Cultural Sensitivity/Appropriation and Anger

I know that this is a topic that's likely rampant in the forums, but it's something that been bugging me all day.

A friend posted an item from the Disney store, a new product for the film "Moana." It's the equivalent of a Hulk suit: padded muscle jumpsuit modeled after one of the main characters, Maui, a demigod. Its got rope necklace and leaf skirt, and Maui's Pacific Island tattoos all over it. He was livid about it as wa EVERYONE ELSE. Except one person who asked "What's the big deal? Isn't this the same as...." Whose comment was instantly deleted for being "ignorant and disrespectful"

I, uncultured white person that I am, am really having a hard time understanding the absolute ire that his post incurred: anger, anger, anger. Everybody getting angry. Righteous, fiery anger. I understand the reason behind it - the wish to ensure that people of different cultures are respected. Where is the line between a costume for kids that is a direct representation of a movie character and a culturally insensitive piece of racist garbage?

I hear so often "I'm tired of arguing this..." and yet, they keep talking about it and getting angry about it and spending so much energy on negativity. It's starting to bum ME out just seeing it. Not seeing the the desire to respect others, but seeing the terribly angry way it's being done.

How does a Jedi expected to handle this kind of phenomenon? Getting involved is out of the question, but not getting involved ensures that it keeps happening. It's frustrating...

It's interesting. People can take offense at anything and take any extent of offense no less... but that cannot be avoided entirely for all people all the time - but we can minimize someone taking offense to some extent by not trying to cause offense. So I think intention to this needs to be the baseline assessment of whether the person taking offense is justified in leveling wrongdoing to someone.

Then there is the always present reality of different levels of cultural awareness - just like individuals have different sensitivities. So this needs to be considered as well in assessing someones intention to offend. But a sensitivity risks becoming a fragility when the reaction is not associated with intention. Being fragile might not be a bad thing, but it might be something the person themselves needs to manage rather then expecting the rest of the world to somehow both be aware of its existence and change their behaviour - if not just for the reason that we cannot control everyone we might meet. Intention seems key to me.

So while I have not really read too much about this 'brown face' complaint, I'm not sure if the intention was to insult or offend so I'd have to wonder if the originating culture had a pre-established perspective on this type of representation eg. is representations of their deities allowed, is there a history of discriminatory behaviour with the 'brown face' itself - to see if it was a lack of cultural intelligence on the product developer. I think people should make an effort not to offend, but to a realistic extent (ie practical effort shaped by good intention). That is how I currently see the issue more broadly. But yea, some people enjoy being angry despite its impact on them.

I think the best way to deal with this is to try to be a voice of reason and if reason will not be heard then you must leave them to their anger. One can act as a lantern in the dark but you cant drag the traveler down the road. At least not without setting down your own light leaving you both blind.

There was a article before the movie made its call to cast. It said something like and I'm not quoting directly, I'll look for it shortly, but something like Disney new character is fat. Then compared the character to a A list of Pacific islander actors stars and said this isn't fat, this guy is. A few months later The rock is playing his voice and has no problem portraying the demi God. The drama comes from the writer and their take on things. Some takes are not smart. Some seem adolescent but you get what u payed for. I am a Jedi and have noticed there have been, here where I am at least, a Flux of new stories and myths emerging from all over. I love it. Bring me more stories to think on and research so I can tell my family the story over and over again. Because of jungle book, we have Kippling. A many other examples could be listed but what I see to me is silly people kicking against the pricks. People just causing drama where there is no drama. Seems like America to me suffers from Munchausen type of thought when it comes to the media at times to me, but that's just my take.

Tsst.

So, I'm part of a nation that is just over 200 years old.

A baby in those terms, and we (I use a fairly general we here. My family only came here a generation ago, but I'm white, so it doesn't count :huh: ) took this land with some fairly keen attempts at genocide.

It happened.

The "Take-away" is, I don't get much "cultural" cred - Everything I have, eat, wear, listen to etc is stolen/appropriated.

I can understand, on paper I suppose, why a "cultural group" gets upset at their identity being used (and sometimes not accurately) for any purpose - being profit, someone elses entertainment, or what-have-you.

