A Necessary Schism in Christianity

Before anyone gets riled up, I am not suggesting that Christian Jedi renounce their faith in Christ. Quite the opposite, actually. I myself am a Christian. However, I have at the same time come to the conclusion that I must leave Christianity.

What is Christianity? Well, in the broadest sense, it is the belief that Jesus Christ was the physical, earthly manifestation of God that that he came to earth to do several important things, among them, to establish the Church. There are countless theologies that argue over the meanings of his teachings, why he died, and what exactly his death means for us, but all Christians agree with the aforementioned definition.

I myself converted to Christianity (as in left the Christianity of my upbringing and established my own relationship with Christ) in 2010. After reading a lot of theology, as well as being influenced by Jediism and the Eastern religions I have studied, I decided that Universalism (the belief that all souls will be reconciled with God, rather than the exclusionist belief that non-Christians are tortured forever, seperated from God, annihilated, etc.) was the true path and I have maintained that conviction and belief ever since, and I will until my death, and even after that.

Now as to *why* we must leave. Mainstream Christianity today is not only horribly flawed, but is incompatible with both Jediism and the teachings of Christ. For one, the belief in eternal damnation. This shouldn't cause any controversy, because the beliefs of TOTJO reject this doctrine. The Temple Doctrine page states: "Jedi believe in eternal life. We do not become obsessed in mourning those who pass. Grieve as you will but take heart, for the soul and spirit continue in the netherworld of the Living Force." This statement completely opposes the belief in eternal death, damnation, or even the "moderate" Christian belief of annihilationism. The doctrine also states that we are to address evil influences in our own religions, and this is without a doubt the most evil and vile lie to infect the Church (by "Church," I mean Christianity as a whole).

Second, all Jedi, even non-Christian Jedi, understand the message of Christianity better than most Christians do. The main objective of Christianity is Theosis, which is a perfect union with God. This is identical to the Buddhist views of enlightenment (as well as achieving Nirvana after death), and can be compared the the concept of enlightenment in the other Dharmic religions. In Buddhist belief (as well as in original/true Christianity), mankind has fallen into a false reality, and to escape it, one must become enlightened. I know that, to some extent, the Eastern Orthodox and Methodist Churches of today teach a similar doctrine, but not the the extent that they should. On page 356 of Tale of the Bounty Hunters, Susejo explains this belief to Boba Fett while they hang in the Sarlacc:

"You and I, and everything else-we are merely a process, Boba Fett. A process that has named itself "I." Surely the Real exists, and we are an expression of it. But are you and I real? No. We are processes that have grown arrogant and broken apart from the Real. In time we shall be rejoined to it."

We seek enlightenment, theosis, deification, to be one with the Force. This is the ultimate destiny of all beings, and we cannot allow a heresy like the belief in Hell to invade Jediism.

Secondly, much of Christianity has become dualistic. This is mainly a problem in the evangelical/charismatic/"born again" Christianity here in the USA, but the belief in a very literal and active "Satan" exists, and a God/Satan dichotomy is drawn. There is only one Force. The Dark Side, as we call it, is not the opposite of the light, nor an opposing Force. This can be best summed up by Virgil's statement in The Divine Comedy, where he says that, the closer to perfection (Theosis) a person becomes, the more they feel of pleasure and pain. If one is strong in the Force, and they commit an evil act, their act has a very, very strong resonance within them. Remember that very, very few Sith in the SW canon were just Force Sensitive people that became Sith. Most of them were Jedi previously.

Third, Christianity has become political. Again, this may be just an American problem. You have the Christian Right (Nearly all Baptist demoninations, charismatics, pretty much all Evangelicals), a very strong Christian left (ELCA, Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church of America, etc), and moderates as well (United Methodist Church). I am a strong supporter of both the seperation of church and state, as well as freedom of thought, so I am against this trend. I see no particular single political direction in TOTJO, and I believe God has no political leaning, so this is yet another reason why we should leave mainstream Christianity.

Any thoughts will be welcome.

