Deconstructing Anxiety and Constructing Identity

This is specifically for some dear friends of mine who are going through a rough time at the moment but its also anyone who is having a tough time . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwGUk6xEi3I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MiRrRf0eTs

Just going to chill here until enough people comment on the (video?) so I can infer what the content is :dry:

I can give you my take on it James, warning labels and all....

The first one just seems to talk about how our brain can process our footprint through time, and I presume that how that manifests as anxiety is a combination of the amount of variability in that footprint, and the manner in which we've been bought up to understand the possible range of behaviors. He seems to associate the concept of 'flow' to being detached from those processes, and instead being focused in the present moment - or in other words I'd guess, distracted by the present moment (ie Taoism) BUT in such a way to have an altered perception to the extent that perception is enriching, rather then seeing everything as wrong (ie Buddhism).

The second vid talks about how people aspire and dream to the extent that it destroys ones own potential, and how instead we need to define ourselves by action. Then there is some monologue about what happens with the former. Seems to attack modernity for allowing it, but perhaps is just trying to highlite its power to enable it and indeed require it to some extent. Ask's his buddy how he might deal with "moments that threaten to dissolve your identity" ie "stuff which threatens to dissolve the ego". They talk about some concept of a mirror to be real and go off on some tangent about higher states of existential anxiety and how cognitive framing can be using language to serve your own reality, a symbolic reality - which I assume is akin to above where I said perception is altered 'constructively', he uses the words nourishes, and says its a better approach to mental health. He then points out sometimes if you cannot control your thoughts, then change your actions (in the same way) instead.

A lot of this seems to concern how one occupies their mind and where they put their thoughts, and what kinds of things we can get involved in to influence our thoughts one way or another. Being involved in careers and activities that nourish our confidence in life at the present can influence more positive and productive frames of mentality, whereas, more mundane jobs and boredom can easily breed a lot of empty room for negative and fearful frames of mentality.

The thing is, we can get stuck in a catch 22, if we're already in a negative frame but want to change our active way of life to something more proactive. If we're fearful or just regularly feeling discouraged or unmotivated to make a change, then we won't (or we try and at the first sign(s) of anything that hints at our negative frame of mind, we bail on it because our frame of mind tells us that it's just no good for [insert reasons here]). I've had this happen to me on various occasions but mostly on smaller scales.

I've had to gradually work my way up to higher levels of physical and mental activity, and still have a long ways to go, but my move to the UK and this new job with all the changes I'm faced with is taking me quite a long way toward that, and in the midst of it, I regularly find a lot of obstacles where I would like to do something but I just don't have the confidence or courage to put myself out there just yet to do it, I will have to work up to it gradually, to get ME to trust MYSELF that I can handle it.

The guy in the videos is like a Californian Matthew McConaughey... "Alright alright alright..."

:silly:

What this seems to build to is the recognition that we are not our thoughts and emotions, rather we are the experiencer / listener of the thoughts and emotions that stream through our minds. We are not the "monkey mind", we are the awareness that can choose to let the "monkey mind" take over (bad idea) or to train them to pipe down (better idea). This idea is ultimately inaccurate (after all it, itself, is just another thought, just another mental object) - as Krishnamurti argues, the split of experience and experiencer is artificial and arbitrary. BUT it may be a necessary stepping stone to ultimately reach a point of integration.

One may have to deconstruct oneself before we can be rebuilt. That process is going to be painful. Madness, distress, or emotional instability may occur - St John of the Cross didn't call it 'The Dark Night of the Soul' without good reason. The good news is that such distress can be the catalyst required to undertake this work. Distress is not a necessary prerequisite but it can be a powerful tool to rebuild an identity less myopic than the one we have imprinted on us, by society, and that we habitually imprint on ourselves.

The extra difficulty comes when we have pursued knowledge, wisdom and learning and yet we still fail. We know we are capable of more and yet we are still incapable. Feelings of such abject helplessness in the face of what we know to be true is the "monkey mind" going all-in (to use poker terminology). Our consciousness has the winning hand, we just need the confidence to play it . . .

To use terminology closer to home, The Force is with us, we need only to call on it.

