I want to know, what is The Force?

So I gave given my idea of what the force is to me and I have been told I'm stupid and a troll and that my ideas are just dumb. But no one offered anything to make it better, or another idea of what the force should be. So I want to know... what is the force? And how do the Jedi (I mean the temple enforcement part) define the force? I think if people cant come to this basic conclusion together then this place and as a group, the jedi are really meaningless. I wonder what others think?

Fyxe wrote: So I gave given my idea of what the force is to me and I have been told I'm stupid and a troll and that my ideas are just dumb. But no one offered anything to make it better, or another idea of what the force should be. So I want to know... what is the force? And how do the Jedi (I mean the temple enforcement part) define the force? I think if people cant come to this basic conclusion together then this place and as a group, the jedi are really meaningless. I wonder what others think?

"a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe."

That's good enough for me (straight from the doctrine page of this temple, btw, accessible to all)

"a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe."

That's good enough for me (straight from the doctrine page of this temple, btw, accessible to all)[/quote]

Personally I believe this as well .

There is a freedom in the Force as much as there is a freedom with free choice. Jedi ism exist on what exist already. If we believe in the inherit worth of all then to display it would mean that we can apply it the way we choose. We have the right as humans to choose our own faith. We come to this place already full. Not every one comes to the Temple for the same reasons. We have the right to name what we call the Force. What it is to me is what I have chosen. Where I look for it and identify is to me and the Force alone. You can have that as well. What and where we put our “ Force “ can be up to us if we choose.
We can give definitions all day and still have no Force present.
There’s a old saying - “high wind - big thunder , no rain.”
There is a lot that is Modern day Jediism. Most is what we create or choose.
The Force is what you choose it to be. Where ... you lay your heart ... Where you find tour self and faitj... its up to you. Where you find those connections can be your choice. What’s the Force for real? What’s it to you ? I’ll gladly share my choices with any one listening. Have you made yours? My hope is mine and others who have made those choices help others looking for them.

Are you going to keep asking this question until someone agrees with you that it's exactly the same thing shown in star wars?

Fyxe wrote: So I gave given my idea of what the force is to me...

No, you have not. You just pasted the line straight from the front page and once several responders pointed out how open to interpretation it was you got frustrated with them.

... and I have been told I'm stupid and a troll and that my ideas are just dumb.

No, the worst thing you were called is a liar, by yours truly. And I don't feel like apologizing for it precisely because of things like this. Not one user called you stupid or a troll. Meanwhile, you yourself actually did literally say you think we are trolls, but I guess it's okay when you do it, so what do I know. And no, nobody called your ideas dumb either. But do bear with us if we get mildly annoyed at your unceasing whining and lying, patiently though we engage with both nevertheless.

So I want to know... what is the force? And how do the Jedi (I mean the temple enforcement part) define the force? I think if people cant come to this basic conclusion together then this place and as a group, the jedi are really meaningless. I wonder what others think?

You really don't wonder what anyone thinks, you just wonder how many you can find to agree with yourself. Else you'd have noticed what they did respond to you the last two times you asked it and wouldn't now lie saying nobody had. However, luckily, you are not the only user here, so I shall take the opportunity to say what I think for perhaps those who are interested.

I think you are incorrect, Fyxe. I think meaning, both in the sense of importance and in the sense of a semantical relation, though particularly in the former, is personal - or at most interpersonal - rather than universal. If uniformity of perspective is what it takes for a community to stand by some meaning or to be meaningful to you, that's regrettable, but that is for you to sort out with yourself, not for us to bend under.

And as to what the Force is... I like Proteus' late August response to a recent threads by the same title. Incidentally, there is a third one from earlier this year, but I guess you are too busy "wondering" what others thing to actually read up on what they said. I can somewhat understand it. We're looking at one ten page thread, and another 24 page thread, so it's a lot of patience to muster for a question one alleges to have such a deep interest in. Anyway, the delightful way Proteus put it was "What is the Force not?" (emphasis added).

