Manners

So, a somewhat simple question that will require a complex answer I am sure, one which I can not decypher.

When do manners and "societal norms" become enforced silence?

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Manners, ahhhhh I love manners and in this world of craziness I don't say most humans don't have em, but what ive noticed is how easily some are often reminded of how useful they are and how easily they can be given and received. In public I harp on manners to my family and children and for the most part that's what sets us all apart. There is a saying ive heard Watts say and the gist is this - there can come a time when you can out manner every one - what then? Is that the purpose of having them? What happens when you out manner every one? I keep that in my mind often and in my heart. Balance is always key in things in life and to me, this is no exception. I teach my boy and family manners along with this lesson- manners matter but not at the expense of others, for it is manners that can create quality. If manners undo then what's the purpose? Use manners to create a better connection for you and a better environment for yourself rather than dismantle and unraveling. I don't say that to the 6 year old but that's the idea in the Martinez house hold any how. I look forward to the other ways of thought on this as well. Thanks Kobos! May the Force continue to be with you ….

To protect suffering perhaps. I was reading on twitter how a few ladies were expressing techniques for blokes to for avoiding freaking out single women in elevators.... to press their button before her so it didn't look like he was stalking her floor.... and leaving the elevator first and walking ahead of her so it didn't look like he was positioning himself into a snatching pursuit position from behind. A bit bizarre to read TBH, as I never think like that beyond keeping distances and assessing characters.... and some of the suggestions are rather piecemeal TBH, yet.... in normal conduct might help to reduce the anxiety felt by victims of assault, and if its no skin off my nose to do simple things like that, why not (if I ever remember them!). So in the same way, being mindful of suffering or potential suffering can change how and what we might say, if it can be said in a equally effective manner without causing anxiety.

Maybe also to ensure some equanimity in affording access or participation across difference. Again, in an aviation context, radio communications have to be succinct ie; brief, concise and clear. The brevity is because there is often many users wanting to communicate at the same time, so in an effort to enable sharing of the platform they are generally both procedurally formatted but also said as fast as possible without loosing clarity. Being concise plays to the brevity but while also enabling the required information in a least ambiguous manner. And the clarity is obviously just so it can be heard... as having to repeat something really wastes time. There is also a rough order of things, a priority, and so an order of sorts where different things are said by different people who are tracking what is being said be who so to avoid people talking at the same time and creating a garbled mess of many voices.

If I have understood your question. I guess its about putting something above oneself, and participating in something rather then using that something for oneself.

Manners seems to be a fading respect today. I work a part time job as a bouncer at a Nightclub in a collage town. So I have had the opportunity to observe people from different backgrounds and cultures. Males are by far the majority of our kick outs. Some have a lack of respect of boundaries with our female patrons. Some are so bold to even ask the bartenders for sexual favors. We have posted sign at our entrance with a list of unacceptable behaviors. Anything thing deemed by our staff that seems to make other patrons to feel uncomfortable will result in being asked to leave. Manners in these kinds of establishment are important to make the environment feel safe and fun, so we do enforce them. We live in a different time these days. I often wander what was the social conditioning of these individuals that I make leave that makes them believe they can act without commons manners. Is the term "Chivalry is dead" true?. Is there still a need for the archaic term. When I ponder that I remember the line Gandalf gave to Galadriel in "The Hobbit"

Galadriel: Mithrandir... Why the hafling?

Gandalf: Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? I don't know. Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage

Some have a lack of respect of boundaries with our female patrons. Some are so bold to even ask the bartenders for sexual favors.

So are you saying we should go back to the way things were and abandon this modern asking first game? :whistle:

ren wrote:

Some have a lack of respect of boundaries with our female patrons. Some are so bold to even ask the bartenders for sexual favors.

So are you saying we should go back to the way things were and abandon this modern asking first game? :whistle:

I believe the "asking first" game is already purposefully forgot.

It should have been instilled in us at a young age. Some learned these mannerism and some did not. Its not their fault though. Some people do get a different upbringing. But I do feel that "Common Manners" should be somewhat "Common Sense"

Garwa Mayharr wrote:

ren wrote:

Some have a lack of respect of boundaries with our female patrons. Some are so bold to even ask the bartenders for sexual favors.

So are you saying we should go back to the way things were and abandon this modern asking first game? :whistle:

I believe the "asking first" game is already purposefully forgot.

It should have been instilled in us at a young age. Some learned these mannerism and some did not. Its not their fault though. Some people do get a different upbringing. But I do feel that "Common Manners" should be somewhat "Common Sense"

So what is it about manners what parts of a society have we missed? I know for a fact that as we venture out in the world - a jerk will be a jerk no matter the gender or label. Manners is a strange thing - here in the USA it’s not taught or even emphasized in schools or even organizations. What and where these types of things have a greater impact in my own opinion is often home. Here where I live there are no places or even any type of classes lessons or anything like that available on said subject.