I see what you mean Loudzoo

People develop an obsession with wanting to become—become free from fear and boredom ; become a more interesting person; become relaxed; become fulfilled; become happy. They get stuck in this desperation and then stay the same , driving them up the wall , lonelyness and despair hits , its daunting.
This is where the importance of just Being came into play for me , when i started noticing i got stuck , i started to make a 180 degree turn everytime i faced something i did not like , well that did not work out either so i started digging further and i noticed how living in the Now changed everything , because really , what ever thoughts you have , you have them Now

Acting mindfully and being aware of the now is beginning to change everything for me.
Eckhart Tolle says , “…the past gives you an identity and the future holds the promise of salvation, of fulfillment in whatever form. Both are illusions.”
When you go down this path of the Force you very soon discover , you dont know who you are , you are not who you say you are , your are not who you are supposed to be. Like you said Loudzoo we need to tap into the Force as it is always there for us and waiting ...
In the meantime , i watched the video's and i think there are a few things that we can start doing without any harm to our progress
Acceptance of who you are
Learning to foster greater acceptance for your thoughts and feelings, other people, events beyond your control, and the beliefs you hold . By doing so you can break away from your preoccupation with fear and focus upon your recovery.
Commitment
Commit yourself to change , focus upon moving toward the things that really matter in your life.
Behavior
By becoming more mindfull i saw that my behaviour changed , learning that whatever issues and circumstances the thoughts that ruled my perception, could push me away from the things that i held dear , so i focussed on keeping my thoughts in check with what was dear to me . Meaning , we have a choice , this can be painfull choices , distress and conflict are part of life as much as happiness and bliss

And believe me , we all have a long way to go , it might seem that some have it more together than others , and there is the loud ones and the quiet once , there is no scale of suffering , there is no comparing of pain. we all have to deal with this , one hand reaching out the other being bitten , its all part of the greater good we are part of.
May the Force be with you in all of this

Obligatory reminder that anxiety disorders are serious mental issues and not just fleeting, everyday fears.

Obligatory reminder that anxiety disorders are serious mental issues and not just fleeting, everyday fears.

(Didn't see the videos so not sure if it comes up there) - As far as this thread goes, you're the first person to use the word disorder.

Suffering from anxiety = diagnosis

much like eating a salad = vegan.

Within and of your statement - You're not wrong, I'm just clarifying that one does not have to have something plucked from the DSM to have a right to life sucking / mental distress.

"feeling anxious" != having anxiety.

There is a difference in feeling slightly nervous or apprehensive or afraid of a thing and having a crippling reaction to a stimulus. I made this point because so often in the space of this "Temple", mental disorders are handwaved by positive thinking, or clever philosophy, or meditation suggestions, adding to the misunderstanding of mental illness. Knowing more than a handful of people here who suffer from one mental disorder or another, and personally suffering from a few myself, it pains me to see the community at large continue to willfully misunderstand the nature of mental illness and be careless with their words, suggestions, and attitudes in regards to those of us who fight our own minds daily.

I refuse to refrain from speaking my mind on this topic any and every time it comes up, and I will not be "clarified" in an effort to silence my opinion, one-up me, or get the last word in.

steamboat28 wrote: "feeling anxious" != having anxiety.

There is a difference in feeling slightly nervous or apprehensive or afraid of a thing and having a crippling reaction to a stimulus. I made this point because so often in the space of this "Temple", mental disorders are handwaved by positive thinking, or clever philosophy, or meditation suggestions, adding to the misunderstanding of mental illness. Knowing more than a handful of people here who suffer from one mental disorder or another, and personally suffering from a few myself, it pains me to see the community at large continue to willfully misunderstand the nature of mental illness and be careless with their words, suggestions, and attitudes in regards to those of us who fight our own minds daily.

I refuse to refrain from speaking my mind on this topic any and every time it comes up, and I will not be "clarified" in an effort to silence my opinion, one-up me, or get the last word in.

