Jedi Philosophy

Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed? You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order. May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

I'm sure you've had all the time in the world to judge our philosophy based on all of the conversations you've had with us during the past hour or so since your registration, and came to the conclusion that "us guys" need to reconsider things.

That being said, I have some questions, too:
First of all, where did you read that Jedi believe in justice? The doctrine mentions it once, namely as one of the 21 Maxims. The flavour text to that maxim makes no statement about the death penalty one way or the other. The one line in the entire doctrine that says anything about the death penalty is the second of the "Jedi Believe" section, a section that says nothing about justice.
Secondly, what about the death penalty is so obviously just that anyone who believes in justice must automatically be in favour of it also? Who exactly declared that this punishment was appropriate for killing or rape, what was their reasoning, and how is their opinion obligatory to share in everyone else's conception of justice?
Thirdly, even if one were to grant that there is an inconsistency here - something you have yet to demonstrate - where exactly do you gather that a moral framework must be entirely self-consistent? Most people have a general sense of fairness, and many also generally value life or bodily autonomy (two ideals that are themselves in conflict often enough). Obviously in some cases these two can conflict, like when we consider how to treat those among us who do not respect such things. What is not obvious is that this conflict must be resolved in exactly one way and not the other, even in any one individual case. Why, assuming that killing a murderer is the just thing to do, does that justness matter more in that moment than the murderer's life? For that matter, why would their life be more valuable than justice?

I think it is a bit rash to dismiss an entire discussion and to pretend like the answer is clear and yours is clearly the right answer. People much smarter than either of us have been debating questions like this for millennia by now. To expect a simple answer to such a complicated question I think is at best unwarranted, and at worst - exploitable. Neither the Jedi of this Temple, nor more broadly, are perfect, either individually or collectively, not by any means. If what you seek is the "correct" philosophy, you won't be finding it here. If you are looking for a place that broadly agrees with yours, then, too, this is probably not it. The most I can say to encourage you is that we tend here to not take ourselves so much seriously as to dismiss the other. I find that one should never be quite that sure of oneself, that one wouldn't listen in the hopes of learning more. Nobody will expel you for believing in the death penalty, and maybe through a well-constructed argument some will even come to agree with you, or appreciate your position for the thought that went into forming it, if any did. Likewise, you too may learn why some people think the way you do, or a different way, by making an effort to find out.
Welcome to TOTJO.

I believe that rapists and murderers should be killed. Sex offenders especially ruin the lives of their victims. Murderers end lives. I know the statement you found regarding the death penalty, that the organization doesn’t believe in the death penalty but members are not expected to believe in everything the organization does. However, if this is not correct please let me know and I’ll leave.

I think anytime we consider killing someone "a hard and fast rule" is foolish. Here is an example why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney. I personally lose respect for the character of people who think the right time to end another life is so easy to decide.

rugadd wrote: I think anytime we consider killing someone "a hard and fast rule" is foolish. Here is an example why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney. I personally lose respect for the character of people who think the right time to end another life is so easy to decide.

At the risk of lost respect, I only agree with your option partly.

I agree, that a "hard and fast" decision to execute offenders in the legal system denies both the offender and victim true; lasting justice. I feel that our current legal system is far too emotionally invested in the cases presented to it, and as such that emotional influence does a disservice to all parties involved.

However, where it concerns matters of combat/battle I have to disagree. A split second of hesitation on regards of moral dilemma can result in serious injury or death. In cases such as the above, "shoot first & ask questions later" is a preferred ideology simply out of an imperative to continue living.

I don't differentiate between my own need to continue living and others, so perhaps I am the wrong one too make that point too. Then again, I have zero life threatening combat experiences to reference. I like to think there is always an option, but I am also not foolish enough to think people won't kill each other. We do it all the time, for some pretty dumb reasons. But that is not really what we are discussing. I thought we were talking about the death penalty, not killing each other in general.

EDIT: I thought I might add that I recently retired from tournament fighting and have had my fair share of street level scraps. I understand from personal experience the feelings that are involved in combat. I never once felt i needed to kill the other person, even when i was jumped in an alley. It didn't come to it, but the worse thing i was going to do was kick his knee in so i could get away.

