How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

I ask you this? How is rank actually about academics in the courses of study here instead of simply a popularity contest? If you achieve the academics are you guaranteed the rank as in a traditional university? Or are you still subject to the scrutiny of a specific clique of individuals that were not elected, but appointed, to decide your value in a rank?

I have recently come to some epiphanies in this ranking structure. I have seen knight after knight melt down and either be excommunicated, rage quit or outright banned while the "quieter" jedi, with no rank, continue on over time, being a voice of reason and wisdom time and time again. These people I refer to have been my greatest sources of inspiration, steadfast perseverance and wisdom, while these so called knights have faltered and destroyed themselves over and over. Power corrupts... So I want to ask, who are the true Jedi here?

You need to get out more and forget your silly nilly problems. I was feeling a little sad last night but I went out and got a great big one. Then I had a drink and I felt better.

In my profession nobody asks about a degree and they don't care where or if I went to school. But many of my customers have degrees. Many have advanced degrees. Completing the academics gets you a degree but it does not necessarily get you a job or a position (rank) at the place you got the degree from.

I don't know if you were looking for any specific kind of person--or someone with more authority--to answer these questions, but since we're in Open Discussion, I'll submit my thoughts on the topic, as well as try and provide some assemblage of answers.

... are you still subject to the scrutiny of a specific clique of individuals that were not elected, but appointed, to decide your value in a rank?

I don't think TotJO is similar to a university. My college experience was focused a lot more on checking boxes than on genuinely learning the material and developing earnest study. One has to reach a specific minimum of hours and chooses from a small selection of classes. You're often graded according to generic benchmarks and you've got to have paid a specific amount to be considered for graduation.

At TotJO, there are a few minimum timetables to be met--like the minimum 60 days a novice must study--but they are few and far between. There is a lesson plan to follow, but each Jedi is encouraged to study secondary materials and embark on their own extra-education. There also isn't a strict, technical grading system here, it seems to be based on judging whether or not you were able to grasp the materials and whether or not you have truly connected with what it means to be a Jedi. I know that is extremely subjective--you can't avoid that--so, yes, there seems to be a certain amount of human-council-scrutiny when it comes to assigning value to your study efforts. I know that can be annoying, but if you ask me, its better than establishing a strict criteria.

From time to time we may have to deal with faulty leadership, but there are a few aspects of this system which provide hope for me, as they may for you. Firstly, the council can only deny a reasonable person who has met the basic requirements for promotion for so long before either that person realizes there is no true value in seeking the rank and approval of this group of fallible people, or the rest of the people of the temple notice cliquish behavior and speak out. Second, in the end, you will become a Jedi, or you will not. You do not need the TotJO to do that. I advise that you view TotJO simply as a community which establishes a base for you to work from and through which you can share your views and occasionally encounter support and encouragement for your study. That is how I view it, and it keeps me from worrying or thinking too much about the rank, social and political structure within the temple.

Power corrupts... So I want to ask, who are the true Jedi here?

Every answer you'll get to this question is filtered through a self (including mine, duh), so keep that in mind. I think the "true" Jedi here are the ones who do their best to adhere to the following...


Only you can decide for yourself what each of those things mean.

I hope this answer has been helpful.

Jabba The Slut wrote: You need to get out more and forget your silly nilly problems. I was feeling a little sad last night but I went out and got a great big one. Then I had a drink and I felt better.

In my profession nobody asks about a degree and they don't care where or if I went to school. But many of my customers have degrees. Many have advanced degrees. Completing the academics gets you a degree but it does not necessarily get you a job or a position (rank) at the place you got the degree from.

Your such a slut.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Jabba The Slut wrote: You need to get out more and forget your silly nilly problems. I was feeling a little sad last night but I went out and got a great big one. Then I had a drink and I felt better.

In my profession nobody asks about a degree and they don't care where or if I went to school. But many of my customers have degrees. Many have advanced degrees. Completing the academics gets you a degree but it does not necessarily get you a job or a position (rank) at the place you got the degree from.