I agree with you Steam , its my opinion that if people are suffering from a disorder/mental illness they should find the proper help because we here at the Temple can do little more than give advice on meditation and such , we are not a mental hospital , nor are we equiped or even allowed as far as i know to treat people with those disorders , we can talk to the clergy and they can direct us to the proper authorities on councelling and psychological help. I have been yelled at and humiliated here because i put this forward to someone who i thought was in need of this help , that we could not help , its painfull , but all we can really do imo is give some tips , but obviously we always come short if someone is really disturbed.

The misconception about "disorders" is that people think they are a toggled feature, when actually, they are a spectrum.

This DOESN'T mean that those who are in the upper spectrum who qualify as having it considered a legit disorder get wistfully dismissed by the things we post here. This temple is not a replacement for clinical treatment, it is a supplement to it as well as to the wide range of general things that we all have to deal with in our personal lives. So Steam, I appreciate your reminder, but please try not to generalize the activity here with false intentions. I'd like to think we're all well aware of what is necessary for what part of what things we deal with. We've already been over this anyway and while I do feel that reminder in general was a great idea, I don't think it's necessary to put it in the form of statements of mistrust and mal-intention.

Can we keep it constructive please?

steamboat28 wrote: Obligatory reminder that anxiety disorders are serious mental issues and not just fleeting, everyday fears.

Absolutely my first thought (aka my first hope-that-this-will-be-remembered-in-the-thread) whenever these topics come up - thank you, Steam...

Anxiety (of the serious, anxiety-disorder variety) is one of those things that is very difficult to understand or imagine unless you have truly suffered from it. Which means that sensitivity is required from both perspectives. Whilst it is very painful and sometimes damaging to feel that our experiences are being misunderstood, ignored, or generally trodden all over, particularly when already feeling fragile - it is also difficult to be in the position of wanting to assist someone with a feeling or state of mind that you have little or no experience of. Of course, the balance of sensitivity generally needs to be weighted in favour of the more vulnerable of the two, but we should try to remember that, even where we find the specifics counter-productive or unwelcome, people are usually offering advice because they care, which is not something that I take for granted. Of course, if someone continues to offer harmful advice illustrating an ongoing refusal to listen and learn, maybe forget what I just said... :whistle:

I do know from experience how very unhelpful it can feel to hear those who haven't experienced a crippling anxiety themselves stating the belief that it is all linked to thought patterns that can be consciously controlled/changed, because it's really not anywhere near that simple. Sometimes there are no conscious concerns, or identifiable triggers - just a general sense of overarching panic that pops up one day out of nowhere and never goes away again, like being in fight-or-flight mode every minute of every day for weeks, months or years at a time. Even putting the chemical/biological argument aside, of course it's frustrating and perplexing to think about changing problematic thought patterns if your anxiety doesn't appear to be connected with any. Where do you start? What's even the point in trying to find somewhere to start?

But I also know that some of the sentiments expressed in the videos in the OP are aligned with some of my experiences - for instance, when the guy talks about 'flow' - immersing yourself in an activity that requires your attention to be fully in the Now - personally, I find that such things help me enormously both in the moment and then generally have a lingering positive effect. Whether that is because of the suspension of the construct of time with its past and future concerns, or because it brings a sense of unity with the surrounding environment (or both), it does hint at the negation of at least some element of background mental interference - in my anxiety anyway, if no-one else's! And with regards to the internal angst arising from matters of identity, we may never have consciously experienced anxiety relating to that and we may consciously feel very secure in our sense of who we are and what we are doing here, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that there may be entirely subconscious factors in play. Of course, when already struggling it can be incredibly difficult to persuade ourselves to open up the potential cans of worms presented by the things lurking in our subconsciousness, but when we feel able, mightn't it be worth a little investigation if it gives us some clarity, even if that clarity comes through confirmation that such things aren't a factor?

There will always be split opinions on the sort of advice offered in the videos and that is perfectly right and fair and the way it has to be considering the breadth and variety of experiences of both anxiety and suggested 'solutions' for it. But I will say that as someone struggling quite seriously with anxiety at the moment, whilst there were remarks made in the videos that I didn't necessarily agree with (the one about anxiety and depression not existing before the advent of social mobility comes to mind :pinch: ), I've found this thread and the reminders it offers extremely helpful over the last 24 hours, so though it may legitimately offer completely the wrong advice for some, for others it may offer something useful. I don't think anyone here is saying 'this is the only way to approach anxiety', and of course, as Marta highlights, if anyone is reading this thread and having a really rough time with something similar, professional help is absolutely something that should be considered.

