God of Love, God of Justice

Sometime between 18-22 I discovered this video, I think one of my sister's shared it with me.



This idea sustained me for a long time, it was particularly therapeutic to think of God as an all-loving cuddly Pooh-bear-type in that period of my life because I was beginning to see the threads of my ultra-conservative, fundamentalist, Pentacostal (the dancing, speaking in tongues-type) upbringing coming apart. I was starting to see people's realities that didn't track well with what I been raised to believe.

Isaiah 56 of the English Standard Version (ESV) says that anyone who keeps the Sabbath and keep the covenant of the Lord will be saved, particularly addressing the foreigners and eunuchs.

Malachi 3:5 of the ESV says that the sins that would bring imminent destruction upon Israel were sorcery, adultery, liars (those who swear falsely); oppressors of the workers, widows, and orphans.

And, in tying that to the New Testament, lest anyone try to say that was an Old Testament thing:

James 1:27 of the ESV says that a pure and undefiled religion before God is to take care orphans and Widows, and to keep yourself unstained by the world.

Matthew 25:36-40 of the ESV says that whoever feeds the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, clothes the naked, and visits the prisoner has also done these things to the Lord.

From these and many other passages (the entire book of Malachi and Hosea is great for this) I came to see God not so much a God of love, though I would say They are still a God of love, but a God of Eternal Justice.

And even though I walked away from Christianity, studying the Qur'an has been such an incredible experience to see a continuity of Allah's desire for justice is present in Qur'anic Scripture. The idea of Allah as the Omniscient Accountant, the one who knows all, sees all, and yet tempers Their wrath with an open invitation to follow Allah. Sura 1:1 which is also the Basmala says, "In the name, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful". Later in the same sura, Sura 1:4 , Allah is also the Master of Judgment Day.

Anyway, I think I've dropped enough of seed to start a discussion.

i like the hindu idea of brahma vishinu and shiva

a way of making these characters translatable to the abrahamic disciplines might be to say we ought to have reverence for gods creation

respect for the inherent sustainability and self regulation and preservation of the overal natural systems he created

and the proccess of physiological mortality which we entered into as a result of our choice to claim knowledge of good and evil

death and predation are an inherent part of the system he created

when we approach the topic of justice i cant help but make another correlation between the two faiths
by indicating what i see as a paralell between mammon and maya

maya being simply a more sophisticated articulation of the same essential phenomena imo

from this perspective
and from the christian perspective of human being as essentially seperated from god
as a natural condition of being human,

as far as JUSTICE is concerned i see this as being something which a mature psychology understands as being the standard by which i/we will be judged by god,

but not so much the standard by which they/we/i should, or even CAN, judge or measure others

basically
i see it as my responsibility to act in a just fashion
and i see it as gods responsibility to determine who is just and who is not

also i do not consider christianity to be an abrahamic religion

i see it as the solution to the abrahamic worldview

the concept of salvation is the mechanism by which "we" are freed from the obligatory heaviness of all the rules and conditions and rituals an atonement ect ect

once the sacrafice is accepted the result is true freedom

there is no way to fail at that point
we can walk through hell and even play with the devil but we will never be corrupted or wholly consumed by it

redemption basically gives us a free pass to make mistakes and to build our lives how we want as well as giving us the power to achieve the impossible

this by its very nature means that we will probably get carried away from time to time because salvation does not imo give us immunity from foolishness

but rather leg room so to speak so that we can be fearless in playing our part and finding our wings and when we err its ok, just keep going because everything you do is empowered and sanctified even if youre doing it "wrong"

so for this reason also the idea of justice is something i feel is a personal relationship with god between each of us as individuals and not so much as standards to apply to others

its ok for us to say "dont pee in the drinking water"
but its not ok for us to say "dont pee"

Jamie Stick wrote: (the dancing, speaking in tongues-type)

You rang?

Malachi 3:5 of the ESV says that the sins that would bring imminent destruction upon Israel were sorcery, adultery, liars (those who swear falsely); oppressors of the workers, widows, and orphans.

The translation of this word is, and has been for many centuries, up in the air.

And even though I walked away from Christianity, studying the Qur'an has been such an incredible experience to see a continuity of Allah's desire for justice is present in Qur'anic Scripture.

