RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

Alright everyone, here is the low down on ranking as it relates between Jedi and Clergy. For those of you whom I unknowingly missinformed, I deeply apologize.

Jedi Master (if Clergy then is also Bishop)
Sr. Jedi Knight (If also Clergy then is Msgr.)
Jedi Knight (If clergy then Reverend)
Jedi Knight Apprentice (If Clergy then Reverend)
Jedi Knight Initiate (If Clergy then Reverend)


Once again, If I have informed you otherwise please accept my apologies. MTFBWY

If I may express my thoughts and feelings on this matter. I object to these separate ranks for clergy on the fact that it makes them seem possibly above or atleast outside of any other Jedi. Being clergy is a choice made by those who wish to be able to do ceremonies, I personally think every Jedi should also be clergy, but thats just my personal opinion. Being clergy though, should not give special titles, or added benefits to being a Jedi in anyway, by creating separate ranking structures you automatically separte those who are clergy from those who are not, and in a way undermine the ranking system the members have already set up. Even with the title of this post, it is placeing the two (Jedi and Clergy) into separate categories, which should not be done.

Secondly if the members still wish there to be a separte ranking system for Clergy personel there should be one developed that does not use titles or structure from another religion. If I were looking at this from the outside in, by seeing titles already in use by another religion, I would automatically think it is an extention of that religion or somehow affiliated with it. Unless it is a term used by many different religions already.

Just my thoughts, but I'd like to see others thoughts on this as well, those who feel compelled to say something, please do.

DK

agreed, our order being in essence a religious body, from the moment one takes the oath we represent the Order. If one does not feel comfortable preforming the higher duties of clergy then so be it. But there is the bear miminuim if called upon that every member must be ready to preform, that is I believe, emergency baptisms, and death bed confessions / absolutions, have to check with Br John on the last one. As far as titles, well again we sould be unique. The Jedi titles work fine, but hey that's just me.
Lenny
Knight of Jediism

I believe the title of the post, \"Jedi Vs. Clergy\", is misleading. Jedi and Clergy would be better suited. I agree with Dhagon, the titles given tend to give off a \"Catholic\" feel to them. The definitions of our ranks first posted for us were as follows (taken directly from one of Bishop Whiteman's post);

Master- This rank is achieved when a Sr. Knight completes the training of his apprentice who then becomes a full knight and takes an apprentice of their own. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience.)

Sr. Knight- This rank is bestowed upon those knights who take an apprentice. The taking of an apprentice is an added responsibility far beyond those of a regular Jedi knight and as such this rank carries the same Autonomy as a Master. This rank holds even after the Sr. Knights first apprentice graduates. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Jedi Knight - This Rank is bestowed upon those who have completed the training of a Master or Sr. Knight in full. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Knight apprentice- This rank is bestowed upon those who are currently in training under a Master or Sr. Knight

Knight Initiate - This rank is bestowed upon those who become members of this church by filling out the registration form and taking the oath.

Using these definitions is what caused me to lable myself as a Sr. Knight by mistake because my clergy certificate states I am a \"Knight of Jediism\" and I now have an apprentice. By the definionof a Sr. Knight, it fits. Now, that being said, why aren't we using these as our titles by themselves? They are generic to Jediism. Could not Masters that are clergy still be called Master instead of Bishop? All ordained clegy persons could be called Rev. Just as apprentices call the Master, Sr. Knight, or Knight that trains them \"Master\" as a sign of respect, is being an ordained clergy person and being referred to as just Rev. any less respectful while performing the task and duties assigned to clergy? I understand Br John is the Sr. Pastor of our temple, so what is wrong with addressing him as Rev. John Phelan or addressing Bishop Whiteman as Rev. Whiteman as in the past? Could we not add a page to the Main Menu that lists the official position within the Order that those individuals hold as far a church function goes, i.e. Rev. Tom Whiteman, Bishop and so on? I understand the need for rank structure all too well given my military background, but after much thought and Dhagon expressing his concern, I ask why did we choose to use the terms we did for the clergy over a Jedi specific title?
Also, our use of \"screen names\" is a problem in and of it's self, so to speak. If you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.
None of this was said to offend anyone. Just thoughts and questions that were running through one person's mind.