But, rightly or wrongly, I more or less hold the view that "It's one world"- You want Japanese Cars, Chinese Clothes, Canadian Maple Syrup, American Movies, Swiss army knives, German beer etc etc - Well, then maybe you have to share your tattoos and hairstyles, and accept that other people might use them differently than your traditional ways dictate.


So, rage out on Facebook if you want.

It might be worth remembering where Facebook came from (Hint: It wasn't the pacific islands)

The vast majority of people when reacting to this sort of nonsense, aren't genuinely offended, they've found sustenance and jump at the chance. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the world is a vampire. People overreact to nonsense because it feels good. They group together, and get downright belligerent and hostile, because stupid sh!t like this gives them the opportunity to do so, and alot of it is due to repressed emotions as a result of living in a society of repressed individuals.

What can you as a Jedi do about it? Cut it out of your life, immediately. You're not going to sway the mind of anyone who's quick to jump on the "offended bandwagon." Remember, this essentially has little to nothing to do about being genuinely offended. Their giving Into their dark side because they've been brought up in a repressed society. And now everything but the very worst behavior is tolerated, if not glorified.

Focus on the good you can do, and find those that want to listen...

I am Italian.
We have Berlusconi, pizza, mafia and our prime minister isn't able to say a single phrase in english but still refuse to use a translator and is really embarrassing. Some months ago I was in Cairo (Egypt) and the first thing my friends said when I arrived was "I have seen your prime minister, hilarious!". Martin Shultz publicly said our politicians are the worst (and it's true).
Here we are not talking about racism, because we are not a minority of some kind, but the whole world makes fun of us for some good or bad reasons (80% Italians really are as jokes describe them).
Now, should that 20% furiously rage against everyone that tell a joke about Italy? I don't think so. Personally, I do not.
When different cultures meet (Italy and UK, Germany and Japan or Maori and USA) the main topic is what is different between these two cultures (we talk 99% about difference and 1% about similarities, if you want an example just check the chat when there are 6 or 7 people online), so, in my opinion, this whole event is just a manifestation of one of these differences between two cultures meeting. I would not say that it can be seen as a valorisation of cultural identity but I would not take it as an offence either.

Let it be. Whilst it is wrong, we, white people, have been disgusting to everyone else. (Not individually, but as a race). The British Empire. Holocaust. Both Wars cause by a white guy. Let the minorities have their revenge, and when it's over, there will be peace.

There are individuals that can be made to be responsible. The color of their skin seems to be a main focus. The "hype" seems to be every where. It's location is never in one sole place. Names and labels help divide. In this case, dividing lines are present. Journalist some times forget this. Some journalist don't care the magnitude of the labels and names they put on things. To them its just a story. I say let the fake elites and opposition continue. That's part of it I guess now, with out opposition there can be no progress. Sad we have to pay such a high price for receiving such gifts from other s. It's a movie about their story and some one has to razz them or make fun of it some how. No names. Just a part of the whole "gig" I guess. Shaking my head. I'm had I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. None of us do.

As Americans it seems we are quickly losing the ability to think for ourselves. We need to teach critical thinking at a much earlier age, like every year stating in the first grade! Without the ability to think for ourselves we get angry at what we are told to be angry about. We get offended at what we are told should offend us. Yet at the same time we turn a blind eye to real issues such as political grandstanding and lifetime politicians who are only trying to line their pockets off the backs of not only Americans, but the world community as well. I don't really care if a football player kneels during a song. Plain and simple, he has the right. We may not like it, but he has the freedom to do so and the right to do so. This right was given to him by every person that has ever served in the American military. Some find it disrespectful. What I find disrespectful is the waste and corruption that is running wild in our government, but people would rather worry about a football player not standing. What about all of the Senators and other politicians that do not stand during the same song? Where was the "outrage" then? The outrageously outraged in this country (USA) has become nearly a political party in itself. Maybe instead of telling everyone we should be mad about this or that, we should start telling people that thank you for your political service, but your term is up...goodbye. As part of the Jedi community I try to represent us as thinking, compassionate, and as having unshakable integrity. Am I fallible, yes. Do I always have the right answer, no. But I do have integrity, I can adopt multiple perspectives, and I practice reflection which gives me intuitive understanding of the world around me. Hopefulness, wonder, humility, dedication, insight, joy, kindness, nurturance, self-investigation, openness, and patience are the qualities we need to embrace, not undying anger and hatred for everything we are told to be angry about and hate. I was not going to add to this discussion, but I felt I had to say something. I usually sit back and watch how things unfold, but as a Jedi we have to not only know when to act, but when not to as well.
Peace and Light
May the Force guide us all in these trying times