One way or another, those that pose any sort of real magical powers or parallel realms, or divine influences without exception are stuck doing so on at best profoundly spurious evidence, if any, and many are happy to say in more innocent sounding words that they essentially believe it for no reason whatsoever, let alone a good one. While I can personally respect them as individuals, I have genuinely no frame of reference by which to understand and appreciate such uncritical thinking. To me the idea that any one of us, much less one personally, is fit not only to identify a common context for all life is ludicrous, and the claim to having found the capital-T Truth^TM like that the height of arrogance. Even the weaker claim of "but it's true for me, why can't you leave it be" reeks to me of this spirit of self-indulgence, this attitude of thinking oneself alone and being perfectly satisfied with poorly justified answers just so long as they are private and personal.
At any rate, in light of this lack of identifiable real world phenomenon that needs a new name like "the Force", and one at that, that also carries as much baggage as this name in particular does through it's introduction by means of the fiction, if there must be anything for us to call the Force at all, it has to be something inconcrete, abstract. The Force to me can be, say, a motivator. The recognition of the interwovenness of nature not in some mystical sense, but in a literal one, and with possibly ethical implications at that. I think of it as an encouragement to cherish life and to appreciate it in its brevity and beauty, and to recognize the limits it puts upon us, not as chains to be broken, but as river beds to guide us. I believe that such an interpretation is sufficiently vague and weak as to not collide with what we know about how stuff works, yet not so weak as to be without meaning or impact with respect to the attitudes we approach life with in a broader, more general sense, and the choices that eventually results in.

Fyxe wrote: So I gave given my idea of what the force is to me and I have been told I'm stupid and a troll and that my ideas are just dumb. But no one offered anything to make it better, or another idea of what the force should be. So I want to know... what is the force? And how do the Jedi (I mean the temple enforcement part) define the force? I think if people cant come to this basic conclusion together then this place and as a group, the jedi are really meaningless. I wonder what others think?

You seem to be asking the same question in different ways in an attempt to pin down a specific meaning that you already hold in your mind.
Although your temple enforcement part made me smile.
Now I don't think your stupid or a troll, but I do think you are asking not to hear but rather to see an echo of your thoughts and you may not find that.
I believe the force is everything, you are the force in motion right now. But I won't necessarily agree with everyone elses idea of what the force is, and that really doesn't matter. We are all unique and while there may be basic things we agree as a whole on, our interpretation of the force could be vastly different.
In a way everything is meaningless, so we bring meaning to what we believe in by our actions, using what we learn, which changes all the time as new information or different perspectives are added, the force is just a word, brought about by an unique space opera that took its meaning from many different sources including vastly different religions, cultures, influences (past, people, perspectives)
We put our own meaning into the force by what we choose to do with our understanding. Every act creates a ripple in life because we are connected togeather even if you don't see those connections. Our intentions, our thoughts even our energy (emotions and stance, body language) create ripples..
You walk in a room angry and observe the ongoing reaction throughout that room
Walk in happy, see a different reaction
Those are ripples and those to me, everything happening is happening in the force..
The force just is.. and we are within it.
Just my opinion I could keep rambling but I dont think you need to hear my thoughts as much as maybe you need to work on your own, write an essay on what you think, research different ideas, even those that you feel are opposite to yours, you may find it really interesting.

Here's another (longer) answer, that might clarify some things. It comes from the Jedi Compass.

"The Force- “The Force” is a loosely adapted term to explain a something which all cultures agree exist, but disagree on exactly what it is. As such, a Jedi dedicates themselves to understanding of all things within and through “the Force”. As a rule, no Jedi can set down in law a concrete definition of “the Force” for all to follow, only for themselves."

To give further explanation- if we all agree that it has certain parameters, we'll never truly try to explore it for ourselves. And as captured by the last line in the Heartland Jedi Creed: "It is through understanding of the Force I am transformed."

The Force is everything that is.

forestjedi wrote: The Force is everything that is.

If I may ask, for whom?
I find alot of times what I think is one thing or when I find things in general I tend to think every one should know this or even every one should feel the same way, it may not always be for any one else but me. In modern day Jeddism its very easy to pass off our own definitions that we have taken time and effort to find and "assume" others "should" know what we are talking about. Same with answers in modern day Jediism. They can only apply to the individual most times. So, I ask honestly not for drama and for edification more, who is the Force everything that is everything for? Generalization? ? Specific?

