. I still smoke dope but only on very rare occasions and when I have no other commitments. For the most part I am tee-total and in being tee-total I feel that when I meet someone or connect with someone, they are dealing with the real me and what's more I feel that my capacity to do things is increased to no end, rather than just sitting about giggling.

Mark Anjuu wrote: That's interesting. Do you have any links to resources where we can learn more about this? Also, do you commune and work with the spirit of the plant as indigenous animist practitioners do? Or is it used as merely a tool to achieve a state of consciousness that better facilitates a connection with your "God". Actually, what does "The God" represent to you? See, I have many questions! Maybe linking to resources might be a useful way of answering me!

The God, to us, is symbolized by the sun. That is very important to us, since the Sun as a symbol of The God conveys what we believe about The God; just as the sun gives life to the earth, so does The God who is defined as "The Life Energy" of the universe. In other words, we believe that all living life, everything from plants to animals to humans, exists and live because The God, like the Sun, continously transmit Life-Energy to us.

You might call that Spirit or what not. However, we do not believe in life after death. We hold that as the "charge" of Life-Energy runs down we "die". Rather, we believe in "genetic reincarnation"; we believe that it is necessary to have children, and that if you do, your genetic code will recombine in such a way that your genes will lead to you being "reincarnated" in your offspring (again, understanding that since most people have ancestors they will never know, these personalities will not be an exact copy but will be a recombining of the personality traits of your ancestors). We see this in physical features passed down genetically, so we believe that personality is genetic as well.

Marijuanna is used both for communing with The God as well as a form of divination we use to ascertain The Gods will. The form of divination is called "Chillination". Basically, the Priest calls on The God to bless the Pot, and lights the ritual bong. The pipe is passed down until all have achieved what we term "Illumination". at that point, prayers are addressed to The God, asking for The God to reveal It's will to us through the television. A random channel is chosen, and whatever is first heard and or seen is believed to be a message to The God. When it is heard/seen, usually we will ponder how the message applied to a concern of ours or to a question we want answered.

Priests are bound by several laws: 1. Priests can not engage in priestcraft; that is, the Ministry is not a means to acquire money for himself. At services, the Priest is supplied by donations by the congregation (allthough NEVER money!!). We call this the "Ecclesiastical Offering" and consists of used clothes, donated food, e.t.c. Furthermore, a Priest can not vote, and in addition a Priest because he has no money of his own is supplied with a room inside the Temple. This room, however can only contain items that are allowed and usually donated. Furthermore, Priests are required to make sunrise, midday, and afternoon prayers and make sure the Temple does not become impure.

I am strongly opposed to psychoactive substances and substance abuse.

THIS IS MY BELIEF AND STANCE, so do not take it as an attack against your beliefs:

I believe that those who believe they are connecting with God via drugs are mislead by their want to feel like they are getting a spiritual high from the substance. I believe that the only thing you connect with is YOUR subconscious (in some Jedi circles, this would be called your "Personal Force"). I believe that substances taken to give you a spiritual experience inhibit your ability to connect with the "Living" and "Universal Force".

My POLITICAL Stance is this:

Using something which is classed as an illegal substance or using a legal substance illegally should be enforced by fines (UNLESS harm to others is somehow caused-to include being pinned with child neglect if you are caught using drugs while your children are at home, as well as drug dealers). Why? Because we don't have enough room or money in our jails to harbor people using substances. It also helps put more money into the government for worthwhile projects.

I respectfully disagree. Who are you or the government to tell me what to put in my body? By what right? Where in the Counstitution does it say that isn't a right?

If you consider the understanding that we are all a part of the Force, then communing with our own subconscious is exactly the same as "connecting with God" or whatever alternative term you choose to employ. So in a way, I agree with Alethea except for the fact that she seems to be treating such a connection as being less "spiritual" or effective due its personal, non-deity-related nature. I am God and God is me and so are all of you. So asking myself is like asking God. This is my belief and this is also explored in some of the content of the Initiate's Programme, especially Alan Watts' work.