Steam makes a very timely and relevant point (as is often the case). 'Self help' alone can rarely, if ever, make a dent on acute disorders but professional therapy, councilling and support can. None of these are a magic pill, they all require dedication and commitment from the patient. Clearly we're not able to offer such services here.

In those cases where people are having a 'tough time' (rather than suffering a serious mental illness) knowing there is the possibility of self-induced respite can be anything from comforting, to infuriating, to more debilitating.

What's really important is that we're able to talk about mental health in an open, honest way. These issues have too often been seen as taboo, or treated with a 'just-get-over-it' attitude, or 'just-learn-to-meditate' attitude.

If someone has a serious, non-mental health related, disease they go to hospital and hopefully get effective treatment. They are hopefully never told to just get over it. The stigma around seeking professional help for mental illness needs to lift.

These videos are the equivalent of treating a small cut with an anti-bacterial ointment and a plaster. It is an effective treatment for a minor injury and can prevent potentially serious complications. On the other hand, a severed artery needs immediate professional help.

These videos are the equivalent of treating a small cut with an anti-bacterial ointment and a plaster. It is an effective treatment for a minor injury and can prevent potentially serious complications. On the other hand, a severed artery needs immediate professional help.

For example, right now I'm going to close this window, leave my office, make a nice cup of coffee, come back to my office, and work on a spreadsheet for a while.

I'm going to use to the tools and techniques I have available to me such as focusing on a routine task I enjoy, then occupying my mind with a project in order to avoid undue distress about an event I can't realistically do anything about *


*I assume this is what is meant by the videos - methods of dealing with anxiety within the neurotypical range for a usually executive-functiony human.**



Not that I've ever been accused of being one of those, but I have a flipbook with things like
"Smiling and making eye contact: Yes
Cutting someone's eyes out with a fountain pen: No"
&
"Washing each day: Yes
Living in your own filth, not paying bills and waiting to die: No"

- so I should be able to guestimate what they mean by normal....



I have looked at the word "anxiety" so many times this morning it's starting to do that thing where you can't tell if it looks right. I'm sure there is a word for that.

Ooh, sparkley!

How do people know who has or has not experienced severe anxiety though..... perhaps judging someone for the value of their contribution, instead of the intention in contributing, can be a sign of anxiety itself. While identifying patterns of behaviour which might be connected to anxiety itself could maybe be a way to buffer its impacts my observation is only meant to contemplate and not try to throttle participation. One of the annoying things about stress is its habit to drive its own growth, like a virus of cognition, and in the same way I tend to personally view anxiety as the same thing but occurring more within the realm of the subconscious, a virus of feeling, crossing into my definition of emotion and indeed eventually becoming a passion, generally to escape or surrender, from my experience. So if its manifesting as behaviour then perhaps little things can help break down that overspeed feedback loop driving the negative experience at its source. But we obviously tend to have less control of that subconscious domain, and it has a 'lot' of power to control many if not all our systems. So while to me working with the subconscious requires conscious effort and commitment, it unfortunately does not necessarily bring immediate results. And if ones frame of mind is particularly negative, then any unrewarded effort is a negative result! So sometimes these mechanisms can not only be lacking positive reward but also appear so minor that they seem incidental and trivial. That can be very frustrating under ideal conditions, and annoying as buggery under less then ideal. As others have said here at the Temple most people will probably only be able to talk about that lower level, because if more serious or immediate intervention is required then a professional should really be sought.

In my experience with people in my own family, there has been two sides to anxiety and the stigma of mental illness.

On the one hand, my step-sister has severe anxiety and it isn't fair to tell her to just "get over it" or "meditate on it". She is receiving professional counseling and it helps, but she still has uncontrollable anxiety at times. I understand this better now and try to be accommodating. I realize that the scope of her illness is well outside the range that I could possibly assist her with.