Manners were taught to me 1st at home, then reinforced in Church and School, and further honed by social interactions, some trial and error included here. I don't imagine it was different for anyone else. As Jedi we hone our Empathy so we can connect and relate to our fellow beings in a meaningful way. Paying attention to other's thoughts & feelings is required, and teaches us where & how we can be genuinely helpful to them. A lot of the previous comments fixate on Human male/female interactions relating to personal space and sexual interactions. I'm going to oversimplify it with facial expressions, and say if they smile you may be on the right track, and a frown is a warning sign, tears and screams means you've blown it big time. I don't think it hurts anything to ask for what you want, and ask what she wants from you, in respectfully and in tactful ways: "I'm feeling a connection with you, I'm interested in getting more aquainted. Is that something you want to explore further with me?" Guys, the best way is to stay calm and let her tell you where she wants things to go. The romantic idea of: "if it's Real Love you'll know what I want without my saying it" is Pure Crap! Being emotionally involved doesn't immediately give you mental telepathy with your significant other. That comes from shared experiences over time, and a lifetime of paying acutely attention to each other. It's intuition & experience, not telepathy. The beginning is awkward and needs more circumspection. A simple approach is to think of her as the daughter of your parent's best friend. Now ask for that date, lean in for that first kiss, consider more intimate interactions in that light and see how it all changes.

Tannis Yarl wrote: Manners were taught to me 1st at home, then reinforced in Church and School, and further honed by social interactions,

I think that it is assumed that manners will be taught at home, and that is a good place for it... From my background. I was taught my manners from Boy Scouts, being that I was in a traditional troop.

Let’s remember the other side of manners as well. Manners is a social and cultural aspect of society, so who gets to decide what good (or bad) manners actually is for the individual? I have been accused of bad behavior here countless times and yet in those complaints no actual rules were broken. Instead it’s an accusation of breaking the “spirit of the rule”. Well there are rules and then there’s the spirit of the rule. It is this spirit of rule that manners falls under. These get described as “just common sense” but is it really? I would say no. Is it bad manners to take a phone call in a restaurant? Breast feed in public? Play music on a bus? Is it really reasonable to expect others to conform to our ideals of what good manners are?

I’m not saying that there is no place for manners. At their most basic level manners are a set of shared rules to help us show consideration for other people instead of acting in complete self-interest. These sorts of rules help keep unhygienic practices out of society for example. In this way they are social rules that aim to make public spaces cleaner and safer for everyone. But these rules can also be used detrimentally as a means of majority rule and used to exert power over others. So while covering your mouth while coughing is a good practice because it helps prevent the spread of disease, shaming a young mother for public breast feeding or reprimanding an individual for her use of free speech should be undesirable practices because they are used as a means to control how others use public spaces.

Attempting to train others to conform to your idea of good manners is often an exercise in futility brought on by an unconscious need for control. As Jedi this is not something that should be held in high regard. Dictating to others or shaming them on how to behave often times evokes the opposite response. The problem comes about because each of us have different ideas of proper behavior in any specific situation. But instead of accepting this truth, perceived bad behavior is often met with accusations of selfishness and lack of consideration. It becomes quickly apparent that people have different expectations of an engagement. Some prefer dignified interactions, others look for more social exchanges and still others seek a more aggressive or provocative approach. Each of these is designed to accommodate the taste of the individual. The best approach is to be accepting of all these methodologies without undue judgement.

But more often than not this is not the case. This is because people tend to think their own viewpoint is the common sense one and others are wrong. All the time I will hear from others how my behavior is obviously wrong or unacceptable or ridiculous. This board in particular has rules in place that are intended to promote some preconceived idea of consideration of others, but also seems to be viewed as consistently failing to achieve that objective. Claims abound of rule skirting. But if no rule was broken what does that mean? Once again it comes down to individual interpretation and often times a lack of understanding of the often times complex language terms used in some conversations. This place has been called a temple of traditional solemnity but it is also a place of syncretic diversity. So is it right for this place to exclude people that don’t necessarily break the rules but also do not conform to its commonly accepted social norms?

Of course there is a clear need to conform to social rules, especially when they are there to protect others. But beyond that, deciding what is acceptable should mean making hard judgment calls of your specific bias and then letting that go, thus allowing individual expression that facilitates happy coexistence. If a conversation is not your style, avoid it. But don’t judge the participants harshly. They just operate under a different set of rules and in this they are not wrong just different. For most of us encountering moments of bad behavior is a fleeting problem. But instead of focusing on the issue and making it your personal mission to eradicate, the most considerate thing you could do is to try and not be so quick to judge.

Are manners in a sense - rules ?
Edit : can they be and who dictates them? Is it one of those codes that’s commonly understood ?
Can they be left to the individual themselves?