I don't see how the differentiation between "God of Love" and "God of Justice" comes in; justice is benevolence. That said, there's a lot about Christian theology that comes into question if you focus solely on the latter at the expense of the former.

OB1Shinobi wrote: death and predation are an inherent part of the system he created
[hr]
from the christian perspective of human being as essentially seperated from god
as a natural condition of being human

These statements are unsupported by Christian scripture. That's not to say they aren't fact, it's just that Christian scripture does not, in any way, support these two statements.

also i do not consider christianity to be an abrahamic religion

i see it as the solution to the abrahamic worldview

...pardon?

steamboat28 wrote: The translation of this word is, and has been for many centuries, up in the air.

You don't need to tell me twice. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that the usage of the word sorcery has a troubled past.

steamboat28 wrote: I don't see how the differentiation between "God of Love" and "God of Justice" comes in; justice is benevolence. That said, there's a lot about Christian theology that comes into question if you focus solely on the latter at the expense of the former.

I don't really see the problem there, but I make the distinction because the Qur'an doesn't really talk about God's love for humanity. God is many things, but loving (at least in the sense that Christians think of it) is not one that comes up. I will admit that there may be undertones of God's love for humanity in the Arabic that I'm unaware of since I am reading it secondhand, but then again I also do that with the Bible. What I wanted to bring out and open up for discussion is the idea that justice is theme common to all three conceptions of who God is: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an.

contemporary christian thought is that man is born into sin and that our inherent nature is sinful

to me that is what i mean when i say "seperate from god as condition of being human"

frogs predator bugs
snakes predator frogs
birds predator snakes
cats predator birds
man predator cats
bugs predator man

and the lion king sings


according to the explanation of the gospel that i was given

jesus sets you free

once youre free youre free

the masterdoesnt get to reclaim you once youve been set free, even if he doesnt like what you do with the freedom

now that jesus has redeemed you its ok to go out and live your life

you dont even have to think about jesus anymore if you dont want to

the deals done and he keeps his part of the bargain

now drop all that human silliness and go be the perfect empowered being you were meant to be

Which, with all due respect, OB, is not what the Bible says nor how the majority of Christian doctrines understand it, afaik. All (but one) sin can be forgiven according to scripture, yet nowhere does it say that they all are, and the entire idea of damnation, or more specifically eternal agony after death only came with the New Testament wherein it is very clear that to trust in the saviour is the least you have to do (though it may not be quite enough, depending on where you read). The book doesn't just say that Jesus came, saved us all, and so now we can get away with anything including unbelief. It does say the opposite.

Jamie, FYI, the Qur'an does call Allah 'The Loving'. In fact, that is one of the 99 Names of God. The word is Al-Wadud and is found in the Hud and Al-Buruj Surahs. Setting aside the narratives and countless warnings against his wrath, there are other names that suggest properties of a more affectionate kind and relationship with us, such as Al-Rahman, Al-Latif, Al-Wali and Al-Ra'uf.

many christians are confused about their own religion

they say salvation cant be bought or earned it can only be accepted through jesus and then they say you have to buy it and earn it with obedience and righteousness

they say jesus is our role model and then that we can never be like him because he was fundamentally different from us

jesus said something about us being gods and no one wants to talk about it

jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within

jesus said "greater works that these will you do in my name"

jesus said if you dont give up and leave behind everything you own to follow me then you cannot be my disciple

jesus said
many will say "HEY JESUS IT ME HOMIE YA BEST BUD MR RIGHTEOUS WHADDUP BRODUDEMAN AINT WE RIHTEOUS AND WISE?"
and i will say "dude who the heaven are you? i dont know you man back off or im gonna tell my dad"
or something like that

ive read the bible and ive listened to a lot of christians say a lot of things
and what i have decided is that most of the christians that tried to teach me the truth didnt even know what their own religion said was true

my interpretation is the best interpretation ive ever heard and my interpretation isnt even mine its gods
he told me so when i asked him

he also told me not to listen to these goofballs down here

he said that was their problem
theyre listening to each other and not to him

i said "yeah thats why i asked you, thanks god!"