Being Clergy does not give any added benefits to being a Jedi. It is a personal Choice for each person whether or not they wish to be a member of the Clergy or carry that responsibility. With each growth in rank as a Jedi comes growth for those who are clergy as well. Clergy are niether above nor outside of Jedi. They just serve in a different manner. Those who are clergy should indeed be distinguished differently than those who are not. Not only so that we can tell who is and who is not clergy, but also to show respect to those who serve in that capacity.

Not all Jedi are Clergy. Not all Jedi want to be clergy.


Insofar as the titles currently used they are used in many religions actually. Catholics and most protestants of course. Also, scientology uses a loose form of this, as does The Church of Latter day Saints, although the mormons have a slightly different name for lower clergy. but Bishop is used by the Mormons as is.
I don't see any reason why this would not be changeable. I do see the greatest advantage of the current system, however, in that the titles are well known throughout the world and so lend themselves to recognition with little or no explanation.
As far as seeing the Jedi as affiliated with catholicism or any other organization I don't really see that as realistic.

Also the titles are in direct relation to jediism itself. As an example My full consecration is that of Bishop of Jediism. so they are in fact dealing directly with Jediism.

So that poses the next obvious question; Dhagon, what do you think the titles should be instead of the current clergy titles, and why?

Being Clergy does not give any added benefits to being a Jedi. It is a personal Choice for each person whether or not they wish to be a member of the Clergy or carry that responsibility. With each growth in rank as a Jedi comes growth for those who are clergy as well. Clergy are niether above nor outside of Jedi. They just serve in a different manner. Those who are clergy should indeed be distinguished differently than those who are not. Not only so that we can tell who is and who is not clergy, but also to show respect to those who serve in that capacity.

Not all Jedi are Clergy. Not all Jedi want to be clergy.


Insofar as the titles currently used they are used in many religions actually. Catholics and most protestants of course. Also, scientology uses a loose form of this, as does The Church of Latter day Saints, although the mormons have a slightly different name for lower clergy. but Bishop is used by the Mormons as is.
I don't see any reason why this would not be changeable. I do see the greatest advantage of the current system, however, in that the titles are well known throughout the world and so lend themselves to recognition with little or no explanation.
As far as seeing the Jedi as affiliated with catholicism or any other organization I don't really see that as realistic.

Also the titles are in direct relation to jediism itself. As an example My full consecration is that of Bishop of Jediism. so they are in fact dealing directly with Jediism.

So that poses the next obvious question; Dhagon, what do you think the titles should be instead of the current clergy titles, and why?

Rev. Justice wrote:

I believe the title of the post, \"Jedi Vs. Clergy\", is misleading. Jedi and Clergy would be better suited. I agree with Dhagon, the titles given tend to give off a \"Catholic\" feel to them. The definitions of our ranks first posted for us were as follows (taken directly from one of Bishop Whiteman's post);

Master- This rank is achieved when a Sr. Knight completes the training of his apprentice who then becomes a full knight and takes an apprentice of their own. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience.)

Sr. Knight- This rank is bestowed upon those knights who take an apprentice. The taking of an apprentice is an added responsibility far beyond those of a regular Jedi knight and as such this rank carries the same Autonomy as a Master. This rank holds even after the Sr. Knights first apprentice graduates. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Jedi Knight - This Rank is bestowed upon those who have completed the training of a Master or Sr. Knight in full. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Knight apprentice- This rank is bestowed upon those who are currently in training under a Master or Sr. Knight

Knight Initiate - This rank is bestowed upon those who become members of this church by filling out the registration form and taking the oath.