Then again, I believe that the distinction between the "Living Force", "Universal Force", etc is just one of semantics. It's all just different manifestations of the same thing, which is the totality of existence. So a plant spirit is no different from a human spirit. As a practising shaman, I support working with plant spirits providing that it is in a sacred context, honouring the spirit and working with it in order to achieve healing and enlightenment of whatever kind is appropriate. The problems come when the plants are used to just "get high" and are not respected as they should be.

the UK doesn't have a constitution, but I would agree with you that you should be allowed to do what you want. That said, just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean that you should do it. I believe something like heroin should be decriminalised, not because I think everyone should be shooting up, but because the fact that it is illegal does not stop people doing it. They have an excellent system in Portugal (where all drugs have been decriminalised) where by they go to areas where there are lots of addicts, provide clean needles and take away the dirty ones. The people who are addicts are NOT taken to prison either, they are taken to rehabilitation, which makes a lot more sense to me, firstly because in my view an addict is not a criminal nor is possessing drugs a criminal act and secondly because economically it makes much more sense, it must be more cost effective to send someone to group therapy than keep them locked up for a year.

I would, however, also agree with Alethea. I seriously don't see how drugs bring you closer to God or make you any sort of great spiritual being. There is nothing external in smoking dope, it effects your mind and alters your perception of the world in the same way having a couple of pints does. One reason I can see why weed might be illegal is because people don't respect it. I don't when / where you smoke, but if you're smoking at say 10 in the morning, would you really have two or three pints at that time? Probably not. What's more, for the most part, potheads are incredibly uncreative and unimaginative, the only reason you might think that you are more so is because of the effect it has had on you, for example, I laugh at incredibly stupid things when I'm high and afterwards I'll think, wow, that really wasn't very funny at all. I'm sorry then, but I really cannot see how smoking weed is going to enhance a religious experience, if anything it would dupe you into having one. At the same time, the way you're speaking about it, it seems as though you just want to smoke a load of weed, to which I have to say, dude, get over it, it's really not that great, it's just weed.

There have been many groups, faiths and paths over the past 4000 years that have used marijuana in a sacred context. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis

Alcohol is also used as a sacred tool by some, such as the curandero in Peru. As I mentioned above, the problem is not with the plant/substance itself but with the context and intention with which it is used. In the same way, communion wine is used by Catholics in a sacred context to bring them closer to their spirituality by representing the blood of Christ (or the belief that through method of transubstantiation it actually becomes that blood). Getting drunk on wine with your mates - not so spiritual.

Besides, what's so bad about something that "effects your mind and alters your perception of the world". Meditation does that too. All such tools can be used for a spiritual purpose, or abused for fun. If someone just wants to get trolleyed, that's stupid and disrespectful.

I think that's right, the way in which you do something does determine whether or not you have a religious experience. I would say though, that everyone has a different reaction to different drugs, I know people who can't drink alcohol for example.

For me personally, when I take drugs, specifically marijuana, I feel it drains me as a person. I do not feel as though I act in a way which is true to my real self, on an extremely basic level I might buy loads of food when I get the munchies. What's more I've found that taking drugs leads to lying and a detoriation in relationships with friends and family and at this moment in time I feel as though, as a result of taking drugs very rarely, I have a better, more honest relationship with my family and the people I am close with, I am close with because of a bond we share as people, we don't get together just to take drugs.

I do accept though, that the environment I have taken drugs in was never a spiritual one, and that I have not treated drugs as sacred, it has always been for a bit of fun, or even worse, to forget out my problems. Saying that though, I don't see how it could have any difference. Although perhaps the experience of the high would be very different, the physical and mental effects still remain, ie. if I smoked dope every day I would be very lazy and have a very bad short term memory, even if I was smoking it to achieve some sort of enlightenment.

I'd like to put forward another question though. At the moment I take drugs on rare occasions and in an environment where I am with only close friends. In the past I have found that some drugs can really bring you closer together with friends, you become more open and are more willing to express your feelings towards them? If what you say is really true, is that not a good thing, as it can only enhance your relationship with that person(s)?

Again, that depends on what your intent is. If you are using something in order to form a close, positive bond with people that you care about, then that may well be a good thing and could even be said to be a "spiritual pursuit".

As for your comment that regular use would have a negative effect, again I agree. Having a deeply mystical and spiritually-enlightening experience every day might not be good for you either! With most things, appropriate moderation is usually the best advice.

Having said that, ayahuasceros (for example) will consume and commune with the spirit of ayahuasca on a regular basis, usually several times a week. But only for healing (themselves or others) or to facilitate work that benefits the community, such as divination. It would never be used just for the thrill of it.

I see it all as another tool, good at something but hopeless at everything else. I dont think humanity is mature enough yet for it to be as available as alcohol - though I think it perhaps should be.