For fun open the Bible and Quran in text format and select and replace the key titles for God, Lord etc into feminine titles. The whole things reads so much more sensible in a 'mother' approach then the father approach. The kewl thing about it then is that all the warmongering destructive and isolationist parts seem to stand out a little more as foreign (and irrelevant) from the positive general vibe which seems to be the basis of Abrahamic religions - which would otherwise fit in as language of the times and become absorbed by radical interpretations. So in that regard I'd see God not as an old white dude, but more a motherly/feminine or gender neutral manifestation of pure love. I suppose I could say instead 'parental' but the mother does have a more intimate relationship with creation by gestation, birth and breastfeeding which to me can translate more easily across the range of spiritual association, experience and refulgence.

^
god told me to tell you that he just told us thats hes also a she

is it bad to wonder which locker room god uses?

i'm thinking the "little omnipotent's" room :woohoo:

OB, just because you think you are God in the flesh doesn't make it so. I have yet to meet a Christian who would say that his interpretation is different or at least conflicts with God's actual meaning. Rather all of them, without exception had their interpretation either revealed to them or approved by God. It is also somewhat telling that you would first tell us that you took your interpretation from your father before you would mention that it is the God-approved one. Why would that be? In any case, while hearing voices isn't exactly a hallmark of health, many people do and there is no shame in it. It is however massively arrogant to assert that not only can you tell without testing an auditory hallucination from a genuine voice but that the former must also be the voice of the creator and master of the universe himself (or herself, considering where the thread went) despite the fact that we know with measurable precision where inside your skull those things are generated.

I agree that most who profess the Christian faith know little to nothing about it and if I accepted the most basic of theological precepts I'd reckon that almost all of their interpretations are dead wrong about the rest of it. Anyway, I don't know whether you have 'the best one', because all of them seem to think so about their own, too and what they universally point to is either an ancient book collection, some half as ancient scholars or their own private conversations with the most supreme of beings. What I do know is a few basic principles of a good number of traditional Christian doctrines and a few things about their basis in the Bible. Now maybe God has changed his mind, which would contradict at least one passage I know from the book, but then he wouldn't be much of a person if he (or she) were bound by a book, would he? All I can say is that the interpretation you offered above was partially in conflict with said book and that is frankly a matter of literary analysis rather than the things The Great And Powerful whispers into your ears.

On to Adder's post.
Neither a father nor a mother, in an ideal case, anyway, would condition their love by the child's submission and surrender to them. Indeed, ideally the opposite should be the case: They would love the child even if that child came to hate them. That is not what either the Bible or the Qur'an say. The positive general vibe (as you put it) in the Bible is that God really loves his people (and only in the later addendum we call the New Testament does he suddenly love all people, at least in some places) if and only if they love him first and submit to either his rules (Old Testament) or both his rules and his incarnation (New Testament) with the rules (all except one) as a condition being debatable with the New Testament.
The positive general vibe (as you put it) in the Qur'an is that Allah will love you if and only if you love him first and submit to him and his Messenger. If you do not believe however, Allah will punish you in this world and the next in the most gruesome of ways and without mercy. Replace him with a female title and you will have not a gentle mother but a monster next to whom Lady Tremaine makes a model loving parent.

the biggest difference between you and me gisteron is that i do my best to take heart to my delusions and you take your delusions to heart!

god just told me to tell you that she tells us all a different version of the same story
and that its ok if our stories dont all look alike on the surface

At least she doesn't tell you not to lie, otherwise this would be mildly awkward, would it not?

I literally don't know where this conversation went while I was napping.

I have some declaration to share with you all. When I finish my study.
Only to say that God is more like the Force. No male and no female.
A lot of abominations wish to be worship like God is by all his Creation in the universe.
Adam knew all that. Lilith was one bitch that don't love her ",only" man.
Ok thats enough for today. I respect ranks and I got to study because I want to be a Jedi Knight.
May the Force enlight our path.

I also don't think God is a women, but that it's a closer representation for prior stated reasons.

Gisteron wrote: The positive general vibe (as you put it) in the Qur'an is that Allah will love you if and only if you love him first and submit to him and his Messenger. If you do not believe however, Allah will punish you in this world and the next in the most gruesome of ways and without mercy. Replace him with a female title and you will have not a gentle mother but a monster next to whom Lady Tremaine makes a model loving parent.