Using these definitions is what caused me to lable myself as a Sr. Knight by mistake because my clergy certificate states I am a \"Knight of Jediism\" and I now have an apprentice. By the definionof a Sr. Knight, it fits. Now, that being said, why aren't we using these as our titles by themselves? They are generic to Jediism. Could not Masters that are clergy still be called Master instead of Bishop? All ordained clegy persons could be called Rev. Just as apprentices call the Master, Sr. Knight, or Knight that trains them \"Master\" as a sign of respect, is being an ordained clergy person and being referred to as just Rev. any less respectful while performing the task and duties assigned to clergy? I understand Br John is the Sr. Pastor of our temple, so what is wrong with addressing him as Rev. John Phelan or addressing Bishop Whiteman as Rev. Whiteman as in the past? Could we not add a page to the Main Menu that lists the official position within the Order that those individuals hold as far a church function goes, i.e. Rev. Tom Whiteman, Bishop and so on? I understand the need for rank structure all too well given my military background, but after much thought and Dhagon expressing his concern, I ask why did we choose to use the terms we did for the clergy over a Jedi specific title?
Also, our use of \"screen names\" is a problem in and of it's self, so to speak. If you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.
None of this was said to offend anyone. Just thoughts and questions that were running through one person's mind.

That will actually be addressed when we get the full list up and running. It will show who is what, etc... and will be fully browseable.

In so far as the title's themselves go i will say again, Not all Jedi are Clergy. no they must be disticintive from one another. and also, the ranking committee was not concerned with clergy ranking but with jedi Ranking, that is why they were never discussed. The ranking committee does not have any power with regard to clergy ranking and so forth. It is merely to handle the workings of Jedi ranking alone. and as they must be seperate due to the fact that all Jedi are not clergy, so is the ranking committee in discernment with regard to clergy rank.

Folks, if you see a problem or take issue with something, please don't merely express that concern, please offer solutions as well. In this matter, it is simply a fact that we must accept that Jedi and Clergy are not the same. Some are one, some are Both, and because of that they must be held in seperate distinctions. but please offer what you would consider as Jedi Clergy titles.

I was asked earlier what I thought about this topic and after reading the thread I believe that the currently system can be used to identify clergy as well. Clergy in other religions are the teachers, pasters, and guids of their religion. It would seem that the Mater and Sr. knight are those positions. They are the ones that take on apprentices and guid the flock. A inititiate, and apprentice are the learners. They are new to the order and do not yet know all that is happening. A Jedi Knight is simply someone who has completed their personal training. If they do not what to be clergy and take on apprentices then thats as high as one needs to go. Even in the star wars fiction only a very few Jedi where Masters, and not every Jedi has an apprentice all the time. My suggestion is simply to make the last two ranks, Sr. knight and Master the ranks of the clergy.

aximili007 wrote:

I was asked earlier what I thought about this topic and after reading the thread I believe that the currently system can be used to identify clergy as well. Clergy in other religions are the teachers, pasters, and guids of their religion. It would seem that the Mater and Sr. knight are those positions. They are the ones that take on apprentices and guid the flock. A inititiate, and apprentice are the learners. They are new to the order and do not yet know all that is happening. A Jedi Knight is simply someone who has completed their personal training. If they do not what to be clergy and take on apprentices then thats as high as one needs to go. Even in the star wars fiction only a very few Jedi where Masters, and not every Jedi has an apprentice all the time. My suggestion is simply to make the last two ranks, Sr. knight and Master the ranks of the clergy.

My apologies, but that would be inappropriate as not all Jedi are Clergy and not all Jedi want to be.