Is the taste of strawberry tea in the morning the Force? It is to some? Is the Force a taste? Is the Force a smell? It is for some. Is it a feeling? it is to some. What is the Force? Where ever your heart is, where ever your ideas lay, where ever YOUR attention is, thats where YOU are going to find the Force. Can it be different from every one else's definition, it has to be, we are NOT the same. We aint looking at the same thing. Thats one of the hardest things in modern day Jediism I find... how to be you with YOUR OWN definitions while other be THEM -WITH THEIR OWN definitions. Kinna like life but thats a sermon for another day.

A lot of people have said that The Force is just everything. But I dont see how that can be? If it is everything why pull it out as something that can be put a name on it? like The Force, understand? we already have a name for everything, its called the universe, right? so why is there two names for the same thing? I just dont think the force is everything.

Lesson 8, Essay 5, of the IP asks us to answer this very question.

It may be interesting to see what people wrote (for those of us who have completed the IP), and perhaps also to see if our opinions are still the same?

Below is what I wrote at the time. My opinion of the Force is still more or less the same.

Brick, in his IP, wrote:

Lesson 8: Jediism Essays (Continued)

Essay 5: The Force

There are many different, and personal, views of The Force.

What is The Force to you?

What connection, if any, do you feel you have to It?

....................................................................................................................................................................................................


I had a right old chew on with this task.

Initially I thought it close to impossible to accurately describe my thoughts on The Force. To attempt any kind of real description would, IMO, mislead. Whatever answer I give, it is likely to be wrong. I am bad enough at finding words to explain what I mean, but to use a finite number of words to describe something which is infinitely indescribable? Buggeration :laugh:

Its also very difficult to explain things that really have to be observed/experienced purely in words. For example, WW2 children in the UK were evacuated from the cities to live in the country, many of these children had never seen farm animals before and so wrote letters home describing them. One boy famously described a cow as looking like a

milk-carton on its side with four legs and a brush for a tail.

Now I personally don’t think that’s a very good description of a cow. I would said it looks like a fat black and white horse. Then again, if these people hadn’t seen cows before, maybe they hadn’t seen horses either. So, a really big, less hairy, black and white dog? That doesn’t really sum up what a cow is, does it? :laugh:

Though perhaps I’m being a tad unfair, I did actually find what I think is quite a good description by another child evacuee:

The cow is a mammal. It has six sides, right, left upper and below. At the back it has a tail on which hangs a brush. With this it sends flies away so they do not fall into the milk. The head is for the purpose of growing horns and so that the mouth can be somewhere. The horns are to butt with and the mouth is to moo with. Under the cow hangs the milk. It is arranged for milking. When people milk the milk comes and there is never an end to the supply. How the cow does it I have not realised but it makes more and more. The cow has a fine sense of smell; one can smell it far away. This is the reason for fresh air in the country. The man cow is called an ox. It is not a mammal. The cow does not eat much, but what it eats, it eats twice so that it gets enough. When it is hungry it moos and when it says nothing it is because it is all full up with grass.

My point is that these descriptions, no matter how good, conjure up very different images of what a cow looks like, but they’re all describing the same thing. And this is what happens when someone tries to describe what The Force is. You’ll get an infinite number of answers that conjure up totally different images in one’s mind, even though these descriptions are all talking about the same thing. They’re attempting to describe something that is indescribable, and they’ll all be warped in some way by our thoughts and pre-conceptions. It doesn’t matter how accurate a description one may be able to provide, it’ll never be quite there.

It’s the same with the name. I look at it’s name as any other word, just in different languages. For example a dog in English is ‘dog’, in German it is ‘Hund’ and in French ‘chien’. It doesn’t matter what we call it, it’s still the same thing. That too applies to The Force. We can call it ‘The Force’, ‘God’, ‘The Tao’ etc. It’s still all the same thing (though perhaps interpreted slightly differently). But ultimately its just a name for something that does not have a name.

The Force transcends words and thought.

Perhaps the best way to explain my understanding is to pinch Sonya’s from the ‘Mindwalk’ Lesson earlier on in the IP. Now, I am no physicist, but the descriptions of how one part of a system depends on that of another, how these things around us seamlessly blend and connect and change slowly together over time, all depending on one thing, which depends on something else, and on and on. That just makes sense to me. I can see it in patterns all around and within me.