Your such a slut.

True. Not for less than $500 (plus sales and use tax) though. Stay moist dear.

TotJO is a place for spiritual enlightenment, self discovery and discussion of many varied and wide ranging topics.
Post what you think is acceptable for an 8 year old to read (be it your own child or another) as this is in fact a family, and public, forum after all. If in doubt, leave it out.

Please note also that swearing is not the only way to offend. One can be just as demeaning and derogatory without resorting to swear words. These cases are as equally inappropriate and are covered under the same regulation on the forum.
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Jabba The Slut wrote:
True. Not for less than $500 (plus sales and use tax) though. Stay moist dear.

Indecent proposal. I mean use tax? Is that not implied in the contract? And for sales tax, well good luck actually collecting that for an illegitimate business venture. Not to say your efforts are not worthy but tax collectable?? Well I hardly think so! Lmao

Yeah its my first day here , is this representative of the level of discussion here ?

Lumella wrote: Yeah its my first day here , is this representative of the level of discussion here ?

Short Answer: No, not really, but that can depend entirely on the people you tend to engage.

Longer Answer: Sometimes people come into a discussion, like any discussion, and decide to bring some levity, or just plain don't take it seriously and want to show that. In turn, some people respond in kind, and so on. There's not much in the way of realistic or ethical means to control how others interact, at the end of the day, and sometimes we just have to look at the larger group to see what the larger trends are. Failing that, you can always just approach a "Do Not Like" situation with the question: "Who does it hurt?" If you don't approve a given individuals' behavior, here, you can always report it if they're actually breaking rules, or, if you simply find them obnoxious, well, than just don't engage.

It's also important to keep in mind that we not only have rules, here, but people that work towards enforcing them or otherwise seeing that they are followed.

Definitely have a browse around the forums, I think you'll see the conversations outside of decidely silly ones are more numerous, as well as more serious.

Sure , i can always ignore stupid convo , good advice

Ideally, from my understanding, Rank is handled more as a combination of the two. Obviously, if the people in the positions to promote others find those people more favorable, it makes it easier to just do that, but that's more or less a part of why we have the "academics" in place, as a sort of check on that power. On the flip side, it's not enough to simply go through the academics, but to show that you have done so, AND displayed a genuine understanding of the material.

Growth is also a factor; this is not a conventional academic setting, but a place that promotes spiritual/philosophical development. If, when one is up for Knighthood, they are the same person as when they first came here, I would certainly hesitate to vote in favor, as such a person has somehow breezed through the process, falling into the same traps as conventional academia- rote memorization, learning what to say, and when, whether you believe it or not, whether you UNDERSTAND it or not. On the flip side, it also possible to change in a negative way, or even fail to truly address one's tendencies or behaviors honestly, even if at face value they are unbecoming of a Jedi Knight, or similarly considered positions. If it were purely based on how well the judging body viewed you, they wouldn't bother with the process in the first place, and there would be no academic process, for that matter.

Being Likable/liked helps, sure, but that's technically true of ANY process where a group attempts to reach a consensus- In this place, at least, an assessment of growth and genuine merit is the balancing act between the academic and the "popularity contest"/democratic process. It's also pretty easy to view a system as negative, if you already view it's representatives in a negative light; a state of mind that leaves one vulnerable to manipulation, but more importantly, shapes the light in which you view their actions and activities, whether it's true or not, or even if it's actually different than what's done by others who simply pass, ironically, for having your good opinion of them.

It's certainly not a perfect system, but, what system is? The potential flaws and failings in this system are no different than any alternative, and for the same reasons.

I AM curious, though, what some of your ideas are, in pursuing something akin to a "more perfect union"? You've stated what you don't like about it, but what would you do differently, how, and how/why would that actually be better?

Lumella wrote: Yeah its my first day here , is this representative of the level of discussion here ?

The thread was started by kyrin so someone was bound to troll...