This might come off as pessimistic, but you simply cannot change the world. These people, right or wrong, whether they outgrow this phase or not, simply are what they are. And you cannot change it.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals..." - Agent K, Men In Black

You mention a post getting deleted, which makes me assume that we are talking some online environment. For what it's worth, in my experience people tend to be more vicious online, I'm not sure if it's the anonymity or the physical distance, or what exactly. But when you deal with these same people offline - and that will usually happen as a meeting with one person, not a whole group - this person (singular now) is much more reasonable and open to talking about things.

So, while I said at first that you cannot change the world, you CAN however exert influence in the person around you. And that's all that really matters, I suppose. Hopefully, your positive influence will cause ripples in the people pond.

Manu wrote: So, while I said at first that you cannot change the world, you CAN however exert influence in the person around you. And that's all that really matters, I suppose. Hopefully, your positive influence will cause ripples in the people pond.

Big changes very often start very small. Changes this big will have to be done one person at a time. It won't happen quickly, but in time, I think changes for the better will happen.

I'm sorry you've been on the receiving end of unproductive anger. I also feel bad for that one person who asked and, rather than getting an answer, got a bunch of zealots raging on about something they may or may not have any actual experience with. Sometimes I wish I had a mirror I could hold up whenever I see that sort of thing so people could see how foolish their behavior is, but such at it is there is no such mirror and they will have to learn the hard way as I did.

First let's be clear that when we talk about appropriation we're talking about a very specific kind context of people from one culture taking something from another culture--the item, material or not, has been removed from its cultural context. While white people of Western European and North American origins have been and continue to be some of the most flagrant perpetrators, appropriation is possible by almost every people-group. All that is required is the removal of a cultural item from its context.

Cultural appropriation is harmful because, unlike cultural appreciation, it removes the item from its context--often times for profit. In the case of a Moana, I can see why people would feel like that's cultural appropriation. The film itself I've heard nothing but good things about thus far, in part because it's a celebration of an indigenous culture and one which is rarely covered except in a bland and non-specific way as the creepy savages on some island far from home. It has been the case throughout the past couple hundred years that costumes have been a way that the appropriating culture has been able to remove items and symbols of significance to another culture from their context within that culture. This kind of thing often cheapens or completely erases the significance of those symbols and their significance (i.e. like Native American war bonnets). To make matters worse, often times items appropriated are replicated in cheap and unbecoming ways while the authentic version in its proper context is scorned by the people appropriating it (see just about any fashion style black people have created).

Inb4: what about this or that item of clothing I bought from such and such a vendor who was of the culture? Depends, but generally I'd you're in the clear. One thing you have to be careful of is that sometimes people sell stuff only because they know white people will buy it (I can't tell you how many 'Native' shops I've seen selling war bonnets).

Basically I distinguish appreciation vs. appropriation with a few examples:

Appreciation:
Learning the language of a people
Learning the history and cultural development of a people
Learning how culturally specific clothing is made traditionally

Appropriation:
'Chinese' character tattoos
Using stories from other cultures as a background to sell your decontextualized book, film, television show, etc.
Wearing cheap imitations of traditional clothing (i.e. Dashikis on white people, 'henna' tattoos, white people with bantu knots)

Jamie Stick wrote: Cultural appropriation is harmful because, unlike cultural appreciation, it removes the item from its context--often times for profit.

Jamie, I still don't understand why cultural appropriation is harmful, as in the case of Elvis or Eminem. Could you expand?