I believe you are right about the need to leave Mainstream Christianity. I myself have not been following any specific "branch" or ideological sect of Christianity. More than once, I've sat down, thought over some thing I had heard preached or taught, and think,"Is this REALLY what Christ wanted? Is this his meaning?" I usually end up sitting in a cool, relaxing place, and just thinking upon it, and letting myself just -feel- what I believe is right or wrong. This has usually turned out well.

I think the problem is dishonesty and cowardice. I think a good number of Christians don't believe in hell, or young-earth creationism, or that women should be subordinate to their husbands, but many sit silently, or even preach that garbage, to avoid trouble. That is one thing that I love about TOTJO and Jediism in general: freedom of thought.

I used to be at war with my past spiritual beliefs in Christianity because I never really felt at home in the teachings. It was merely forced on me with guilt. Being a southern baptist and attending a Christian school just confused me into somebody I wasn't. But in the light of the Force, I'm no longer at war with Christianity or the teachings of Christ. I don't defend myself against Christianity anymore, I accept it as a source of Force wisdom. The fundamentalists and the clergy will always annoy me but at least I can be at peace with the teachings as a whole.

At the end of the day I personally consider the entire landscape of most established religions only individual examples of how the subconscious mind can coherantly display a relationship to metaphysical/supernatural energies (to the conscious mind). Not necessarily representations of any single actual metaphysical or supernatural landscape. As a result, for me, all the talk of heavan and hell are constructs designed to teach people how to achieve some level of spirituality.

In this regard, (again this is all just my opinion!!) normal church's tend to be only introductory methodologies to give people awareness of spirituality rather then mastery of spirituality. That is why I like Jediism, because it goes beyond and is about actual self mastery.

That said though, if raised within a certain religion from a young age, then that spiritual symbology and landscape is probably already within your conscious and subconscious minds and so can serve as a pathway if you were to chose to believe that the metaphysical communicates via your subconscious - and as a result of that it might still have utility as a ground work for metaphysical pursuits. Just something to keep in mind (no pun intended).

So a Christian Jedi in my mind doesnt need to be a practising Christian, but rather could just be a Jedi who uses their exposure to Christianity as a means to a deeper relationship with the Force, but I'm getting into labels now :pinch:

I hope you dont read that like Im trying to change your mind, Im not, as I do also think people can let go of a religion and leave it behind if thats what they choose, without it undermining their progress forward. Congrats on making a decision though, that sort of decisive action is what really matters IMO.

I never use the term "heaven" to describe the enlightenment that we should hope to achieve, and most educated Christians feel the same way. It just sounds childish. I'm a Christian and a Jedi, and I believe the two are not only compatible, but are one in the same. I am calling on all Christian Jedi to address the heresy and poisonous beliefs and trends that have infiltrated Christianity, eternal damnation being chief among them. Just because I have found a place within TOTJO and perhaps the larger body of Jediism does not mean that I will, or perhaps even should, turn my back on the Christians who are still suffering under false beliefs and blasphemies which bring out the worst in people. While we must leave corrupted churches and have our home within the Jedi religion, we still should try to enlighten our fellow Christians, and try to actually make Christianity the religion of Christ. I mean, really, imagine if all Christians ACTUALLY followed the teachings Christ. That would be an idyllic scenario. If we can facilitate that, then we have done something. Anyway, here's some reading that I think is necessary for all Jedi Christians: http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/FromHellsEternalDeath.htm

It is interesting to read what you have to say about Christianity - my view is that the teachings vary hugely depending on which Christian doctrine you adhere to. Being from the UK Anglican community I am part of the Church of England, which doesn't really teach about eternal damnation and such things, and I'm fairly sure that most CofE clergy would say that they believe that everyone will be welcomed in heaven (although I agree with you that 'heaven' is not necessarily the best word), regardless of how they live their lives on Earth.

I think that the key thing really is to form your own ideas of what parts of the Bible to take literally and when to say 'OK, that was written by some guy thousands of years ago and he clearly just made it up on the spot so I don't really have to take it that seriously'. That kind of reading of the Bible is pretty much encouraged in the Church of England, particularly regarding passages about things like hell, creation, male-dominated society, all of Leviticus etc. Basically as long as you believe in God (and perhaps the Trinity and the resurrection), you can call yourself a Christian, don't take any notice of people telling what you have to believe about all the rest of it.

