Upbringing

We are not a product of our surroundings, we are who we want to be. Thoughts?

Causal determinism seems to be the most viable philosophical model regarding free will. At least, I have yet to see a serious philosophical publication which presents an acceptable argument against causal determinism, and all of those arguments which say that we have free will (or that free will and determinism can easily work together) that I have seen have been unsatisfactory. Free will is certainly a nice idea, and one which may provide people with hope or joy, and may even be useful to reach certain ends. But what is "nice" or what is "useful" is not necessarily true, and truth is to be valued above all else in my opinion.

Outside of philosophy and into science, classical conditioning and operant conditioning are accepted in the psychology/cognitive science fields as fact. So even if we are who we want to be, there are significant factors which contribute to us wanting things. We have certain associations to certain things based on how we've been conditioned, and generally speaking we tend to act in line with that conditioning. Not to mention the massive success that therapy involving seeking out the roots of behaviors in early life, the significant tendency of human lives to fall in line with the established models of psychological development, and so on.

On a surface level it appears to us that we are acting in line with our own will, but our will is determined by our surroundings. In turn, we are only acting in accordance with previous events, and our actions in turn become causes of subsequent events.

Prelalo wrote: We are not a product of our surroundings, we are who we want to be.

You might be. But I'm not. I'm certainly a product of my surroundings, especially my surroundings when I was a youth. Who I want to be is almost completely different from who I am in every way, and who I am is largely a product of who I was until I got to this point - which was determined by my surroundings, among other things.

To elaborate: both of my parents are self-confessed assholes, to varying degrees and in different ways. Do you think I was raised to develop a sunny, cheery disposition, or do you think I also grew up to become an asshole? Just about anyone here knows the answer.

Prelalo wrote: We are not a product of our surroundings, we are who we want to be. Thoughts?

We are a product of our surroundings first and foremost. After that, we choose to fight it. It's an uphill battle where the enemy is relentless, tireless, and better equipped (from my experience). It's a war I've been fighting for 15 years.

I was abused by my mother and picked up all her programming. Which I've been untangling for a very very long time. I'm not who she made me anymore but I'm not me totally yet either.

But she is almost completely a creature of her environment. Of what her own upbringing and abuse made her.

I can only speak from my experience but it's easier to be a product of our surroundings than who we can grow to become. But that's also a choice we make.

Prelalo wrote: We are not a product of our surroundings, we are who we want to be. Thoughts?

the idea that we can transcend our environment is probably an idea we picked up from some part of our environment to begin with - something in your environment suggested to you that you can choose to be whoever you want to be

our "surroundings" are complex beyond our ability to comprehend

the myriad elements of it are not at all homogeneous - we have conflicting influences surrounding us all of the time

you might say that we select and pursue the parts of our environment which most appeal to our nature - but it can also be said that our environment is what teaches us - or STRONGLY SUGGESTS to us, which elements of our environment and aspects of our nature are going to be the most efficient or rewarding to pursue - being raised by "Mexican Mafia" compared to being raised by Jedi Knights for example, each environment will suggest, reward and emphasize differences particular to that environment

but even while one part of the environment way deliberately try to influence us in a particular direction, in most cases there will be other parts of the environment which suggest to us and maybe allow opportunity for us to pursue another direction entirely

our environment (nurture) presents us with scenarios and choices and usually also suggests preferences, which we recognize and evaluate according to our own interpretive models and desires (nature)

we choose, and our choices result in new environmental scenarios and influences

so it is a back-and-forth relationship between the person and the world, and nearly every discipline from which I have inquired from behavioral psychology to evolutionary biology, sociology, even economics when you look at things like socioeconomic status and the ways that people tend to stay in their status vs the instances where people change status, what i am seeing and being told is that our reality is one of nature AND nurture, rather than nature OR nurture

free will?

we do have a certain degree of free will

we are able to observe and analyse and judge different bits of information

from this we can develop plans, and we can act, more or less according to our plans (at least in theory lol)

if we planned well, then we get the results we planned for

we can even apply this to our own personalities - which is what personal growth and cognitive/behavior therapy is all about

just because you are deathly afraid of spiders today does not mean that you have to be deathly afraid of them forever

we do have some ability to change

Jamie shared a pretty cool article awhile back on neuroscience making a case that we have no "self" which you can find here:

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Science/114535-neuroscience-learns-what-buddhism-has-known-for-ages-there-is-no-constant-self

and as the title and article mention, religious traditions all over the world actually have postulated that who we were yesterday does not have to be who we are today

BUT

there is also a very strong case that we are born with specific traits and temperaments, with a lot of research and experimental evidence

http://psychology.about.com/od/personalitydevelopment/a/bigfive.htm

big five model being

extroversion
agreeableness
conscientiousness
neuroticism
openness

that we are all some blend of these, and that our personalities can be basically rated on a scale of each of them

here is an experiment with babies to test "attachment styles" which was called "the strange situation"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1m_ZMO7GU

different babies react differently in this situation, each according to their own "attachment style"

what is being observed here are patterns of emotional response which are already developed in toddlerhood

our temperaments and attachment styles are known to be fairly consistent throughout life, although some changes are known to happen as a consequence of life maturation, experience and personal initiative, all of which involve both nature and nurture

here is a fairly quick to read article on how we may change personality traits over time: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201509/can-you-change-your-personality

this pdf is more in depth and will take a little bit longer to read, but if youre interested in the topic, its pretty good:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~sputnam/rothbart-temperament-questionnaires/pdf/temp-persnlty-origins-outcomes.pdf

We are both.

I agree with what Kit said about being the product of our surroundings first, anything else we had to fight for. I don't think that I'd listen to 80's music, love the show M*A*S*H*, ride a motorcycle, or do martial arts if I hadn't grown up with all of those things.

For me it's a constant worry, mostly that I'll turn out exactly like my father. In many ways that would be a good thing, but there are also many ways in which I don't want to be like him. All of those things I have to work for. My default is how I was raised.

I am a product of my efforts and time.

I am what I say and do today. My upbringing may influence what I choose to say and do today, but it is not who I am. I cannot change the past and I don't know what tomorrow will bring, but I can decide what I do or say right now. Hopefully I am making the choices that will make me the person I want to be. If not, I will try again tomorrow.

Thank you everybody for your insights. I brought up this topic because I feel that I am different from the family and friends I was raised around, and drug free with no arrests despite the community I was raised in. I always felt we are who we want to be, we don't have to follow the "monkey see, monkey do" scenario, and sometimes it's not a bad thing to stray from the beaten path of your peers. After reading I realize our upbringing is what makes you either a fighter or a follower, I'm sure if I was raised in a different atmosphere I would be the one with negative influence on life and surroundings.

As is said in this topic, we are products of our surroundings, especially early in life. What we choose to do with that exposure, during and after, is (mostly) up to you. We all have our battle scars and that shapes our personalities.
The pressure can make people into diamonds(they overcome their struggles and come out stronger) or turn them into dust (succumb to depression, turn into drug addicts etc).
Your (former) surroundings will always be an influence, but it cannot be an excuse for behavior since your still in control of your actions.