Why so many people become disappointed with this community

I have seen person after person come to this place over the years and express how perfectly this place seems to be and something they have been searching for all their lives. Then within a few months they are expressing dismay at some of the antics here and doubting their earlier statements and wondering why this place is not actually what they originally perceived it to be. They are disappointed and question whether or not they should remain here.

The problem with dilemmas of this sort is that these people are making a most common critical oversight when it comes to spiritual work. They are looking for something external to themselves to fulfill some desire or angst they have with life. So a journey is started in search of that “perfect niche” in a philosophy or religion or spiritual community that has the perfect dogma to insert themselves into to end that angst in their being. But as they wander from religion to religion and spiritual path to spiritual path in search of that niche they are disappointed over and over because eventually each one fails to live up to that expectation and so they move on to the next. So why is this?

The problem is that this “perfect niche” does not exist externally. External paradigms, like this Jedi community, are limited and therefore can never contain the entirety of our lives. On the other hand our lives are unlimited and can accept and incorporate any number of paradigms. But we do things backwards by spending so much time trying to fit our unlimited lives into the limited paradigm when we should be fitting the limited paradigm into our unlimited lives. And not just one paradigm but many, many paradigms. Taking the bits and pieces from each one and building something inside ourselves that is completely unique and perfectly suited for our personal path.

I have been as guilty of this as anyone and the one thing this place taught me was that I had been doing it backwards. So I say to you now, stop doing things backwards and see this place for what it is, not a perfect place full of perfect Jedi that will fulfill your every desire and end your angst in a perfect way. It is none of those things and it never will be. But so too, no place will ever be. But it (and other paradigms) can be a place where you dismiss what does not speak to you but take what does speak to you and use that to build your own personal internal paradigm that is perfectly suited for you. And when it is built, stick around and share that wisdom with others in places like this so that they may find one more stone for their paradigm. I think this is the true secret that we all search for in this journey. And quite frankly it is the reason I remain here.

You know I have seen these posts and they are a dime a dozen of late as last several years on this Temple. I normally do not respond to them anymore because I think there are pointless waste of time. You know I've had my issues before and have expressed them stated my case but if come to some sort of mutual agreement between the council and myself and have moved on some people need to move on. I stayed before yes people come in with his huge euphoria that this is what they've been looking for all their lives but just like any human being on this Earth they get bored and tired of it it's no different than joining any mainstream religious organization. Either somebody offends them or they're not getting the reaction or attention they feel they deserve so therefore they get crossed with the temple and the community and they either leave or they just stop posting or sharing their feelings or thoughts all together. This may sound a little insensitive get over it you know when you look at the air balance of things this Temple as a whole despite all the differences in personalities and viewpoints and failures is a great place to be. There is such a big amount of knowledge and resources that are free to use and people who are ranked Jedi Masters and teachers who are by the way not paid for their advice and direction spiritually because they love people and want to encourage others. The temple could downright start charging a membership fee to be part of this Temple and have access to the resources if they wanted to but it is remain free over the years I've been here and I think those who are involved. Point Blank I don't mean to be insensitive again but some people just need to get over it this is an old subject and it's time to move on...

I’m sure that’s the reason some people have, but certainly not all.
Your point is important and people should keep themselves in check to make sure they’re not falling into that. It’s not always easy to separate the path and the community, but it’s essential, just as you said.
I don’t think every dissatisfied person has wanted perfection...

There can be a place where an individual can grow. It can be a place or it can be a idea or it can be a mix or even anything we choose. We all grow in different ways. Jedi - or not - we as humans can grow. I’m glad I found this place. Each of us have our own testimony to this place and tomotjer means. I can’t tell you how much I’ve had as far as insight from sitting under a tree. Honestly.
A nitch can be different for each of us as our own fingerprint. We can share them or learn from them and evem learn more. During my time in service- I was in the Army I learned the the phrase - “adjust fire as you run.” Now during time of peace and real life- the applications are WAY different but still applicable. It’s all up to how we as individuals apply and try - what we know.

To put it simply, I think some people become disappointed because they forget that this digital space is inhabited by HUMANS. We are biased. We can be emotional. We come from a wide variety of backgrounds and have an even greater number of opinions. The very fact that we encourage diversity and syncretism means that each of us will inevitably rub up against an idea or opinion we are not comfortable with. The question is, do you explore that idea and debate those opinions in the search of greater knowledge and wisdom in order to better yourself, or do you blame the discomfort on the community and storm off in a tantrum being no better off than when you arrived?

Since I'm assuming this is directed at me at least in part, I will take a moment to answer.

I'm farthest from perfection as one can be. I do not expect perfection from anyone. But I do expect the effort of trying to adhere to the moral code and principals of the religion (since we are talking about a temple and a religion here).