TrentonR wrote: Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed? You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order. May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

Welcome to the Temple.
Thank you for the question as well.
In this world you will always be rules, lines, sides and ideas that conflict or even better , work. Some parallel some don’t. With codes and Koans and Maxims out there all from different places and people and cultures and ways- it’s up to US - the WE- to each person - the how - to do it. How we see the day - that’s up and given to each of us. Each Modern day Jeddist can pick and choose the “HOW” of our own choices - RARELY some one else’s.
One of the best but most difficult things for me to understand was- how can I make my choices and ideas when it seems like some days in my circle- I’m the only one and actually - do and live with them. I’m a very” home-ey “ type of person by choice. Can I function when no one else can or everybody else can - can I still learn when I find others don’t or do better than me? Do the things I notice now- keep or hold me?
Big questions
Real questions for real people
Welcome to the Temple again. You ARE a breath of fresh air.
May the Force continue to be with you.

I have no problem with it. There are traumas that people do to others such as rape, throwing acid on peoples faces, etc that should not be excused. And what about the victims justice? The victim must live in hell or end it themselves while their attacker lives a happy life...just goes on their merry way. I don’t think so. People are to concerned over the rights of the perpetrator and not the victim.

So George Stinny's story didn't bother you at all?

*scratching head*

"God Bless America"

That's a common CHRISTIAN phrase. I'm sorry if I find some sort of irony of someone who appears to be Christian saying the day before Good Friday- and just before the weekend of Christ's Resurrection celebration, that he believes rapists and killers should be killed.

Yes, yes, I am fully aware that Christ did not come to change the law (Matthew 5:17). However, there are many other factors to be considered. There were allowances afforded to even murderers- if they could get to a sanctuary city, for example. Or if they repented. Even in the story of Christ saving a young adulterous woman from being stoned, we see that it is not our place to condemn- but instead, Christ directed to forgive when someone asks for forgiveness. And if one does not, God shall not forgive them their own trespasses (Matthew 6:15).

While Capital Punishment may seem like it is the solid punishment, it isn't actually informed by Christian values- for if it were anyone who repented of their sins before they reached their final day, they would be spared the death penalty and even released from prison. Instead, it is based on a blind justice system that is, by its very nature, untrusting of the sincerity of a criminal.

Where, in its theory, I have no problems with Capital Punishment because not all value systems are created equal within a melting pot and it would satisfy most problems; the truth is that it is not executed in practice the way it should be done in theory. But as a Christian, I find that Capital Punishment lacks the same value system God imposes within the OT and Christ teaches into the NT.

So I hope that you'll excuse my laughter, TrentonR, that you would come in with a Christian phrase and in the same post say that you cannot support a group that would allow Rapists and Murders to live- just mere hours from the time that we are called to remember Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross, and mere days before his Resurrection which served as proof that he was indeed the Messiah.

No idea if the OP will ever return or went through the whole sign up process just to troll, anyway-

I'll break it down, for the OP, and any other passers by...

Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed?

Justice and your moral outrage are not the same thing

You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order.

I don't know about the other Jedi in the world, but I don't need to do jack and unless I missed a memo, neither Jedi, nor TotJO are going out of their way to recruit - in short, Jog on

May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

assalamu alaykum.

Alethea Thompson wrote: *scratching head*

"God Bless America"

That's a common CHRISTIAN phrase. I'm sorry if I find some sort of irony of someone who appears to be Christian saying the day before Good Friday- and just before the weekend of Christ's Resurrection celebration, that he believes rapists and killers should be killed.

Yes, yes, I am fully aware that Christ did not come to change the law (Matthew 5:17). However, there are many other factors to be considered. There were allowances afforded to even murderers- if they could get to a sanctuary city, for example. Or if they repented. Even in the story of Christ saving a young adulterous woman from being stoned, we see that it is not our place to condemn- but instead, Christ directed to forgive when someone asks for forgiveness. And if one does not, God shall not forgive them their own trespasses (Matthew 6:15).

While Capital Punishment may seem like it is the solid punishment, it isn't actually informed by Christian values- for if it were anyone who repented of their sins before they reached their final day, they would be spared the death penalty and even released from prison. Instead, it is based on a blind justice system that is, by its very nature, untrusting of the sincerity of a criminal.