Rules and timing perhaps? As I posted somewhere else a month or so ago, I heard a fun thing being said, that 'rules dictate what we do when people (in charge) are watching, and our morals do it when they are not'. So yes a moral framework might 'mute' speech or action in some circumstances, but refining the content or timing of delivery can minimize or remove the conflict between ones moral framework and imperatives to speak or act.

As I certainly don't think its bad to be moral, or even have those morals restrict ones freedom in various ways, to an extent.... certainly not bad enough to throw out having morals!

So for me then the question becomes what moral framework enables the best outcomes for both myself, and everything outside myself. Loose morals, tight morals.... what are morals!?

If morals are 'principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour' then a moral framework will probably need to orientate enough so to avoid the need to constantly map our behaviours to probable and possible impacts as weighted fields for our gut to breeze through with. We don't want to have to over think everything all the time. In other words, I'm not sure gut feelings are reliable in a complex world as the only light to ones path, but our 'second brain' seems to want to help but I'm not sure modern cultures gives it enough resources to work in the details that we live in these days. In the same way instincts work real good in clear and present danger, but more and more less so in unclear or imagined danger.

Morals and manners are two completely different things. The first is personally set principles and beliefs about what is right and wrong and come from inside. The second are societal expectations of behaviour and come from outside sources. While manners may be a step in the direction toward morals, they should never be confused with morals.

I know growing up the way I did in my circle of life - these type of “codes” were only valid if there were more than one side and some times often a stronger side willing to act on them. Strange because in my life - I wasn’t taught to master much but manipulate force and free choice. Fear and will were imposed. In my study I have found , some where some way our codes or I should say as self reflect - I found my codes to be there and some of em I didn’t have a choice in. Now , I totally do but as far as manners go- I found I could cultivate them. As can we all! Thanks for the dialogue all and I look forward to having more- lots or realizations for me on this small path we are sharing now. Force be with y’all as we all seek it - where ever that may be !

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Morals and manners are two completely different things. The first is personally set principles and beliefs about what is right and wrong and come from inside. The second are societal expectations of behaviour and come from outside sources. While manners may be a step in the direction toward morals, they should never be confused with morals.

I agree. I wasn't confusing them, but showing how they can relate functionally, or dysfunctional, in both directions.

Manners are like flattery. The yield is great, but in the end it is just cheap trick, a not so great mean to an end that is not necessarily better.

Wiser people should know better than to use or be fooled by such tricks. Maybe it's a typical trait of the shadow path, or perhaps excessive love for stoke-on-trent England, but I see value in people most could not even look at.

ren wrote: Manners are like flattery. The yield is great, but in the end it is just cheap trick, a not so great mean to an end that is not necessarily better.

Wiser people should know better than to use or be fooled by such tricks. Maybe it's a typical trait of the shadow path, or perhaps excessive live for stoke-on-trent England, but I see value in people most could not even look at.

So then it would seem like then in that light, manners are for self quality more than society ? They - can -be I should say. Truthful question. Learning as I go as well- I still ain’t got it all down lol but I’m leaning and - it helps (me)

I'd say manners are just being polite, rather then being flattery. To me manners are more like creating space (or acting with caution) in the absence of accurate information. It's not a lie, nor is it sarcasm (which is like fake flattery or fake manners) to me. I guess it boils down to intent, but to me manners inherently have good intent otherwise they are not manners but rather being facetious - which to me seems basically like sarcasm but with the a facade of being genuine. Which is why I associated them across to morals because manners seem only to be a problem when they stop you being able to express yourself, and that decision would be based off a conflict with ones moral position and circumstance of interaction.

Adder wrote: I'd say manners are just being polite, rather then being flattery. To me manners are more like creating space (or acting with caution) in the absence of accurate information. It's not a lie, nor is it sarcasm (which is like fake flattery or fake manners) to me. I guess it boils down to intent, but to me manners inherently have good intent otherwise they are not manners but rather being facetious - which to me seems basically like sarcasm but with the a facade of being genuine. Which is why I associated them across to morals because manners seem only to be a problem when they stop you being able to express yourself, and that decision would be based off a conflict with ones moral position and circumstance of interaction.

Working in sales I know that mimicking a potential victim increases my chances of turning them into a victim. Politeness to them is is the adoption/observance of their standards, and that's what I do to get their business.

Other people have other standards. For example I find people who will encourage anything , pretend to support something they disagree with, etc, absolutely repulsive. In other words, what I do to earn money, I could never do to myself. I would throw myself out of my house. Politeness, manners, standards, whatever you want to name it... Are a weakness that is easily exploited. Preconceptions shape opinions, so he who controls one controls the other.

It's rife at totjo. Some people here go to great lengths to make it happen.

Depends on the stakes as to if someone is being exploited. What is a victory for one person might be trivial for the other. And politeness for no other reason is as predictable as nastiness for no other reason. That manners can be used or abused doesn't seem like a big enough reason to not have manners IMO. Lies and manipulation can occur under all sorts of guises probably.