I have never really considered the idea of the earth as a giant organism until watching Mindwalk. For me, to talk about The Force is to talk about that ‘connection’ to that giant living, breathing THING that we all are together. Like Watts’s ‘cat through the fence’ example, event ‘head’ does not lead to event ‘tail’. Its all ‘Cat’, just as I/you/cat/dog/earth are all ‘One’ or ‘All’. I don't feel that ‘All’ forms a sentient or has a secret plan for our lives or some meaningful destiny that it's taking us towards. I don't believe you can pray to it, it can’t hear you (and even if it could, it couldn’t do anything). I don't believe that it is guiding us in any particular way. But I have no choice but to be connected to it through The Force because it's part of what we all are. To suggest otherwise would be like a limb claiming to be a separate entity to the body. I can however become ‘in tune’ (for want of a better phrase) with ‘All’. Be as one with my surroundings. I’m not entirely sure how yet, but I think that over time I will come to know this.

Or perhaps its all just Dark Matter

:laugh:

We shall see

End of Lesson 8: Essay 5

Fyxe wrote: A lot of people have said that The Force is just everything. But I dont see how that can be? If it is everything why pull it out as something that can be put a name on it? like The Force, understand? we already have a name for everything, its called the universe, right? so why is there two names for the same thing? I just dont think the force is everything.

I agree with this Fyxe. The Universe is just a bunch of 'stuff' stuck together, in the same way that the human body is just a bunch of organs stuck together.

For me, the Force is to the Unvierse what the spirit/soul is to the human body. If that makes sense? Its the 'life' bit.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

forestjedi wrote: The Force is everything that is.

If I may ask, for whom?

For the Force, because the Force is all that is. It's you. It's me. It's your mailman. It's the dog barking down the street. That's the point.

All the things you spoke about there, all the complexity, variety and "subjectivity"... all of those are aspects, facets we project upon the larger whole.

The universe? No, that's not everything that "is".

Thats one of the hardest things in modern day Jediism I find... how to be you with YOUR OWN definitions while other be THEM -WITH THEIR OWN definitions. Kinna like life but thats a sermon for another day.

The implication here seems to be, if you believe your thing and I believe my thing, how can we both be right? The answer is usually, we can't. "When a man falls in a puddle, he gets wet - whether he believes in water or not". I don't believe any opinion other than mine is correct, but that doesn't mean I don't believe any opinion other than mine is valid. I think I'm right (thus, this is my belief), and I recognise and accept that I might be wrong, and that others are entitled to their own opinions. That said, the more inclusive your view, the wider you cast it, the less likely you are to be wrong. When I say the Force, I mean all that is. No-one can turn around and say "wrong! When you say the Force you don't mean that!" - I do. When someone else says "the Force", they might mean anything, and that's fine.

Why two names for the same thing? Because we often have two names for the same things, or for things which appear identical until we approach them with a different perspective. It's a ball. It's a tomato. A tomato is kind of a ball, no? But when we understand that it's a tomato, we engage with it in a different way.

The difference between "everything" and "the Force", from which all things spring, is like that. You are dead to "everything", it's too much, too unknowable. "Everything" doesn't matter to you because you've lived your whole life with it. But taking a different perspective on it, changing the way you view it, learning to see it with fresh eyes, ideas, purpose... that matters.

You want to be pure to the fiction, Fyxe? "It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." Sounds pretty damn ubiquitous, no?

Agree, don't agree, not my circus nor my monkeys. But there are many here who talk of the Force as the fundamental substance of "being", and I am one of them. For me, pretty much every other analogy or explanation of it quickly descends into pure unadulterated woo.

Brick wrote: The Universe is just a bunch of 'stuff' stuck together, in the same way that the human body is just a bunch of organs stuck together.

I don't disagree with this. But when I ask you to imagine a big heap of meat, bones, skin, hair... then ask you to imagine a person. Same thing. Different.

I think you are good in your idea brick. more on that in a bit.