Where, in its theory, I have no problems with Capital Punishment because not all value systems are created equal within a melting pot and it would satisfy most problems; the truth is that it is not executed in practice the way it should be done in theory. But as a Christian, I find that Capital Punishment lacks the same value system God imposes within the OT and Christ teaches into the NT.

So I hope that you'll excuse my laughter, TrentonR, that you would come in with a Christian phrase and in the same post say that you cannot support a group that would allow Rapists and Murders to live- just mere hours from the time that we are called to remember Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross, and mere days before his Resurrection which served as proof that he was indeed the Messiah.

I’m not Christian. I believe people must be held responsible for their actions. Religion must never be factored into making laws. If that were the case people to do whatever they wanted to others because their “sin” was “paid for” by Jesus. I don’t believe in any Religion. And I certainly don’t want that to diminish justice I could get.

JamesSand wrote: No idea if the OP will ever return or went through the whole sign up process just to troll, anyway-

I'll break it down, for the OP, and any other passers by...

Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed?

Justice and your moral outrage are not the same thing

You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order.

I don't know about the other Jedi in the world, but I don't need to do jack and unless I missed a memo, neither Jedi, nor TotJO are going out of their way to recruit - in short, Jog on

May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

assalamu alaykum.

So, you believe justice and “your moral outrage are not the same thing”? You know nothing about that person. What if s/she was raped? Or a loved one was murdered? Do you get to decide what justice is for a rapist or murderer? What if a sexual assault ruined the life of the victim? Would a slap on the wrist and a “poor you” to the victim be justice because ‘you’ happen think it’s just “moral outrage”?

I had an attempted sexually assault when I was 18 by a person who was my best friend for years. He wanted to get me pregnant to “lock me in” before I went to college. This happened over 20 years ago and my feelings about it have not changed. I would rather die than be forced to have a kid. Luckily I had a broken plastic fork that I was prepared to defend myself with lethal force. Luckily, he broke off the attempted assault when I fought. So don’t you dare tell me that what I see as justice is just “moral outrage”. Abusers would love to live in a world where the damage of victims is belittled and they get a slap on the wrist no matter the hell the victims endure. This attitude of protecting rapists and murders is a deliberate slap in the face to victims.

rugadd wrote: So George Stinny's story didn't bother you at all?

#1 I don’t take anything seriously from Wikipedia

#2 The fact that most rape victims don’t get justice doesn’t bother you? Or the people whose loved one was murdered? The person who killed them gets to keep on drawing breath and living happily with the knowledge the society so more fit to protect them then the victim. That’s ok and desirable to you?

It reminds me of how In high school the bullies don’t get in trouble for assaulting people but if the victim retaliates they are the ones who get in trouble. That sends a clear message to the bullies doesn’t it?

It still amazes me how so many “Jedi” are more concerned with protecting violent offenders than victims.

We can get this topic full but not this one - hmm
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/world-events/123720-what-s-that-sound#350857



Can we function while others function as well.
Who says - where doses It say “we as a modern day Jedi Must all be the same.
I wish some days we could just preach that and others understood, rather than argue all day.

Application and moral are for people. Jedi character is one of the hardest things for me and others to create and immulate. Why is that ? Because it’s usually up to that ONE person.

We are just people. The special part in us is that we choose to be different. That’s all. How is up to us.
My hope is we ALL figure how to act, react and create more than tear down but build.

OUR chosen philosophy is what you have chosen. Think about that. Our side is what you eventually choose so....
yea some times - we look human. . . But there’s more !!!!
Keep your eyes open and your hearts as well - or not.
May the Force continue to be with y’all where y’all seek it and where ya don’t .

Claiomh Solais wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: *scratching head*

"God Bless America"

That's a common CHRISTIAN phrase. I'm sorry if I find some sort of irony of someone who appears to be Christian saying the day before Good Friday- and just before the weekend of Christ's Resurrection celebration, that he believes rapists and killers should be killed.

Yes, yes, I am fully aware that Christ did not come to change the law (Matthew 5:17). However, there are many other factors to be considered. There were allowances afforded to even murderers- if they could get to a sanctuary city, for example. Or if they repented. Even in the story of Christ saving a young adulterous woman from being stoned, we see that it is not our place to condemn- but instead, Christ directed to forgive when someone asks for forgiveness. And if one does not, God shall not forgive them their own trespasses (Matthew 6:15).