I don't believe there needs to be a separate rank to go with being a clergy person. Members of the Clergy are merely offering themselves to serve the role of religious leader of ceremonies and such, which is simply an added role to the one already assumed by the title they have.The simple O.C.P. at the end of someones signature or what not fills that void fine. Or even Rev. as has been used here for a while is widely used among religions, which is also fine to point out the fact that someone is of the clergy. On the other hand by basing what clergy rank you are with what Jedi rank you are, is intertwining them as well. I do ask, why do those who choose to serve in a Clergy capacity deserve more respect than those who do not? They are Jedi just the same, they just choose to offer more of their time and effort, which is admirable yes, but not necessarily deserving of more respect than any other Jedi. Do I have other names that could be used, no, simply because I don't believe it is necesary. Do note Br. Tom, I mean no offense by any of this discussion, so I hope you are not taking it that way, I'm just expressing my views and beliefs.

DK

I do not take offense, or I would have made that known. However, I also believe that any member of the Clergy are due respect to them in that distinction as well as whatever distinction they are as a Jedi. It is not a \"better\" thing but as you said a \"more\" thing. No one is any better than anyone else, but i do believe that those who offer more of thier time and talents deserve to be recognized for it, as is in the military (of which you are a part, yes?)

Now, with regard to how they are known, the varying ranks of Clergy all come with thier own distinct responsibilites. Yes they are religious leaders and counselors, but each level (as in the military) as its own unique responsibilities.

Regarding basing rank on Jedi Level, they are not one in the same. However, Do you not agree that a person who is clergy and can ordain new clergy (A bishop) should have an advanced knowledge of Jediism and how it relates to other religions and have shown themselves of the ability to make these discernments soundly? Like wise, do you not agree that anyone should be able to be a minister?

Now, my personal thoughts have not truly been expressed here.
\"If it isn't broke, don't fix it.\"
How is this broken?

Also, if the issue is that it was borrowed from other religions then i would ask, what about our doctrine itself. all of our teachings and values are a modern organization of very ancient ideals, Borrowed from many ancient religions. Why would this be any different?

It's not so much broken, as just being questioned is all. You did point out a very important and generally unknown fact, the ranking commitee only handled the Jedi rankings, not the clergy.
I used the example of Catholics because it is the most commonly known to use such titles and most widely seen by people on TV, movies, and whatnot.
I pointed this out in my prior post that could serve to help identify our clergy members;
\"...if you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.\"

I see nothing wrong with the names of the ranks. It makes it feel more like the church that we are instead of just an organization.

Rev. Justice wrote:

It's not so much broken, as just being questioned is all. You did point out a very important and generally unknown fact, the ranking commitee only handled the Jedi rankings, not the clergy.
I used the example of Catholics because it is the most commonly known to use such titles and most widely seen by people on TV, movies, and whatnot.
I pointed this out in my prior post that could serve to help identify our clergy members;
\"...if you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.\"

I understand this, and it is up to each member what thier screenname is. I leave mine as is for familiarity and also when you change it you lose all of your saved PM's and I want to keep them all. I do not think it would be prudent to force anyone to change thier screen name. Also, as i mentions before, this would be addressed by the completed and full member database. All members will (once it is up) be able to search the list and see who is what and so forth. so this will then be Moot.

What I think is going on here is a general misunderstanding of what Bishop Whiteman is trying to say. These designations (the term I prefer over rank) are necessary. As Bishop Whiteman has already pointed out, those who attain the level of Jedi Master are not necessarily members of the Clergy. So, if you did not have the separate ranks for Jedi and Clergy then it would get very confusing indeed. Also, having the separate Clergy designation recognizes the extra time and involvement someone has given to this Temple. This does not make someone \"better\" but, just as someone who has put more time in school deserves extra titles, so too, do these men and women deserve extra recognition.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I don't believe there needs to be a separate rank to go with being a clergy person. Members of the Clergy are merely offering themselves to serve the role of religious leader of ceremonies and such, which is simply an added role to the one already assumed by the title they have.The simple O.C.P. at the end of someones signature or what not fills that void fine. Or even Rev. as has been used here for a while is widely used among religions, which is also fine to point out the fact that someone is of the clergy. On the other hand by basing what clergy rank you are with what Jedi rank you are, is intertwining them as well. I do ask, why do those who choose to serve in a Clergy capacity deserve more respect than those who do not? They are Jedi just the same, they just choose to offer more of their time and effort, which is admirable yes, but not necessarily deserving of more respect than any other Jedi. Do I have other names that could be used, no, simply because I don't believe it is necesary. Do note Br. Tom, I mean no offense by any of this discussion, so I hope you are not taking it that way, I'm just expressing my views and beliefs.