I was reading something yesterday about optogenetics , and I predict in the mid term future people will be able to inject themselves with a one time virus which will cause designed genetic mutation in specific brain neurons that trigger specific neurochemical changes when exposed to specific sub-cranial light - in effect having a fibre optic port/jack installed into their skull so that all they need to do to get 'high' is shine the correct frequancy of light into the 'jack'.



Shine the light baby!!! Where is William Gibson when you need him

This has been a good thread to watch and most of what I believe has been said.

I would only like to make the point that drugs, alcohol(moon shine types), and other illegal substances became that way in order to preserve a orderly society. It is not until the item has caused harm to someone other that the user that it becomes illegal. It also takes a toll on the financial aspects of living in a civilized society. As a public servant I have been on many calls where people exercising their "rights" have caused a strain on the local economy by theft, vagrancy, prostitution, etc.

I would also like to say it this way...

in order to live in a free and civilized society, we must give up some of our "rights" for the good of the "whole". At birth we are given a complete set of blocks (rights). These include the right to kill, steal, rape, use drugs, blow buildings up.

We freely give up these particular rights so that we may live peacefully and civilly. We all must agree or there can be no order. "There will be no unlimited editing on this site so that we may preserve the continuity of the thread" We as a organization agree by majority to do so. So we as a country agree by majority that certain items are illegal and must be outlawed to preserve the rights of all people in a civilized social order.

It is relatively easy to abide by these laws as it is easy to leave this country if you don't like the laws. If your rights are more important that the whole, your ego is in control of you and this selfishness leads to dark places.

Phortis Nespin wrote: This has been a good thread to watch and most of what I believe has been said.

I would only like to make the point that drugs, alcohol(moon shine types), and other illegal substances became that way in order to preserve a orderly society. It is not until the item has caused harm to someone other that the user that it becomes illegal. It also takes a toll on the financial aspects of living in a civilized society. As a public servant I have been on many calls where people exercising their "rights" have caused a strain on the local economy by theft, vagrancy, prostitution, etc.

I would also like to say it this way...

in order to live in a free and civilized society, we must give up some of our "rights" for the good of the "whole". At birth we are given a complete set of blocks (rights). These include the right to kill, steal, rape, use drugs, blow buildings up.

We freely give up these particular rights so that we may live peacefully and civilly. We all must agree or there can be no order. "There will be no unlimited editing on this site so that we may preserve the continuity of the thread" We as a organization agree by majority to do so. So we as a country agree by majority that certain items are illegal and must be outlawed to preserve the rights of all people in a civilized social order.

It is relatively easy to abide by these laws as it is easy to leave this country if you don't like the laws. If your rights are more important that the whole, your ego is in control of you and this selfishness leads to dark places.

This is pretty much exactly what I think, only worded much better than I would have managed

I do agree in principle that it is our right to decide what we put into our bodies.

However, if, as Phortis said, exercising that right has been proven to cause danger to others then something has to be done for the good of the society. If one wants to live in society they have to accept that measures will always be put in place to protect the members of that society, and in order for those measures to work, no member of that society can be considered to be above the rules.

I think that really it's about recognizing that although you (not anyone here in particular, just a hypothetical person) may not think that you will cause anyone harm, it is selfish and arrogant to consider it an impossibility. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes.

I didn't read many of the replies. But I want to say this. For a while now i've been refusing medication from nurses. I also have been asking my chineese doctor questions like "can chineese medicen be used to harm" he said "it depends on the purpose" Would you, if you were a mariguanna user, sit down with your worst enemy and light one up?

Also I read in the bagavad Gita something about how some people are mimicing the god Shiva, by smoking herbs and waring thier hair in thick braids. could this be refering to rastafarians?

Nehushtan wrote: I respectfully disagree. Who are you or the government to tell me what to put in my body? By what right? Where in the Counstitution does it say that isn't a right?

When I can get to a computer I will go into more of what I want to say to others , but for now this is the one I will address:

Who are you to mess with the lives of those who love you? Because that is what someone does every time they get involved with an illegal substance. Random scenario, just to illustrate the importance for a Jedi to NOT get high.

We'll take a scenario that could easily happen to anyone: You get high, a friend needs serious help RIGHT now because they just experienced a critical incident. This critical incident was "the straw that broke the camel's back". So your friend, in a final cry for help reaches out to you via phone before they decide to do something drastic (commit suicide). They call you because you are the only person that could possibly prove their life is worth living for. What do you do? How coherent are you to help your friend resolvve their problem?