I was getting at that some elements become evidently out of place with the positive vibe, not that the positive elements are negative elements!? I tend to think its nigh impossible the document is unchanged over time, and unlikely its divine inspiration as described, so instead look for what best can represent truth, and discard irrelevancy through a process of careful experiential based analysis
:silly:

Speaking of vibes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJuXIq7OazQ

:lol:

If a God has a role in justice then I think we'd see something of it's action, and if it's out of sight then it seems a stretch to ask people to have faith in a system which has been communicated to them be fellow humans. I tend to go as far as some energetic concept like karma which is based around balance and equivalency in a complex sea of relationships, but this is the Abrahamic section - so I'll stick with vibes.

:laugh:
The vibe... Thats a good one. I am just based on what story teach us along this thousands years.
Something we should all read it's the "Emerald Tablet of Thot". Just beware of that fruit there a missings tablet.
(and probably personal interpretation)

Also this it's a good story for kids. Anyway we are all kids of someone.
(how adult speak of reality to kid?)


Hidden Human History Movie - Hypothesis for Consi… : http://youtu.be/uAm-kbzT7xw

One could take the positive vibe or the general vibe. One could cherry pick the book for the occasional good thing and discard 80%+ of it as 'out of place'.

I tend to not do that. Even if the book was generally positive with a few wicked passages, there would not be an excuse for those, but instead it is generally rife with evil, short of the passages that are outside of discussion of morality, like statements of fact most of which are falsehoods, with only a few bits of seemingly decent phrases desperately shining through their occasional muffled glint, so there is not really much of a case for a both general and positive vibe, if we went just by the text.

i really like the bible

i consider it a wisdom texts as much as anything else

and light said let there be god

BANG!
something smaller than a moleculetoenail expanded into a universe in the time it takes to look up into the skay and recognize a constellation

and the garden, the idea of human in perfection but also a sort of simple ignorance

the idea that it was knowledge - especially The Knowledge of Good and Evil (or maybe positive and negative - right and wrong - maybe just the knowledge of duality itself? i dont say "i know you should belive this belive that" i say "this is great this is insigtful even if the insight is mine or yours)

and the serpent - a symbol of wisdom - asociated with satan whose name means the adversary - rooted in the word adversity - and opposer or opposition and accuser - associated with the fallen who is accused of battle with heaven and whose name is lucifer bringer/bearer of LIGHT
and jesus who IS the light
"god is light" is a quote from the NT

fiber optics?
light as information?
what if information is all there is?
in the begining was the word
let there be knowledge


what about the ralationships of jacob and esau and cain and abel?

recurring themes of hunter - gatherer culture being displaced by agri culture? thats a popular interpretation

the book ishmael by daniel quinn was pretty cool -its got a telepathic monkey and who doesnt love THOSE?

david had the first known special forces units made from men who could hit a strand of hair with a stone slung from either hand

jona wasnt swallowed by a whale he was running from his lifes responsibities
which really means his natural talents as a person
which we all have
and i understand this because i did it myself and a whale swallowed me too because of it

ecclasiasies why is wise man better than the fool - for there is no more rememberence of the wise than of the fool forever and ever and in the end how does the wise man die? just like the fool! vanity of vanities - all is vanity and chasing after the wind

someone once told me that in traditional hebrew culture of the general time of jesus the body was considered to have a "clean" side and a "dirty" side (which is a recurrinv theme in human thought although in other traditions such as nagualism its much more profound and empowering)

in this context "turn the other cheek" is explained as being "to hit me again you will have to dirty yourself" which is a powerful form of civil disobedience and standing on human dignity

i dont know if that is the "correct" interpretation in the eyes of people who think there IS a "correct" interpretation - or more to the point of those who think there is an INCORRECT interpretation

but its a GOOD interpretation and i LIKE it

and sarach gave tons of great insight about life and society

how many bible heroes were Power Dreamers?
from the very begining it was Power Dreamers who god revealed wisdom to and seleced for greatness so if you really want to serve god get serious about your dream life ?

i could go on and on

the bible is cool