In a religion, I also expect the leadership and clergy of the temple to be doing a better job than the rest of us at living up to those. They are supposed to be the best of the best and the shining example for the congregation.

I also don't expect the leaders and clergy to say "Hey, we're only human." as an excuse for themselves and others failing. That excuse is fine for a social media group - but not a religion.

I can't speak for those that came before me, but I think the reason you see this trend, is because I think that is happening to many others who have come here expecting a religion, and not a typical internet forum.

Just my lowly opinion.

While I am only human, I do expect to be held accountable for my actions because I can only see my side of the elephant. My philosophy as a Knight and Minister of the order is not to tell you what I am capable of, rather allow my actions speak for my character. There are thousands of flavors of people here and I don't lay claim that any way is right, but as a premise, I think its good to humble ourselves as only human to remain willing to be flexible to learn as our culture continuously changes. But that comes with knowing that within these roles, I have the obligation to represent the whole while also being reflected by the whole, simultaneously.

I hope the stirring of the waters (conflict) doesn't give a poor reflection as to what is. My only position now is to be an example. This is not to pass the blame on the whole, as the need for accountability is important, but as I tell my brothers and sisters, be the reason someone believes in that essence you seek. For what it's worth, when time passes, I hope it passes with happiness and freedom for those suffering this conflict.

I can't really speak for anyone else but I can offer my point of view from my own experiences and I summarize it all down to false advertising. But not necessarily intentional false advertising. I was that super excited person coming to the temple just as you describe. I saw doctrine I saw ip program I saw a community of people who all believed the same thing. Then I made it up through the ranks and learned it was all bullshit, doctrine was optional, knighthood training was not consistent from one to the next, and I don't mean just the personalization where its based on what someone has already learned or needs to focus on I'm all for that part but what gets focused on in general can literally be anything you want.

The temple is from a guest view a place to train to become real world...dare I say practical jediism. But once you get into the private area's and realize how things actually work its more of a melting pot for a rainbow of colors and definitions for what people call themselves as Jedi, but get to pick and choose whatever pieces they want and then throw the title on it. It's more of a subway restaurant then anything really...you come for a subway sandwich from a subway store and the people next to you are buying pizza's and salads and calling it subway..I mean all the power to them but that's not what attracted me here so to see it not be what you originally hope for or perceive can be almost a sense of betrayal really. Since there really isn't too many other communities of the same quantity out there you can also get a strong since of abandonment out of it, combine the two and you have people who leave and only come back once in a great while or hang around as a guest, or just never come back. Maybe find another community, or you decide that what it is, is still fine and you climb the rank anyway.

I think the face of the temple needs a revisit, I think things could be far more well described and explained earlier on then later if there are people willing and have the time to put into such a project so expectations are set properly from the get go and not left to the individuals imagination as they come in only to be let down. (though not all are let down). Titles can be a sense of self accomplishment but that gets cheapened by the fact there isn't a standard, people enjoy there positive feelings and there's just too many ways they can get let down in the current system.

Tellahane,
I've considered your points, and all I see is confirmation of what Kyrin posted earlier. You came here with an expectation for what this Temple should be for you, and when it didn't meet that expectation, you were disappointed. You are holding certain people, this Temple, and the entire Jedi community to standards that you feel are appropriate without considering that everyone else is possibly doing the same and disagreeing with your idea of Jedi. Now you choose to call that discrepancy a failure on the Temple's part, rather than accept that this is purposely an environment meant for people to find their own paths while incorporating what knowledge and wisdom we may have to offer.

It is offensive that you would say it is "all bullshit" simply because it did not work for you. It is not "false advertising" simply because you had wishful thinking as you walked through the door. In fact, we specifically discourage TOTJO Jedi from putting too much value in titles and ranks so as to avoid disappointment. Be wary of attachments, learn to let go of all you love, all that jazz you can find all over the Teachings and Maxims.

As you have pointed out, there are any number of other places you can go to inform your own spirituality, or you can build your own that works for you outside of any existing community. Returning here to slam this one only shows me that there is some value to what we are doing here, or you wouldn't feel the need to spend your time disparaging it.

What i see - this is from my heart only - is this place at a self paced theme. At your own time , in your own time and with your own time is the way we as humans learn- one of many possible ways. To get mad at the book or the subject is what I notice all to often unused to do. The blame game comes to mind- BUT that’s what I used to do. It was one of the things I had to - un learn to do. This web site didn’t do that for me - although after a time here it did become obvious to me in my real life. This place is s place to share and grow - a living library. I used to get upset at places like this because I 1. Didn’t understand them and 2 . I Just wanted to blame some one else for me not making the effort and take that focus off me. To those who use and apply it the Temple can be a valuable thing. To those who don’t - well... the opposite can be said as well.

