If we had to change...

Let us pretend that the Disney people come knocking on our door about our use of the term Jedi. Let us say that we are issued a cease and desist order and, for the sake of arguement, that Br. John and the Council agree without arguement.

So, now we have to call ourselves and what we do something else.

What do you feel that would change? What would those changes mean?

Beyond the change in the website header and URL, it would mean very little to me. People might have a harder time finding us, but we shouldn't be about racking up huge membership numbers anyway.

I admire the creativity of George Lucas and the Star Wars movies are entertaining to me, but they do not encompass all there is to be learned and experienced along my path. Terms like "Jedi" and "Force" are apt for describing what we do here, but they are surely not the only words that could convey the meaning.

I will always look to the source material that inspired Lucas along with the thousands of other sources of wisdom available to me and shared with me by teachers here. The path will be the same regardless of what I choose to call it.

Per Wikipedia:

The word "jedi" is said to have been adapted by George Lucas from Japanese 時代劇 (jidaigeki) (meaning "period drama" motion pictures about samurai),[2] or perhaps inspired by the words Jed (King) and Jeddak (Emperor) in the Barsoom series by Edgar Rice Burroughs, a series that Lucas considered adapting to film.[3][4]

I personally would lean towards something rooted in history like this, and 'myth' as well. I think there's a plethora of options, but I doubt it's a road we'll ever have to cross in my own opinion. Said discussion I feel would be large, and very hard to reach a consensus on, which is another reason I hope it doesn't come to pass.

I was thinking the exact same thing today Cabur. My thoughts on it were that I'm very glad that Lucas didn't name "The Force" using a less generic noun, like Akasha, or something. Presumably they can't copyright the word 'Force'!

If we were forced to drop the word 'Jedi' I reckon we could re-name the website along the lines of 'Temple of the Order of The Force'. Instead of calling ourselves Jedi we could be Force Templars, perhaps.

In any case, I wouldn't mind too much. New names would take a bit of getting used to but it might even be beneficial in some ways. It might just distance ourselves enough from the movies such that we're not mistaken for roleplayers, or people trying to develop 'supernatural' powers!

I like to think positively, I do not think we will be forced to change our name. It's not like we're of any threat to Disney, or scamming them out of profit. If anything, we're drawing them more publicity!

That being said, if we were forced to change our names, it would be a huge change. Our name, doctrine and website would all have to undergo changes which would be precarious in the short term. However I am certain the Force would provide and that in the long term, it would not do us harm.

The thought that crosses my mind is that being a "Jedi" is no longer a thing of fiction. It is now regarded by many as a very real religion, philosophy or way of life. Presuming that a defence were to be mounted about the changing of our name, surely that would come into play?

Wether we change or not though, my loyalty lies with this Temple; no matter what tag it has on it. I can say now confidently that I am a Jedi, and no change of name will ever stop me being one.

Why is there such attachment to these terms, Force and Jedi? Why do we allow them to define us and why do we fight so hard to keep them? If this is in question, as it seems to be just based on recent conversations here, why not be proactive and enact change now? I saw somewhere that someone at the temple had questioned our legal integrity over this issue simply because the use of the terms were in question. Why put ourselves through this? If we truly hold no attachement to the movies to define our spirituality what does a name even mean? After all we all know what attachment leads to, right?

People will probably use whatever speaks the most to them, if not for the reason it is the most effective (unless of course the label is nothing more then a label). If something fictional represents that quite closely then its a powerful tool I guess to include imagination more freely without feeling a bit heretical. Though how much freedom is too much freedom is something I'll have to chew on...

.. but I doubt too many will stop practicing if the name changes. I was doing this for well over 20 years before I thought of using the label to help refine my path more succinctly.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Why is there such attachment to these terms, Force and Jedi? Why do we allow them to define us and why do we fight so hard to keep them? If this is in question, as it seems to be just based on recent conversations here, why not be proactive and enact change now? I saw somewhere that someone at the temple had questioned our legal integrity over this issue simply because the use of the terms were in question. Why put ourselves through this? If we truly hold no attachement to the movies to define our spirituality what does a name even mean? After all we all know what attachment leads to, right?

Why do we use words at all, why not pictures, why not songs, why not touch to describe ourselves? The fact of the matter you can rid yourself of labels all you want but at some point you have to be able to communicate, and as others have said if they are looking for jediism and you call it oranges, how is anyone really going to know? At some point you must define it so if you do, do you define it by what most people are going to recognize and be able to read it, or write it in pig latin for only the heavily dedicated and curious who won't know what it is until its translated in the first place?

Tellahane wrote: Why do we use words at all, why not pictures, why not songs, why not touch to describe ourselves? The fact of the matter you can rid yourself of labels all you want but at some point you have to be able to communicate, and as others have said if they are looking for jediism and you call it oranges, how is anyone really going to know? At some point you must define it so if you do, do you define it by what most people are going to recognize and be able to read it, or write it in pig latin for only the heavily dedicated and curious who won't know what it is until its translated in the first place?

I don't recall saying anywhere to stop using language. :huh:
I'm saying we should not be attached to a name to define a spirituality, especially if the legality of using that name is in question. People will learn of this path the same way any other spirituality grows, through word of mouth and through example and even through the teachings. Are you limiting this spirituality to the internet and subsequent google searches? Are you saying we should be advertising or recruiting and the only way to gain membership is through association with an imaginary universes fictional lore? If you are, you are missing the point of the faith in the first place and have hopelessly entangled what this path truly stands for with the Star Wars movies. They are not the same thing and I would suggest you rethink your approach my friend.