On the other hand, I'm not one of those people who tells people what to believe, and therefore, if you feel that your beliefs are not in accordance with Christianity, then you might be better off cutting yourself off from it. I find that following your instinct, whatever that may be, is usually the best way forward on spiritual matters.

Star Forge, I'll bet you know this quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mohandas Gandhi

I like what V-Tog has said on this topic and my views are similar. He was very eloquent in his response so I won't repeat what he said.

In my view, what's great about Jediism is that it allows each Jedi to take a religious buffet approach to all cultures, myths and teachings.

If a Jedi that is part of the Abrahamic rite doesn't believe in hell, more power to that Jedi and may the Force be with them. At this Temple, you don't have to believe in hell to be part of the Abrahamic rite. You can have a different definition of heaven, too, nobody is going to excommunicate you for that, haha.

MTFBWY,
LTK

I hope it didn't sound like I myself am in opposition to Christianity. I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever, I merely believe that the majority of sects/denominations have gone in blatantly false and wrong directions that are not in keeping with Jedi beliefs, and more importantly, Christian beliefs. I myself have begun attending a small (less that 10 people) study at a Baptist church, which is SO far removed from Southern Baptist doctrine that the majority of the church members would have us tarred and feathered if they knew what we were discussing. We mainly talk about what various religions have in common, for instance the fact that Buddhist and Christian morality are almost identical, or that Islam and Christianity have similar eschatologies, or the role of Jesus in Islam. Given my huge admiration for the philosophies of the Dharmic religions, I am glad that for once I am able to speak freely about them in a Christian setting. We even touched on Universalism, which is pretty much heresy in the SBC. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Christian Jedi should either reform their religious traditions, or leave them and fellowship with small groups of other Jedi, or just like-minded Christians. I'm personally doing the latter, but if any of you think you can be a reformer, that is admirable, because truth should never be obscured.

I was going to post this as another thread, but I think it is most appropriate here. The link below is to Eternal Hope, by FW Farrar. Farrar was a minister in the Church of England during the mid-late 1800s and is considered to be one of the champions of Universalism (the belief that all will be reconciled with God). I suggest that every Christian here read at least part of it, it's not terribly long. http://www.lvulvu.us/pdf/farrar.pdf

Star Forge wrote: I hope it didn't sound like I myself am in opposition to Christianity. I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever, I merely believe that the majority of sects/denominations have gone in blatantly false and wrong directions that are not in keeping with Jedi beliefs, and more importantly, Christian beliefs. I myself have begun attending a small (less that 10 people) study at a Baptist church, which is SO far removed from Southern Baptist doctrine that the majority of the church members would have us tarred and feathered if they knew what we were discussing. We mainly talk about what various religions have in common, for instance the fact that Buddhist and Christian morality are almost identical, or that Islam and Christianity have similar eschatologies, or the role of Jesus in Islam. Given my huge admiration for the philosophies of the Dharmic religions, I am glad that for once I am able to speak freely about them in a Christian setting. We even touched on Universalism, which is pretty much heresy in the SBC. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Christian Jedi should either reform their religious traditions, or leave them and fellowship with small groups of other Jedi, or just like-minded Christians. I'm personally doing the latter, but if any of you think you can be a reformer, that is admirable, because truth should never be obscured.

I do understand your concerns Star Forge and I can empathize with you as you struggle against a faith you believe has gone down a wrong path. The good thing is the Temple encourages you to change poor systems from within:

From the Temple Doctrine page: Jedi believe "In the importance of individual believers determining evil influences and policies within their chosen faith group, and advocate for their correction."

This may be your path and higher purpose (only you know for sure).

But I do want to comment on this: "I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever..."

I used to believe the same way about Mormonism. NOTHING in the world could've changed me from that path 10 years ago. Yet here I am: happy, at peace, and a Jedi. Pretty dang cool!