DK

Clergy covers a lot of territory. There are five possible clergy orders with different powers and privilege's.

Commission - this is given to a member for a special one time event like conducting the marriage of a friend or for a limited mission.

License - the powers of a Deacon but not ordained and this can be revoked.

Deacon - Holy Orders and cannot be revoked.

Priest - Holy Orders and cannot be revoked. A Priest(ess) may take a confession under the seal recognized by law and act as a spiritual
counselor among other things.

Bishop - The fullness of holy orders and the only clergy who can Ordain! Irrevocable.

So a minister has no power to license or ordain another minister.

Is this starting to make sense?

Br. John

The various clergy titles used are very familiar to me. I mean I was an ordained deacon aspiring to become a priest. (A few titles that are missing however are Cardinal and Pope). I can (especially with my turbulant relationship with the Church) relate to there being a bitter taste in peoples mouths when hearing these titles. The picture very often often presnted when talking about Bishops.... are pompos, very lordly, rich, above the ordinary persons. Maybe this is not true for all but many do feel this way. Or maybe there are other pictures which are generated by these titles. The thing is what generally seems to be forgotten is, that these titles are not markers to distinguish but are gifts or responsabilities. The title is not ment to glorify the person carrying it but the person is supposed to use this gift to help others. If there is any respect it should be what the title stands for (values). The person can be admired for doing a paricular work but not more than any other person with equal integrity. Unfortunately only too often in history have people with this ranking abused their position for power. Why should these titles not be used, when I consider that we will be probably dealing with a lot of non Jedi. These are titles who people can relate to, associate with. It is time then that we with these titles made a difference. What I really appreciate about TOTJO is that really everyone has the chance to become a minister. This is definitely not the case in the Roman Catholic Church.

Look, if this is what everyone wants, fine, I was just expressing my concerns and beliefs. However, I will not be calling anyone Bishop, Monsigner (sp), Rabbi or anything else for that matter. The whole purpose originally though of for using these ranks was for teaching purposes, and it already has seemed to go beyond that. In my eyes we are all on equal ground, regardless of how much time we put into this place. Not all of us have the same amount of time to put into it, if I could put in more I would, but I would not expect any extra recognition for it.

Chapter 7 of the Tao Te Ching (First book of Jediism) tells us:
Heaven and Earth last forever.
WHy do heaven and Earth last forever?
They are unborn,
So ever living.
The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead.
He is detached, thus at one with all.
Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment.

Meaning by not seeking recognition for action, doing it selflessly you become more fulfilled.

In addition, Chapter 19 says:
Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.
Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And men will rediscover filial piety and love.
Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,
And badits and thieves will disappear.
These three are outward forms alone; they are not sufficient in themnselves.
It is more important
To see the simplicity,
To realize one's true nature,
To cast off selfishness
And temper desire.

Meaning by casting away things that make us seem better than others in one way or another, people will stop looking to you to make their lives better, and focus on making thier lives better on their own.

Yes, I am in the military, and yes we use ranks, but they are not so much for a measure of knowledge or experience, but more for authority reasons than anything else. Yes I hold rank an put lots of time into defending our country, but I do not expect anyone here to call me Sargeant, nor do I expect special recognition. When I speak about my military experience, it is to express things that have happened that I learned from, to hopefully help others learn from as well, or to tell a funny story.

DK