Star Knights, maybe?

Why not simply change the spelling around if the time comes and we're forced to change it. Adding another d or an a before the I, wouldn't take much to fix it without something drastic such as changing it alltogether...

Never mind. I'm changing my vote to Shadows of Zenchi.

Cabur Senaar wrote: Let us pretend that the Disney people come knocking on our door about our use of the term Jedi. Let us say that we are issued a cease and desist order and, for the sake of arguement, that Br. John and the Council agree without arguement.

So, now we have to call ourselves and what we do something else.

What do you feel that would change? What would those changes mean?

Disney is a funny creature big n powerful yet most of the "Walt" words are just words and names. Labels and liknesses have been tried and for some reason it hasn't worked, aka Disney tries to sue everybody . Take it for face value. Deadmau5 won his suite and countered sued AND won. Labels are labels. Hypothetical s lead down roads that dont exist.

I don't mean to ask what new thing should we call ourselves, though I have my thoughts on that as well. (Order of Wayfarer Knights ftw!)

I mean what would change for the community, for each of us, if we were no longer legally able to use the words we do?

I think it would sting, but I think it might provide a profound growth oppurtunity.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: People will learn of this path the same way any other spirituality grows, through word of mouth and through example and even through the teachings. Are you limiting this spirituality to the internet and subsequent google searches? Are you saying we should be advertising or recruiting and the only way to gain membership is through association with an imaginary universes fictional lore? If you are, you are missing the point of the faith in the first place and have hopelessly entangled what this path truly stands for with the Star Wars movies. They are not the same thing and I would suggest you rethink your approach my friend.

I think you're taking the point too far here. The teachings of Jesus Christ produce "Christians". People who follow the teachings have become easy to identify and associate with their faith. Jediism produces "Jedi". It is simply a matter of convenience while communicating. It's easier to use terms we are already familiar with than try to define and then adopt new ones. We are not trying to actively recruit people, but at the same time we don't need to be camouflaging ourselves either.

I agree that changing the name would have little to no impact on the actual teachings and the faith, but it would make it difficult for people to associate the faith with those who follow it until the new label becomes as familiar as the term "Jedi".

And for what it's worth, this faith is entangled with the Star Wars mythology for many here and it would be unfair to simply cast that aside. There are students here whose first lessons in spirituality came from Obi-Wan and Yoda. While we strive to move beyond the fiction and seek out the original sources, we can still acknowledge that the fiction has played a vital role in making this Temple and the entire Jedi community what it is today.

I think it would scatter the community as a whole. The plethora of Jedi groups agree on very little, a name change would be possibly the hardest thing to get them to agree to, in my opinion. So I think each group would end up choosing whatever name they liked best and the groups would become as different in name as in teaching. That might not be horrible, honestly. I have no issues with the groups being different, but I know that the lack of cohesion is an issue for some. If we no longer shared the name then it wouldn't be a problem. Jedi wouldn't mean different things at different sites, each would have a different name for their unique meaning.

As a Temple we might get fewer people coming and asking if we practice telekinesis. Fewer discussions of "the dark side vs the light side." Fewer "Well Yoda said..." Less explaining the differences between the fictional Jedi and us. Fewer "Sith are bad people" threads.

I never thought I'd say this, but this isn't starting to sound like too bad an idea. :laugh:

Cabur Senaar wrote: (Order of Wayfarer Knights ftw!)

Haha, love the name!

Cabur Senaar wrote: I mean what would change for the community, for each of us, if we were no longer legally able to use the words we do?

I personally wouldn't feel any different internally.

I'd of course be saddened, as the myth and its trappings are a reason all of this came into being, but no company can force me to not embrace that on a personal or private level. I'd be worried about the future of the temple / people fracturing / leaving, as well.

But I'd keep chasing my own path, and pursing my apprenticeship.

I don't think it changes anything regarding beliefs or aspirations. The Star Wars Universe helps us by creating a sense of wonder and aspiration to be something greater based on visual, written, and auditory senses. The terms may change, but the stories, lessons, and values will not.

Language is a fluid thing. Stories are alive and always changing. Lessons, and the knowledge and wisdom contained in them will never change.

Another observation I've made (I'm very new here), is unlike most religions Jediism focuses on the values of the lessons, the progression to better oneself, and the dogmatic free support for all living things. We see the Jedi in the movies and read about them in books and we aspire to be like them. We see the balance they aim to create and feel that this balance is needed in a technologically advancing society. The way of the Jedi feels like a potential way of life, and that will never change.

I think Goken's point is well taken. Organization and finding each other gets tougher if we cannot agree on terms. And those bonds across the communiy are important. It provides a new avenue for silly ego battles. That will probably be pretty tiresome.

But, I'm not too worried. If anything happens, stay put and stick together. The names may change, but the project does not. And we can still study the example of Jedi regardless of any legal action.

And, again, the odds of us getting hassled seem unlikely.

Also, The Order of Wayfarer Knights is the best new name ever. Or, at least a close second to Shadows of Zenchi.

Yeah well we can still become Knights , Knights of whatever :silly: its the actions that deternime the label , the label could be Jedi or Nurse or Forceuser , you would still be Knight and Deacon of the Order Cabur