Remember, it's not just your friend's Life that is being played with, but everyone that loves him/her which she/he may not even realize DOES care about them.

Will this happen? You don't know WHAT will happen, so why take the risk if you are going to be a legitimate Jedi? The government doesn't think the way I do, but if I had pushed for this bill, it would be for all those whose life could be ruined by proxy of their friends doing drugs. This isn't about you, it's about the whole.

Alcohol is legal but if someone chooses to relax with marijuana they're a criminal. That's based on science, reason and to protect society?

What the most dangerous drug? (Hint, it's legal.) http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/01/the-most-dangerous-drug

A new study in The Lancet rates the harmfulness of 20 psychoactive drugs according to 16 criteria and finds that alcohol comes out on top. Although that conclusion is generating headlines, it is not at all surprising, since alcohol is, by several important measures (including acute toxicity, impairment of driving ability, and the long-term health effects of heavy use), the most dangerous widely used intoxicant, and its abuse is also associated with violence, family breakdown, and social estrangement. A group of British drug experts gathered by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs (ISCD) rated alcohol higher than most or all of the other drugs for health damage, mortality, impairment of mental functioning, accidental injury, economic cost, loss of relationships, and negative impact on community. Over all, alcohol rated 72 points on a 100-point scale, compared to 55 for heroin, 54 for crack cocaine, and 33 for methamphetamine. Cannabis got a middling score of 20, while MDMA (Ecstasy), LSD, and psilocybin mushrooms were at the low end, with ratings of 9, 7, and 6, respectively.


The War on Drugs is a War on People. The law is the crime. There is no rational basis.

The United States has 5% of the world's population but 25% of all the prisoners on Earth. China has less people locked up than we do. This is rational? This is justice?

I'm not going to love the United States or leave it. I'm going to love the United States and help change it for the better. That's what Jedi do. At the top of my list is abolishing the despicable Evil Incarnate Prison Industrial Complex and ending the criminalization of good (otherwise) law abiding citizens merely for using a plant.

LEAP | Law Enforcement Against Prohibition - http://www.leap.cc/

Let's see:

• Many people die from alcohol use. Nobody dies from marijuana use.
• People die from alcohol overdoses. There has never been a fatal marijuana overdose.
• The health-related costs associated with alcohol use far exceed those for marijuana use.
• Alcohol use damages the brain. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use is linked to cancer. Marijuana use is not.
• Alcohol is more addictive than marijuana.
• Alcohol use increases the risk of injury to the consumer. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use contributes to aggressive and violent behavior. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use is a major factor in violent crimes. Marijuana use is not.
• Alcohol use contributes to the likelihood of domestic abuse and sexual assault. Marijuana use does not.

Details and references: http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/

How Marijuana Became Illegal: http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/

Let's not forget cigarettes: http://www.mjlegal.org/alctob.html

This is one of those things where I don't really have a side just yet. Let me throw out a word that should get you thinking..."alcohol."

Many of you argue that illegal drugs are harmful for the community and are ruining loved ones...but does alcohol not have this same effect? I have witnessed people fall apart because of alcohol. I had a friend from high school who turned from his family, and ultimately, died in an accident in which he was drunk (wrapped his car around a tree). What you argue against drugs, can also be applied to alcohol.

HOWEVER! There is another side I stand on. Unlike drugs, you cannot get contact drunk from alcohol. The smoke from drugs gives you contact high. The smell from alcohol does nothing (unless you're like me and it makes you want to vomit). I, for one, do not feel like getting high just standing on the street corner or sitting out on the beach while somebody smokes weed or pot. Sure, you can legalize some drugs but not others, but that just sends you down a slippery path. You can legalize all drugs but limit which ones are used where, but once again...slippery slope. People will still complain.

So as you can see, there are valid arguments on both sides, which is why I haven't been able to pick one. Now I do not like drugs. I do not like any mind altering substance. And I don't buy the whole "but it gives you a religious experience" crap (sorry, just being honest). Hallucinations from drugs are nothing more the false images and feelings. I do not want those falsities. I want to experience REAL spiritual connection (this is all just my opinion, by the way, but one I thoroughly believe in).

So there's my 2 cents. Not very helpful, probably, but it's there anyway. Deal with it!