MTFBWY fellow Jedi!

-LTK

Many things to this day are unclear as to what the term Christanity is... (Just my Point of View, no on elses).

From the begining, the idea of the philosophy has and still is focused on Jesus and his teachings.
But when the Nician (SP?) council decided what was to be the religious text (The Bible), opinions, points of view and what are agreed, singular books used to make up the bible, left much out and that was the begining of not just one chirstian belief and it has continued to change over the decades and centuries, bringing the concept to people to seek what is for them.

I have been associated by birth, famiy, and choice around Protestant, Catholic, Nazarene, Russian Orthodox, non-denom, Mormon, etc. in my life. Pagan is a term in the begining, of the culture, ceremonies, way of life that were adopted and changed some to bring the fold of people to the church. So one could say nothing is permenent.

I call myself Christian, but my outlook may differ a bit from another, that is how it works in this world, and that is ok, and good...

Everything has it's purpose and this is just my view of things....

Everything we are and are to be is not what makes us happy in a material world, but rather in what we do to serve.

In my service to what I believe with Jediism included is who I am... Let your heart help you find your path.... I feel everything is between you and God (Higher Power, etc. and The Force).

I have always told those who come with a Christian background is, you have to find what is comfortable for you. It is your path, no one can choose it for you or follow it for you...

MTFBWYAAF

Neaj Pa Bol wrote: Many things to this day are unclear as to what the term Christanity is... (Just my Point of View, no on elses).

From the begining, the idea of the philosophy has and still is focused on Jesus and his teachings.
But when the Nician (SP?) council decided what was to be the religious text (The Bible), opinions, points of view and what are agreed, singular books used to make up the bible, left much out and that was the begining of not just one chirstian belief and it has continued to change over the decades and centuries, bringing the concept to people to seek what is for them.

I have been associated by birth, famiy, and choice around Protestant, Catholic, Nazarene, Russian Orthodox, non-denom, Mormon, etc. in my life. Pagan is a term in the begining, of the culture, ceremonies, way of life that were adopted and changed some to bring the fold of people to the church. So one could say nothing is permenent.

I call myself Christian, but my outlook may differ a bit from another, that is how it works in this world, and that is ok, and good...

Everything has it's purpose and this is just my view of things....

Everything we are and are to be is not what makes us happy in a material world, but rather in what we do to serve.

In my service to what I believe with Jediism included is who I am... Let your heart help you find your path.... I feel everything is between you and God (Higher Power, etc. and The Force).

I have always told those who come with a Christian background is, you have to find what is comfortable for you. It is your path, no one can choose it for you or follow it for you...

MTFBWYAAF

Glad you mentioned the way the way the Bible was composed. It's an intense point of debate among Christians as to which Bible translation is best (and to a select few radicals, which one is the real Bible), and many of us such as myself realize that it is not a single, infallable work, but has been subject to selectiveness on the part of the translators and scribes. The way I see it, Jesus is God, so if something in the Bible seems to go against his teachings, I don't follow it. Perhaps I'm just a heretic...

I believe Marcus Aurelius said it best, “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

As far as calling for a Schism in Christianity over differences in belief... hasn't there been enough of that already? I've always thought it would be better to unite the different sects of Christianity, as a united Church would be much more powerful than the current divided one we see today. There will probably never be complete agreement, as everyone's perceptions are different. Even knowing that the Christian Holy Book (for the word "bible" merely means "book") has been selectively edited over the centuries, there will still always be those that will take every word of it as absolute fact, meant to be taken literally word for word. There will be still others that see it as a book of parables, stories meant to show us how to live a good life. Then there's everyone that believes something somewhere in between those two extremes. Perhaps if we forgot about labels altogether and just lived a good life, treating others as we would like to be treated, honoring each other for our differences, then maybe, just maybe, we could be better "_____" (filled in with whatever label you choose). Or just better humans. That's a pretty good label that fits everyone.