@Onllwyn (and Telehane)

Who are you expecting these things from? Just yourself or others? And what happens when others don’t live up to your expectations? Why do you put others on a pedestal in this way and then judge them if and when they fall off in your eyes? Are they something more than human to you? Incapable of error or failure? Do you perceive them as some form of demigod?

This place is not a hierarchy where the greater the rank the greater the wisdom. It is a cooperative of peers all seeking the same answers to the same questions. No one here is better or more able to live the life of a Jedi than any other. I don't care if you’re a master knight or a guest. We are all equal in navigating this experience the best we each can. And for one of us to judge the others is an incorrect attitude based in hubris.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to lead you and others. To dictate what to think and how to act and what to believe. You want things to be simple and neat and tidy and if there is an issue an authority figure will spit out the answer, not to be questioned under pain of punishment.

Fortunately this "church" does not do things that way. This is a place you can come and find the answers you seek but YOU have to do the work, study the human condition, decide for yourself what is right, and then live that construct to the best of your ability. The biggest part of that is allowing others to live theirs in the same way. It’s not fair for you place your disappointment at the feet of others that you have decided deserve it because they failed some standard you alone decided to hold them to and then use it as an excuse to leave. If you use this place the way it’s intended the only one that will have the power to disappoint you spiritually is yourself.

I must have written something like 10 (maybe more) resignation letters in my time here. I've thought about leaving at least once every two weeks. The commonalities in these moments is: expectation. If I expect nothing, I cannot be disappointed.

If being a Jedi were easy, everyone would do it.
"Training to become a Jedi is not an easy challenge, and even if you succeed, it’s a hard life."
-- Qui-Gon Jinn

Senan wrote: Tellahane,
I've considered your points, and all I see is confirmation of what Kyrin posted earlier. You came here with an expectation for what this Temple should be for you, and when it didn't meet that expectation, you were disappointed. You are holding certain people, this Temple, and the entire Jedi community to standards that you feel are appropriate without considering that everyone else is possibly doing the same and disagreeing with your idea of Jedi. Now you choose to call that discrepancy a failure on the Temple's part, rather than accept that this is purposely an environment meant for people to find their own paths while incorporating what knowledge and wisdom we may have to offer.

It is offensive that you would say it is "all bullshit" simply because it did not work for you. It is not "false advertising" simply because you had wishful thinking as you walked through the door. In fact, we specifically discourage TOTJO Jedi from putting too much value in titles and ranks so as to avoid disappointment. Be wary of attachments, learn to let go of all you love, all that jazz you can find all over the Teachings and Maxims.

As you have pointed out, there are any number of other places you can go to inform your own spirituality, or you can build your own that works for you outside of any existing community. Returning here to slam this one only shows me that there is some value to what we are doing here, or you wouldn't feel the need to spend your time disparaging it.

All of those things have been said to me before and I spent a great deal of time considering on them, and I know I'm not the best at explaining things but the bullshit comment was more about how I felt about it when that came to fruition so it was a personal feeling more then an overall judgement so that's a fault on mine.

However in response to that whole view, while yes it did not work for me, I'm clearly not the only one. Most importantly you make it sound like I'm only here to "disparage" it, the entire point of this thread was asking why people are disappointing, I answered from my point of view. Has there been any other thread by me post my leaving of my position that has been GO AWAY FROM TOTJO ITS A TRAP? seriously you asked I answered, you make it sound like i'm in some campaign, I'm not lol. My disappointment in the view of the system is more based now a days on the fact that it comes down to purely a write 20,000 words down of gibberish, and win a popularity contest, and bam you are a Jedi/knight/insert your title here. Yes it wasn't the path for me, yes it's a place with multiple possibilities, but it does not present itself as such. I'm not saying it needs to change to be the way I want, I'm saying it could be far more honest from the moment you land on the home page then it is now. A document much like...Idk reviews for a product but get 3-4 people who've made it up into knighthood to type up their descriptions of totjo and put it out there as a what is the temple of the jedi order and hit all of those points your talking about senan would go A LONG Way here.


***EDIT: Also for the sake of record if it was my purpose to continue to try and push my views on others I would not have resigned from my position, because my skillset and time I provided we're probably far more valuable to the temple then my views, my "title" and my "views" were causing more problems then they were solving so I did the appropriate thing. Most people ignore posts with titles of "guest" which is the most appropriate place for me and my views ya?

Literally right here on the home page:

"A Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order (TotJO) follows our Doctrine, though all are welcome to register an account and participate as a guest."