While Capital Punishment may seem like it is the solid punishment, it isn't actually informed by Christian values- for if it were anyone who repented of their sins before they reached their final day, they would be spared the death penalty and even released from prison. Instead, it is based on a blind justice system that is, by its very nature, untrusting of the sincerity of a criminal.

Where, in its theory, I have no problems with Capital Punishment because not all value systems are created equal within a melting pot and it would satisfy most problems; the truth is that it is not executed in practice the way it should be done in theory. But as a Christian, I find that Capital Punishment lacks the same value system God imposes within the OT and Christ teaches into the NT.

So I hope that you'll excuse my laughter, TrentonR, that you would come in with a Christian phrase and in the same post say that you cannot support a group that would allow Rapists and Murders to live- just mere hours from the time that we are called to remember Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross, and mere days before his Resurrection which served as proof that he was indeed the Messiah.

I’m not Christian. I believe people must be held responsible for their actions. Religion must never be factored into making laws. If that were the case people to do whatever they wanted to others because their “sin” was “paid for” by Jesus. I don’t believe in any Religion. And I certainly don’t want that to diminish justice I could get.

Theism = Religion. I had a former hunters-ed instructor who while openly Athiest, would often say how he "had religion" through a foundation of hunting / outdoor safety protocols. Religion is in practice a deeply held set of ideals, beliefs, and practices which create a foundation for daily activity.

I am not Christian either, but can still appreciate the irony of the post originally quoted based on my understanding of Christian teachings.

To also build off James mention at the end of his post; I have found thus far that Christians (seem to) have a mindset of God being in service to them, whereas Muslims (seem to) have a mindset of being in service to God. I have encountered many Christians, and many Muslims as well; while I do not share either of their beliefs, I would rather interact with Muslims on any given occasion.

Much of our legal system, and societal structure in the U.S is built off a corrupted Christian ideology. The bill of rights, declaration of independence, and other pivotal documents were composed through influence of that ideology.

Due to that corruption, we have had to amend those documents multiple times in our nations history (thus far), for things such as abolishing slavery; granting women the right to vote - which had been advocated for and requested since colonial times, illegalizing alcohol, legalizing alcohol, right to a speedy & public trial, etc.

There are already an embarrassing and sobering number of individuals who have after execution, been found not guilty of the crimes charged as a result of additional evidence. There are even more who have served lifetimes in prison as a result of corrupted trials and hidden evidence.

We need to take more consideration in the application of justice, not less.

... and truthfully the Jedi philosophy of Justice it self is a tough one. How do you hold your own moral while others hold theirs - that may parallel but not quite or even better some time polar opposite our very own? Ya gunna loose your mind every time you notice nothings the same all the time, because I used to freak out when some one messed with my cheese- not so much now but it rules me some days.
Jedi Justice
There’s a good one I hope we can all be ready for when the question is asked- what’s Jedi justice ? Why the hand in the movies ? What’s equivalent in real life? What parallels that -if - it does for some. ?
Hmm
Do these questions unravel us or re arrange us? Do they hold or hurt or heal or free - that’s the Modern day Jedi stuff I like myself.
Hence I’m still here for it - smiley face

So because someone killed someone else it is justifiable to kill that person?
Two wrongs suddenly make a right?

I do not think so. You become just as a murderer as the man you killed. Because now your killing someone else’s loved one...who didn’t know them as a murder they know them as a brother, as a son, etc.

This is just my opinion. Nothing more. I do not agree a life for a life.

I think there is a word missing from this thread in a huge way.
Perspective. If you know someone who has been murdered or raped, then it obviously will hit you harder and you will want more severe justice than if it were a total stranger a thousand miles away. I know a lot of people will try to argue that point but it’s fact. I’m not saying it’s wrong to feel that way either. We are all human and thusly flawed. Our friends and family’s have a special place in our hearts and the thought of that happening to a loved one is devistating. Murders and violent criminals deserve to be punished. But to kill them makes us no better than they are.