While I would like to see all Christians get along, sometimes getting along is not the most desirable thing. I mean, if getting along with someone means being indifferent to bad things they are doing, and showing apathy toward injustice, then I'd prefer an eternal war. A united church would be horribly bad! Look at the state of Christianity when there was only the Catholic church: all dissenters or people who politely disagreed were killed and/or tortured.

I guess I just wrote out of anger. The quote in your post was right on, by the way. It just astonishes me how tons of people can make God look like a tyrant, and at the same time claim he is not and then be assholes, because that's what they say God wants them to do.

Sorry I sound mad, I'm a recovering Southern Baptist

While I agree that modern mainstream Christianity has vastly missed the mark in regards to Christ-like behavior, I disagree (from a biblical perspective, and not one of doctrine) with what I understood of your statements.

For example, I have a hard time believing that something like Hell isn't integral to Christianity, since Christ Himself spoke of it on quite a regular basis; most of the red ink spilled on those holy pages is spent either warning of the wages of sin and the hereafter, or discussing how He is the only path by which to avoid said state of existence.

steamboat28 wrote: While I agree that modern mainstream Christianity has vastly missed the mark in regards to Christ-like behavior, I disagree (from a biblical perspective, and not one of doctrine) with what I understood of your statements.

For example, I have a hard time believing that something like Hell isn't integral to Christianity, since Christ Himself spoke of it on quite a regular basis; most of the red ink spilled on those holy pages is spent either warning of the wages of sin and the hereafter, or discussing how He is the only path by which to avoid said state of existence.

Christ didn't speak of it in a literal sense, and that's pretty obvious. The Old Testament doesn't speak of it either. There are words like "Sheol" and "Gehenna," which refer to death and the grave, but in many bible translations it is translated as Hell/Hades, both of which come from European paganism (Germanic and Greek, respectively). Hell is clearly an imported concept that is foreign to Judeo-Christian beliefs. In early Christianity, those who came from long established Christian families generally believed in universal reconciliation, while those who believed in hell were often converts from other religions. Origen is a good example of this.

Look at how many Christians today see the light. Universal reconciliation is a key belief of Eastern Orthodoxy (google Hilarion Alfeyev to see what I mean). I myself am looking into the United Methodist Church, which considers universal reconciliation to be a possibility.

And then there are the many Christians who, despite not being universalists nonetheless do not accept the doctrine of Hell. C.S. Lewis, for example,considered universalism to be a possibility, but insisted that if Hell exists in some manner of speaking, it is certainly not a place of eternal torment. The Church of England teaches annihilationism. Even the Catholic church denies that hell is a literal place.

I know you've probably been told that any kind of denial of hell is just wishful thinking, but look at the people behind the doctrines. I'd rather side with F.W. Farrar and Origen than Jerry Fatass Falwell.

Regardless of the nature of Hell, or its origins (which aren't Greek, but are rather traced from Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian captivity of Christianity's parent religion), the fact remains that Christ set himself as a limiter of salvation; the only doorway and the narrow path whereby believers may enter into true and eternal Communion with the Father. Since Christ, his teachings, and those roles specifically are the foundation, keystone, and linchpin of Christianity--they are what makes Christians Christian--it seems to me they should be treated with more than a flippant nod. Otherwise, we're not Christian at all, just a non-messianic Abrahamic sect.

i agree because the religion needs to teach love thats the only rule in the universe.

I'm not a Christian, so this is merely the two cents from someone on the other side of the fence.

Christian. To me, "Of Christ". The church, I figure, has lost its way, corrupted by the trappings of power. The Roman Catholic Empire and the Church of England Schisms saw to that.

There needs to be a reformation if any hope is to be recovered. Go back to the original teachings and make them fit the current world. That's why we're here in the first place, isn't it? To adapt something to fit our world? Peace, tolerance, all the stuff that makes it the Good Book.

Cast away the downright intolerance that the hardliners cry out whenever they're opposed. Join the real world and further the cause of good, and light, in the world.

Or not. Your choice, ultimately. Even the Vatican is noticing lowering attendance in its churches. There's a book I'd definitely recommend: "Why Christianity Must Change- Or Die. by John Shelby Spong, a bishop(?) in America, who lived through a lot of controversial times.