This is not true...this is false advertising, I'm on trying to attack I'm just trying to point out area's that could be improved for the goal of the temple, this is not a personal vendetta, I'm trying to explain a way to improve your melting pot. You asked, I'm giving opinion. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask! or just say "stay out of it, and off I go."

Don't get all upset about asking a question and having expectations of my answers and then give me a speech about how my expectations issue was not what you expected in your expectations.

Can we literally just chill out and look at things objectively for a moment?

I suppose my reasons may not have been for a want of perfection, but could very well be expectations not being met... even if those were my own of myself more than anything.
I will be honest and say there was more than a few reasons for me, and some of them were other Jedi and their actions (or inactions...).

But then, it makes me wonder..

Kyrin, you’ve stated your reasons for remaining a guest here recently - are those because of unmet expectations or wanting the perfect place? So I, too, asked for and want to remain a guest for similar (perhaps plus some) of the same reasons you do..
I guess I’m asking because some of your reasons are my own, not because I’m trying to call you out or anything.
Your post made me think and I’m just wondering if maybe some level of expectation is called for or if I need to re-re-re-evaluate (again) my own hold ups. Which I honestly do quite frequently..
Can we or should we really not have some expectations/requirements of some things?

Reliah wrote: Can we or should we really not have some expectations/requirements of some things?

This has been what I've tried tasking myself to answer and have not been able to, to date. I think its a philosophical idea that one should not have any expectations and then you can't be disappointing. At the same time we have to no matter what have SOME expectations. I Expect when I move my leg forward gravity will pull it back down again. I expect that when I push certain medications they will do as they are designed in order to save someones life.

The same phrase can be replaced with emotions, if you don't put yourself out there you can't get hurt. However if you don't put yourself out there or open yourself up you miss out on what could be the most amazing experience of your life. Insert any other topic here of the same scope and there tends to be a "balance" required or for those who believe in balance at any rate, or even just that no matter what you do there will always be a minimum amount or a maximum amount of any given thing. You can't fully embrace or shut down any of those aspects, at least I've never met or heard of anyone with any evidence of doing so. So to say you shouldn't have any, for me as a personal opinion, is a bit of a stretch.

Well, I say that, but I am often disappointed. I'm not a paragon of detachment. If I can sit enough and look at the root I can see that it is expectation. Its important for me to make time to sit, though.

When it comes to expectations and disappointments I think its better to stop (again personal opinion) looking at them as a consequence or polar opposite, detach disappointments from expectations and you can still have expectations, just simply don't be disappointed if they aren't met. Easier said then done though right? for those who study/believe living in the now, your expectation passed with the result of said event, of which is now in the past, so why be disappointed when you can focus on the now?

Rosalyn J wrote: Well, I say that, but I am often disappointed. I'm not a paragon of detachment. If I can sit enough and look at the root I can see that it is expectation. Its important for me to make time to sit, though.

Is there ever a time after the sitting has been done that you have felt that an expectation was valid?
Or are no expectations ever valid?


Edit: I feel like I worded this poorly...
Maybe instead of that I mean - have you ever sat with something and realized it wasn’t an expectation but something valid to feel that way about?
And then how do you tell the difference and what do you do with it?

Maybe that’s what I meant...

Maybe both..

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @Onllwyn (and Telehane)

Who are you expecting these things from? Just yourself or others? And what happens when others don’t live up to your expectations? Why do you put others on a pedestal in this way and then judge them if and when they fall off in your eyes? Are they something more than human to you? Incapable of error or failure? Do you perceive them as some form of demigod?

This place is not a hierarchy where the greater the rank the greater the wisdom. It is a cooperative of peers all seeking the same answers to the same questions. No one here is better or more able to live the life of a Jedi than any other. I don't care if you’re a master knight or a guest. We are all equal in navigating this experience the best we each can. And for one of us to judge the others is an incorrect attitude based in hubris.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to lead you and others. To dictate what to think and how to act and what to believe. You want things to be simple and neat and tidy and if there is an issue an authority figure will spit out the answer, not to be questioned under pain of punishment.

Fortunately this "church" does not do things that way. This is a place you can come and find the answers you seek but YOU have to do the work, study the human condition, decide for yourself what is right, and then live that construct to the best of your ability. The biggest part of that is allowing others to live theirs in the same way. It’s not fair for you place your disappointment at the feet of others that you have decided deserve it because they failed some standard you alone decided to hold them to and then use it as an excuse to leave. If you use this place the way it’s intended the only one that will have the power to disappoint you spiritually is yourself.

If this is how you have interpreted my answer, I'm not sure how any amount of explaining could possibly do. If you choose to deflect the concerns of others so completely. What is the point of discussion? I never said any of that, and you have simply decided what I meant to fit your narrative.