TOTJO Circle... Lets get this decided...

This post made in the other thread, but I copy/pasted, so as to not derail the thread, and take away from the art...

Forgive the confusion...

Akkarin wrote: One of my pet annoyances with the Councillor badge is that it has a different central colour for the TotJO symbol than the rest - the colours are white and black for a reason

Having the symbol the same is unifying in my view so that's all that I would change

Wonderful work though!

Does the circle matter?

lol...

I said it did in the other thread about the symbol, when we started with the ecards...

Others said 'no'...

So, perhaps council needs to define it, as to whether the circle must be included...

Right now, in these designs (I feel like an art critic missing the point of the art, and instead, focusing too much on the symbols shown, lol) show the black outline, and then the 'background bleeds through the center of the star (most of them do, I dont think the councillor does)

Basically, if the 'black and white matter, then I request we use it everywhere, starting with the symbol at the top of our page....

But, lets hear from everyone before we take it to Council...

Although as you said it is an art, but it is representing something... I suggest we change the symbol colors where we could to black and white.

Didn't we already have a thread about this? And didn't we decide that the circle is considered part of the original design, but that artistic expression is perfectly valid because it keeps the damn thing from looking so$@#$^@ing boring all the time?

And didn't I spend about fi'ty-'levem posts on how the design itself is actually monochrome with negative space, and not white stars on a black background? Y'know, because the FAQ explanation says "dark and light" and not "black and white"?

...I could've sworn we talked about this before...deja vu, man. :whistle:

My post was about using it officially with our rank badges, you can be as artistic as you like, but just for example look at all the current badges.

Everyone is black and white and the Councillor one is gold because... we're somehow special? They should all be the same, Alex would call it jewelry and I would agree.

In official circumstances we ought to use the official symbol, if you want to use it in artistic circumstances then use it however you like.

But, it's so glamorous and pretteh! :lol:

I ask long time ago, and re ask, just a couple of weeks ago.
the old answer, was like the new, the circle MUST be there.

in my opinion, was part of the logo, was part of the so named balance between light and dark. so even colors matter.
in the other hand, the logo must be registered somewhere, as trademark, or as company logo, or whatever, so must be a legal aspect of it.
other than that, is not a good idea to have more than one logo.
a logo is a sign, is a representation, an identification and for me, was with the circle.

the most important thing is... UNIFICATION, if need to be there, we need to push it, and use it, everywhere.
if not, we need to remove it and use the main (new) logo (without circle)

and if we talk about inspirational art, ... well, we can use it, in any way, because was just something made, inspired in the logo ( like the gold one I've made years ago) but, never intended to be used as LOGO, just a work of art.

art is art, legal aspect, or identity is something different.

and please, the description in the meaning of the logo is so open, that, we can not base our decision on it.

this are all made following what the web say about the logo





clearly is not our logo, or is not the one I chose to represent me

so to be clear in my opinion.

1- we need one and only one logo as identity, as representation of members here
2- the circle make the black color end somewhere, ( light/dark)
3- without the circle, there is only a white start inside, with a white star shape outside.

without the circle, is a more versatile image, but doesn't represent everything.

in symbols, black and white represent light and dark, NO other colors, nor blue, nor yellow, nor red nor green, even when the different colors shades can make it look like a dark color, and a light one.
the right ones are black and white. without the circle, there is only ONE color.... WHITE, no other.

how do you represent dark and light with only WHITE? is that possible - NO

so we need another color.... and we need that color to graphically end somewhere... the black circle made that


so if is me , with the circle is the right one.

and I forgot to say, in any public website we post facebook, tweeter, youtube, mom's website, or any, we MUST use our main logo, no other.

think, we are not as recognized as i.e. coca cola, and this big companies, don't change the logo every decade. this is why they are well know logos.

we are not well know, and worst, if we start using different logos.
my proposition is the council or whoever deside this, need to make us use the real main logo, everywhere, and keep the inspirational art, just like that... art, not representation of all of us.

Akkarin wrote: My post was about using it officially with our rank badges, you can be as artistic as you like, but just for example look at all the current badges.

Everyone is black and white and the Councillor one is gold because... we're somehow special? They should all be the same, Alex would call it jewelry and I would agree.

In official circumstances we ought to use the official symbol, if you want to use it in artistic circumstances then use it however you like.

I appreciate your very valid opinion.

But I disagree with it as much as is humanly possible on the basis of design and visibility. Firstly, the rank badges as they are work "well*", with the exception of the circle/star, because they currently involve a lot of dark-color-on-dark-color and light-color-on-light-color nonsense. Secondly, why shouldn't the Councillor badges use a different color? Presumably, you folks run the joint. What's the point in rank symbols at all if everyone needs to be "equal"? We're not. We're all at different stages of this path and have different jobs on it.

Furthermore, are the rank badges "official"? Do they exist anywhere outside "right under our avatar"? I don't think they do, which would make them a visual representation of rank, and not actual valid rank insignia. If it's not actual valid rank insignia, then it's most likely unofficial, which means that it doesn't really matter if it's "white-on-black" or "black-on-white" or "chartreuse-on-mauve", does it?

Seriously, these threads are like watching average people on a cooking show, and I'm sat here shouting at the screen trying to get my point across, but nobody cares because they're all dead set on the fact that anchovies go in everything. I love you guys, but you really, really, really hurt my brain sometimes by refusing to listen to anybody who has expertise in a field if they disagree with you. It's like watching C-Span.


* this is actually a complete lie. they don't work that well at all. At least not at lower ranks, where Novice-to-Apprentice all share variations of the same color, because that gets super confusing with no other distinguishing marks. In addition to the poor contrast choices. I'm not knocking whoever designed them originally, and I'm definitely not knocking Vesha's hi-res designs. But, seriously, people. What are we doing?

we are talking about the budgets or about the logo and the identity?