A ball and a tomato are not the same thing. a tomato is not a ball, a tomato and a ball are similar only because both are round. but one is not the other. and surrounding us, penetrating us and binding us sounds like something pretty different to us, right? I mean what we are and what binds us together has to be two different things.

Sort of what brick was saying, an arm cant claim its seperate from the body when it is attached to the body but if you cut that limb off it does not stop being a limb and then it can claim it is seperate from the body. now there is a body and a limb, two seperate things where before there was just a body!

So if the force took a life energy and shattered it into a million pieces they are all sperate things but still part of what used to be one thing. does that one thing exist anymore? well no, its not one thing anymore. now it a million things that used to be one thing. and if the thing that shattered that one thing took a string and hooked them all together then all those things would be connected but still seperate things. the breaker is the force and the hooker of the string is the force. but the parts are us! our job is to use the string to put ourselves back together, make sense?

If the Force is everything
There must be a Nothing aswell
because if there is an everything there must be a nothing to compare it with right?

How would we call that nothing?

Any definition of "everything" which doesn't include "nothing" (whatever we mean by that) isn't really a definition of "everything".

I believe that the Force includes whatever "nothing" means, yes - because I don't believe there is existence outside of the Force, because if it exists, my definition of the Force includes it.

What is this "everything" thing you are referring to, anyway?

For me, the Force is the web of cause and effect by which the universe moves. Is it mystical or metaphysical? Magical, even? Well, maybe. Certainly to the degree that these words mean something which exists in reality then they are an aspect of the Force. I perceive and interact with my immediate environment. Lets say, all the sounds that i can hear and everything i can see within my field of vision; this is the piece of the universe that I have some degree of access to. Potentially, I can affect and be affected by anyone and most anything in my immediate environment. But Im also immersed in a web of circumstances which are the result of my personal experiences and choices. I chose to be a Jedi, I chose to do the job that I do and to pursue the degree that I am pursuing and the hobbies and interests that I explore in my free time. All these choice immerse me in processes and relationships which shape my personality and offer me new opportunities. I also have effects on the people and events that I interact with and while my impact on the Fore may be minimal, it is real.

Every single thing about me (and all of us) from my height and weight to my belief structure to the circumstances that have me at this computer in this place right now as i type this, can all be traced back to a cause or a set of causes. Following this process of tracing back to find the cause/s will take us, eventually, all the way back to the very birth of the universe (we are made of molecules that made stars). All of this is what the Force is, to me. Some of the causes and effects going on in the universe may be magical, definitely many are purely physical but whatever they are, they constitute a web of causality of which i and everything else in existence is a part. This web of cause and effect is large and complicated beyond my comprehension and the vast majority of it is completely out of my reach, but some small piece of it responds directly to me and my behavior and influences me and my behavior. I am in a relationship with Reality. This is what the Force is, to me.

Fyxe wrote: A ball and a tomato are not the same thing. a tomato is not a ball, a tomato and a ball are similar only because both are round. but one is not the other. and surrounding us, penetrating us and binding us sounds like something pretty different to us, right? I mean what we are and what binds us together has to be two different things.

Sort of what brick was saying, an arm cant claim its seperate from the body when it is attached to the body but if you cut that limb off it does not stop being a limb and then it can claim it is seperate from the body. now there is a body and a limb, two seperate things where before there was just a body!

So if the force took a life energy and shattered it into a million pieces they are all sperate things but still part of what used to be one thing. does that one thing exist anymore? well no, its not one thing anymore. now it a million things that used to be one thing. and if the thing that shattered that one thing took a string and hooked them all together then all those things would be connected but still seperate things. the breaker is the force and the hooker of the string is the force. but the parts are us! our job is to use the string to put ourselves back together, make sense?

It looks to me like you have your own idea of what The Force is. If you expect anyone else to give up their own idea of what the Force means and accept yours, instead, im afraid youre going to be disappointed. If you are settled on your interpretation then I would say your question is already answered and theres no need for you to ask anything of anyone else. However, if you are open minded and curious enough to learn something new and/or to see things in a new way, then you may benefit by asking us what we think.

No ob1, I asked the question what is the force? because I want to know what people think it is so we can discuss it and see what we can decide it is. I have an idea and you have an idea but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?