On the other hand, I have heard her and others respond to people trying to help with "you don't understand" or "you'll never know what I'm feeling". Rather than appreciating the good intentions of people or helping us to understand her anxiety, she shuts people down by dismissing them as uneducated or condescending. I have heard her tell my brother that "until you have anxiety like I do, you have no right to judge me or tell me how to behave." He was just trying to ask how he could be more helpful.

The only personal experience I can compare it to is having cancer. It is easy for me to say "you don't get what it's like" or "you'll never understand", but that doesn't help my wife better take care of me when I need help. It just pushes her away. I have learned to be patient and understand that while she may not know what I am going through physically and mentally, she still just wants to make it all better for me. I have to be a partner in that and tell her what I need or how she can help, even if it means telling her there is nothing she can do.

I think the stigma of mental illness, in her case anyway, would be a lot less within the family if she was open and genuine about it with us rather than treating everyone like a potential enemy. We have all spoken to her psychologist in our own sessions in order to be better able to help her cope, but she doesn't acknowledge or appreciate it. It makes it hard for me to be compassionate when she assumes I am belittling her.

I'm just going to use the quote as an example, I've never met Senan's sister, (as far as I know) and make no implication as to her personal situation (happy with the disclaimer? okay, carrying on)

On the other hand, I have heard her and others respond to people trying to help with "you don't understand" or "you'll never know what I'm feeling"

It's entirely possible she doesn't either.

Considering and understanding how your issues, whatever the hell they are and by any other words, affect you is still an important part of dealing with them, no matter how scary they may seem - and yes, I know that while "the thing" is happening you might not be able to rationally consider them, but perhaps later when you're eating ice cream and watching Breaking bad you can take a moment to go through the events, see what your (oh god) triggers are, and how you managed them.

Next time, you still won't be able to deal with them, I get that. Sitting around being mindful and self aware is a cure* to F-all (except having too much time), but if you can understand how you are and how you react in your world you might be able to reduce your anxiety about your anxiety (maybe not your anxiety about your anxiety about your anxiety though)


No this doesn't apply to everyone and everything, yes you should take your meds if they work for you (or do yoga if that works for you, whatever).

Be excellent to each other, etc etc.

Adder wrote: He then points out sometimes if you cannot control your thoughts, then change your actions (in the same way) instead.

How can physical action be more powerful than thoughts if physical action is submissive to the environment or condition of the body? What limits our thoughts so much that our actions are more powerful? (according to the person in the video)

Adder wrote: The first one just seems to talk about how our brain can process our footprint through time, and I presume that how that manifests as anxiety is a combination of the amount of variability in that footprint, and the manner in which we've been bought up to understand the possible range of behaviors.

In English there is a distinction between past, present and future unlike in some languages such as Mandarin. One effect of this is to make Mandarin speakers more likely to save money for the future, because there is no mental distinction between then and now unlike for English speakers.

Codex wrote:

Adder wrote: He then points out sometimes if you cannot control your thoughts, then change your actions (in the same way) instead.

How can physical action be more powerful than thoughts if physical action is submissive to the environment or condition of the body? What limits our thoughts so much that our actions are more powerful? (according to the person in the video)

I dunno if he asserts that, but as they say a change is as good as a holiday (sometimes). I think the discussion is about feeling and not outcomes. So if rumination were viewed as abstractions of feelings, then those abstractions could perhaps exist at various levels of self authorship and control to the extent of where we might assign our 'seat' within that stream might exist as a function of freedom (or available power). Abstraction can shape focus in various ways, even twist it up into knots - restricting the minds ability to focus (& unfocus or shift focus) as effectively, and create a sensation of being trapped with the resultant emergence of fear, anxiety, or anger etc. But I tend to view that as being negative emotions, because they emerge from competing abstractions (either among themselves as concepts/decisions or shifting priorities down from conscious ideation to subconscious instinct). Action then, can give immediate validation as a foundation for confidence going forward, ie simpler. Plus the source of the feelings (the subconscious processes) are of body more then abstraction so I imagine they respond more directly. In other words, sometimes doing is more tangible and rewarding then thinking. Not to mention the body seems made to move, and likely so to does the mind IMO.