Jedi are not now, nor will they ever be, judge jury and executioners. We are better than that! Self defense is exactly that. Protecting ourselves and others from iminant threat or harm. After the fact, after the trial, it is our judicial systems job to determine punishment. We as Jedi, see the value in ALL life. Not all life that we personally dream morally worthy....but ALL life. To encourage another person to take a life is beyond wrong. It’s very easy to scream I’m pro death penalty when ur not the one doing the executing. Your letting your moral outrage make another person take a life. Two wrongs don’t make a right. No amount of justice will ever undo what’s already been done. No amount of revenge will ever make you or the victim feel better.

So where does that leave us? Back at our personal morals. Do you believe it’s ok to take another’s life? Plain and simple. What said person has done is irrelevant.... is it ok to kill another human being? If your awnser is yes, the my question is what makes you any different than the person your talking about killing. If your response to that is “I’m not the one that’s gonna kill him”, then I suggest you take a long look at your ego and figure out why you think it’s ok to have others kill for you just to ease your personal heartache, because it won’t change what’s happened.

We’re Jedi and we ARE better than this. It’s our job to be the example of what is right, and just. If we can stop the crime then will should by any means possible to protect ourselves and those that can’t protect themselves. But after the fact....to end a life when it can be prevented is wrong. Let them spend there lives in jail, which is a worse punishment in my eyes anyways.

We’re Jedi and we ARE better than this. It’s our job to be the example of what is right, and just.

Eh....

#2 The fact that most rape victims don’t get justice doesn’t bother you?

Rape, (and I suppose a bunch of other crimes) are really hard to prove, one way or another.
And, in the absence of damn near absolute confidence (I think the popular phrase is "beyond reasonable doubt") the courts of many states are more or less required to come to "not guilty" (which is slightly different from "innocent")

I guess that's why we call it a Legal System not a Justice system. (Countries that think their courts deal Justice probably also have public stonings....)

What's the other phrase? Better a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent man be imprisoned?

So, you believe justice and “your moral outrage are not the same thing”? You know nothing about that person. What if s/she was raped? Or a loved one was murdered? Do you get to decide what justice is for a rapist or murderer? What if a sexual assault ruined the life of the victim? Would a slap on the wrist and a “poor you” to the victim be justice because ‘you’ happen think it’s just “moral outrage”?

And you know nothing about me? I live in the same shitheel world as the rest of everyone else - and I'm not above it's problems. I try to have ethics that reduce my tendency to add to it's problems though.

(As far as it goes, in a number of limited circumstances, I do get to decide what justice is, so I am not *completely* unfamiliar with the burden of deciding someone's fate after the fact and beyond the point where the original transgression can be undone. As you might expect, I am only given these opportunities in situations that do not involve me personally, or people close to me - I guess because there is a feeling that that would make my decision less impartial, and possibly not just?) - YMMV by I actually find it quite hard to punish someone for a crime that didn't affect me, that I don't care about, and I that I can't change now - to then decide, coldly, impartially, that further suffering must occur? It's not as easy as it sounds.

Getting into a tangent here - but that means I suffer. Is it justice that I, in the act of meting out justice for someone else, then suffer?

I had an attempted sexually assault when I was 18 by a person who was my best friend for years. He wanted to get me pregnant to “lock me in” before I went to college. This happened over 20 years ago and my feelings about it have not changed. I would rather die than be forced to have a kid. Luckily I had a broken plastic fork that I was prepared to defend myself with lethal force. Luckily, he broke off the attempted assault when I fought. So don’t you dare tell me that what I see as justice is just “moral outrage”. Abusers would love to live in a world where the damage of victims is belittled and they get a slap on the wrist no matter the hell the victims endure. This attitude of protecting rapists and murders is a deliberate slap in the face to victims.

I mean, that sucks and all, but your outrage being super personal doesn't actually make me wrong about what justice is....

and, I'm not inclined to share my stories to win an argument, but see above - I live in the same shitty world as everyone else, and have encountered, and likely will encounter in the future, a variety of shitty people - There are certainly people that I would consider taking incredible, painful, agonising, vengeance on - but I would not make the mistake of imagining what I would like to do is any parallel to "justice"


I guess that's the thing about philosophy, or ethics, or codes - it's very easy to say "love everyone" when you live in a world of love.

If you can't hold onto that belief after someone punches you in the face - then did you ever believe it in the first place?

It still amazes me how so many “Jedi” are more concerned with protecting violent offenders than victims.

I don't know that it is a creed of "protecting violent offenders" so much as a policy of not forming lynch mobs.