Any way to get back to the topic?

To answer the original question, yes, rank IS a popularity contest. Worded like that it sounds like a bad thing, so the way I would rephrase it is:

Rank is a matter of TRUST. When you have gained the trust of leadership through consistent display of the qualities they deem as appropriate and representative of a Jedi Knight, THEN you are awarded the rank of Jedi Knight. The academics are a prerequisite, but rank is NOT about academic fulfillment, nor is it about a badge of being “more advanced” on the path.

Rank, as in most institutions (military or civilian) are awarded based on how a person displays both proficiency in execution of tasks and alignment to the values of an organization.

TL;DR: rank is awarded as a responsibility, and thus awarded not based on academic proficiency, but on alignment to institutional values.

Rank CAN be many things- including but never limited to - a popularity contest. Reminds me of the old saying - to a person with a hammer - everything looks like the head of a nail.
Flowers remind us often of our own hearts condition as do colors and songs and story’s and so on and so forth. Some would say like tea - it’s just a reflection of what we see and know.

When you have gained the trust of leadership through consistent display of the qualities they deem as appropriate and representative of a Jedi Knight, THEN you are awarded the rank of Jedi Knight.

Ideally, yes.

rank is NOT about academic fulfillment, nor is it about a badge of being “more advanced” on the path

However in reality things are preceived differently. A few senior members have now suggested we do away with rank is it appears to have a negative impact on the members. Years back i streamlined the rank progression system for lower ranks and it proved immensely popular... But it looks like it was for the wrong reasons. Shiny golden carrots, whether hanging off a stick or not, as it turns out, have zero nutritional value.

It took me a while to cycle through my thoughts on this matter. Rank does not necessarily indicate wisdom or indeed an understanding of Jediism
Fight me if you like, but from experience, this truth cannot be denied. As it were, people's expectation of Knight is what trips people up. I expect Knights to behave this way, or to understand this thing and when they don't, but the rank indicates they should, then I get mad and I quit because these people are not Jedi or Knights as I understand them. I work with my understanding of Jedi and Knight underpinning all my lessons, and if my teacher does not catch this, I can let this spill over into how I interact as a Knight. If I take on students, that tendency will be passed to them and so on and so forth.

Now, here is the thing. There are more than one way to be a Jedi and to be a Knight. The key to understanding that is putting your own view on the backburner and really trying to understand what the other view(s) are.

I'm reading a small book called The Apology by Plato which I think might be helpful here: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: Yeah its my first day here , is this representative of the level of discussion here ?

The thread was started by kyrin so someone was bound to troll...

Could you eleborate on that?Iis she being trolled because she is "just" a guest or because she is Kyrin or both , and therefore making this discussion more than fitting? Meaning that this is the problem she is talking about?

Maybe it is. Kyrin is known for her abrasive/argumentative style. We have been discussing the nature and purpose of the "open discussions" section of totjo, whether an OP 'owns' a thread and can dictate what can or cannot be discussed. Maybe it's all just an ellaborate exercise whose purpose is to see how people react? Will people come to Kyrin's defense against the evil Jabba in a perfect display of wise and fair Jedi Justice? Stay tuned.

ren wrote: Maybe it is. Kyrin is known for her abrasive/argumentative style. We have been discussing the nature and purpose of the "open discussions" section of totjo, whether an OP 'owns' a thread and can dictate what can or cannot be discussed. Maybe it's all just an ellaborate exercise whose purpose is to see how people react? Will people come to Kyrin's defense against the evil Jabba in a perfect display of wise and fair Jedi Justice? Stay tuned.

Hmmm so its more of what an OP poster should expect when he posts something? The only thing that comes to mind quickly with me is this .. When i kick a football into the football field , i know that i no longer control the ball , if then someone picks it up with his hands and starts studying the colour and roundness or lack thereoff and my intention was to discuss the game ...that is annoying , but then again , why did i just kick the ball into the game , and should you explain all the rules etc ...? Intriguing indeed !