Nice post Jamie, and I don't disagree generally with the information as you've presented it


I was going to write something else, but I've changed my mind, (I'm not sure what I am going to write is better )


It is interesting that you use a modifed Game graphic to make your point -

Gaming is my culture. I was knee deep in table top games, card games, computers, early consoles, etc etc.

From where I'm standing - My culture has been appropriated and is now used by the masses for cheap thrills and easy money.

(Yes, I know it's not thousands of years old - but I grew up with it, it was who my friends and I were - It was our culture as much as anything)

I can choose to be bitter about it, and call anyone I see enjoying that "culture" (bastardised though it is) a faker and a thief - or I can be glad they are enjoying something that is a part of myself, and maybe use that as a link to teach them more about the origins and stories, the way we used to do it, and it's noble heritage.


So, if you're chinese, next time you see someone with a chinese character tattoo - ask if they want to learn more about the meanings of the strokes, or history of the words.

white people with bantu knots

"White people" eh?
Some of my best friends are white (Serbian, German, Scottish....) would argue their skin colour is the least of their qualities, but anyway.

Does that mean if I see a "Person of Colour" with a Mullet I can call them out :lol:



Edit: I'm not sure if this argument is more rational, but I'll throw it out there in case it gets more traction than the Gaming one -


Blue Jeans were invented in 1873 by a Bavarian and a Latvian, in San Francisco, USA.

Whose Culture is Blue Jeans?

Can Indians wear Blue Jeans? Can Japanese wear Blue Jeans? Can I?

If I have a chance to say my piece I will. Usually I ignor ignorant people. They're a wast of positive energy in most cases. Sometimes you can be a positive influence. They may or may not change. Let them live their lives as they wish

Part of it, to me, is about intent. Is the intent to mock or celebrate? In the case of the children's costume that's celebratory. That child wants to be that character because they think that character is cool and awesome and they want to be that cool and awesome. Sports team names like the Kansas City Chiefs and the Chicago Black Hawks are meant to be in praise of those groups, because you don't name your sports team after things you don't like. Adopting clothing trends, jewelry, hairstyles, things like that that you're doing for more than one day are also meant to be celebratory. People do it because they think it's cool, so they emulate it. Ever hear the phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?"

Now, I think people who adopt things from other cultures should learn about them, but mostly because knowing about them usually only serves to make it cooler to me.

It bugs me that people can get this worked up over a children's Halloween costume. Really? Is it that important to you? Just let it go and you'll live a happier life not caring about how everyone else in the world lives. You can't control other people, just yourself, so move on and be happy. But, who am I to tell you how to live your life. You want to get upset over every little thing, go ahead. I'll be over here rocking out because I don't care. :laugh:

I wasn't born into a culture. I saw how those around me behaved, how my family engaged in their cultures. But I am not my father. There are parts of his culture which depend on when and where he was born. And his culture is not my grandfather's, nor my great grandfather's. Actually, I suspect that if you were to compare my Sicilian great grandfather's culture to mine, there wouldn't be many similarities. Each of us appropriates the culture around us. You appropriate your parents culture, imperfectly, and you eventually create your own culture as a result. Cultural appropriation isn't a bad thing (unless it's purposely making a mockery of that culture), it's something we all use throughout our lives and is necessary for any of us to have any culture at all.

Jamie Stick wrote: While white people of Western European and North American origins have been and continue to be some of the most flagrant perpetrators, appropriation is possible by almost every people-group.

I don't think that's fair. Look at turn of the century East Asia. It was common practice in major countries such as China and Japan to majorly appropriate European and American culture. Compare Japan before they wrote a constitution (solely for the purpose of appropriating Western culture to artificially increase trade) and their entire cultural history to modern Japan. Japan has changed dramatically in a short period of time, and that is a direct result of cultural appropriation of the West's architecture, economics, music, art, literature, etcetera. Cultural appropriation really shouldn't be majorly attributed to a single race or ethnic group.

i do think that movie makers should present their movies with a basic respect for the cultures represented, and that people who are deliberately offensive earn the reactions that they get from those whom they offend

that being said, my culture believes that every individual has a basic right to freedom, self expression, and the pursuit of their own personal identity

and thats a belief that i wish everyone would appropriate