I never see a coca cola logo en green and yellow .... why?

Rank bars:
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/40-information/698-rank-bars

Also just because something isn't written in documentation doesn't mean it isn't official. There are still quite a few 'unwritten rules' around TotJO and the FaQ still contains numerous errors in places (the Simple Oath article was the first of more changes I'll make to it).

@666
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/faq#TotJOSymbol

That is our symbol. I didn't write anything more on it because we have the picture, nothing more needs to be said as they can see it. Perhaps one day we will document it (maybe in a book of liturgy when we next write another), but until then it should do the job.

Really? Hm. Let's see what I can find...


No, that's not right...
How about:

Maybe if I...

Or...

What if I Google...


Well, seems you're right. Apparently the Coca-Cola logo is always, always, always, white-on-red and never, ever changes. Ever.

Akkarin wrote: Rank bars:
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/40-information/698-rank-bars

Also just because something isn't written in documentation doesn't mean it isn't official. There are still quite a few 'unwritten rules' around TotJO and the FaQ still contains numerous errors in places (the Simple Oath article was the first of more changes I'll make to it).

That doesn't make it more or less official. It's just a guideline to the pictures that pop up under our names. And in a purely online community, it's doubly important that "unwritten rules" are written down, because we're a global organization, and not everybody has the same base viewpoint coming into the Temple.

@ Akkarin, I know, some council members already told me that, and I do accept that as our logo, but for some reason, here is a now post about it, and the website, still have a wrong logo, (also in some other places... facebook, bla.. bla... bla...)
time to encourage the use of the real logo? maybe?, at lease in public places?

666 wrote: @ Akkarin, I know, some council members already told me that, and I do accept that as our logo, but for some reason, here is a now post about it, and the website, still have a wrong logo, (also in some other places... facebook, bla.. bla... bla...)
time to encourage the use of the real logo? maybe?, at lease in public places?

It's not wro..there is no rea...do you people understand how branding works, or should I just give the **** up and let you destroy the aesthetics of this gorgeous logo in peace?


edit - I apologize for the hostility in that post, but I don't understand why we don't take a moment to ask those of us that have had to deal with branding issues and graphic design and logo recognizability and heraldic function and contrast and negative space and ART and things what their opinion is, instead of all just harrumphing about "the way it ought to be"

lol, wow....

Hi steamboat...

We having fun?

Lol, OK, yes, we did agree thatbthe circle was officially a part...

I guess, my question is more "where is it officially needed?"

I also think 666's point was it doesn't change mid-campaign....

Yes, it changes, but, they do not officially use more than two versions at a time...

And even then, only in the transition form one to the other...

Rank bars, are official, page header, official....

Ecards sent out from TOTJO, official....

Ecards not sent out from TOTJO, such as posted by a member, unofficial...

Hows that?

Which means for the ecards, either mbets need to post them and tag TOTJO on Facebook/g+, or we need them with the official emblem too, to be posted officially...

Just to continue/adapt Steamboat's point...



...all of which are recognisably the same symbol, displayed in different ways. I appreciate the need to be clearer with the "official" usage, but I would say either the "star" or the "circle" are similarly identifiable... in some situations, one or the other looks better. Why limit ourselves?

As to colours, I agree they should be uniform if we're talking about stuff like rank bars, because otherwise it just looks a little messy, but beyond that also see no reason to restrict them further.

Just my 2c.

I give up.

Jestor wrote: Ecards sent out from TOTJO, official....

Ecards not sent out from TOTJO, such as posted by a member, unofficial...

Hows that?

Which means for the ecards, either mbets need to post them and tag TOTJO on Facebook/g+, or we need them with the official emblem too, to be posted officially...

Not wishing to undermine... but:

To be honest I had considered the E-cards as 'art' and the ones that 'blend' the symbol into the picture itself I thought looked really good. I don't really view them as 'official' in the same way that our rank bars or front page symbols are 'official'. The e-cards in my view clearly come under the umbrella of art.

In reference to Veshu's badges, lets be real, their perfect, as close as it gets anyways. Lets stop nit picking people...

so the new question is...

when or where we can use the real logo, and where we can use a work of art?

IMO, if you are representing totjo, you must use the real logo, ecards, must have the real logo, the website, documentation, business cards must have the real logo. every representation of totjo must be done with the real logo

an image I create inspired in the logo, I can post it anywhere, as a work of art, but is not representation of totjo, or is just for my use, or to show to the users here, not intended to be used as Public image.

a public image representing totjo, must have the real logo.



=====
this is my opnion, not representing anybody else than me
@steamboat28, like it or not, (like me) the logo exist, there was no contest to create a new logo, or there was no debate to improve it, change or modernize the logo, so we must use what is already there, if one day, totjo made a contest for a new logo, new design, update or whatever, we all can have ideas.... but till that day come.
the logo is there, it already exist, and nobody ask yet (officially) to be changed replaced, updated, or whatever.

anyway, we are all free to show up, new designs, new logos, new ideas... who knows, maybe you can create one, and everybody love it. and totjo swap logos.
again imo

Creating art that uses the logo is still a representation of the Temple regardless of where the material is used so unless we say only ever ever use that logo and never anything else (which I think i utterly silly) then it just comes down to official usage and unofficial usage.

The e-cards are created by other members and we decide to post them to our facebook page. Perhaps if we include say "Created by member......" [picture] that would get around it and give an indication that there are actually people contributing elsewhere.

Saying someone else created it would not be official representation but the Temple appreciating their artistic talent.