Nature of "the Force" (Light/Dark dicotomy)

At the beginning of the community there was a lot of struggle to try and reconcile this idea that "the Force" had both a light and dark side as outlined by the movies. Some came to a conclusion that these two were separate entities from one another, the same as God and Satan. Some looked towards the Yin-Yang symbolism to paint a picture of an all encompassing sentient or semi-sentient "force" which had two different internal energies you could draw from- one being the conscious to do good and the other to strive towards an almost primal stage.

Oddly enough, it was a look at the natural world that got some of the "old guard" considering whether or not there truly was a light and/or dark side to "the Force". After some internal searching, many of the "old guard" came to the conclusion that is neither light, dark or even various shades of grey. The Force simply exists, just as anything else does. They came to believe that these concepts of light and dark were facets of human society used to keep us in check and help everything operate more smoothly.

Today, we still have people that believe in the literal light and dark sides. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you can completely understand why you feel that way, and how it effects your life. Interestingly enough, how you believe on this can shape how you interact with "the Force".

So my challenge for this post, is for you to really look inside of yourself and ask "Well, where exactly do I stand on this subject? Why? And how does it effect my relationship with 'the Force' (if at all)?"

If you are willing to share your thoughts on it, I (and I'm sure others) would love to read it. But at the end of the day, this exercise is mostly for you. (I'll post my views at a later time, for now, I need food! lol)

Alllllyyy *affects, not effects.

And, as a member of the "New Guard" or somebody who joined the online community in 2005, I have this to say:

The Force is the connective tissue of our universe that allows for you and me to be able to talk and touch and communicate. The Force is, basically, the Tao that is so fondly described. It is the Universal Perspective (see my essays on this topic at ProjectJediBlog.com).

Now, with that out of the way, I'd like to show you this:

The tao symbol (google image searches all around) is represented as Light and Dark with the spots in the opposing halves.

What does this mean?

It means that Light and Dark are different and the same. The world runs on workable paradoxes.

the dots symbolize the "seed" of the other...light carries the seed of dark, dark carries the seed of light...both interconnected parts of the whole

Is that not what I said?

I see the nature of the Force as parasitic. Not in a Dark, Light, or sentient way. Still, I look at anything killing me as pretty bad.

There is spiritual energy, and there is life force energy.

It is because we have both we are alive.

Life force energy flows through and animates everything in this universe, spiritual energy gives it substance and existence.

When we die our life force energy goes back into the world, and our spiritual energy remains.

Having only one or the other isn't a living state.

So neither aspect is good or bad, both are necessary for life to exist.

I have it as a quite literal meaning, the Jedi path focuses on active connections and presence, a broader empowerment connecting to the environment and circumstance to wield greater knowledge of a situation to allow that focus to lead to wisdom.

Whilst the Sith path could focus on the unknown aspects of the self, looking into the darkness to understand more about yourself from places which are kept from you or where you do not journey. If you step outside yourself to get a better look at yourself as a path, then what you see might just be the redshift of your own existance - hence the red lightsabers LOL.

So for me there is no dichotomy, and the concept is an illusion created by the fictional world in the storyline. That is my opinion on your question Alethea, but I am still tempted by some concept of duality so its a WIP for sure!

Khaos wrote: I see the nature of the Force as parasitic. Not in a Dark, Light, or sentient way. Still, I look at anything killing me as pretty bad.

That was a bit cryptic, care to elaborate?

I'd like to throw in this idea, what if the dark side is the anti-force, not as absence of the force -it clearly isn't portrayed as that in the fiction/mythology. As a newcomer I still find it hard to see how the core depiction of the force in the films is irrelevant as some of you seem to claim. I'm not saying that it should be believed that Jedi in the fiction is the same as Jedi in real life (telekinesis etc) but as a mythology it is allegorical and symbolic: the dark force's lightning bolts can be seen as such. However the actual principles of good and evil portrayed in the mythological system are not just symbolic they are able to be the same when translated into real life, this is the same in all religions that I can think of.

As anti-force you could argue it being relative to anti-matter or dark matter (?) is to matter, or chaos is to order to use another philosophical duality.

I'm increasingly becoming drawn into a Mandolorian mythology and philosophy in my Jedi studies, they can be argued to represent an attempt to portray a neutrality or outside of the mythological war of dark and light -in the star wars mythology-. Interestingly the Mandalorian word for Sith is dar'jetii : "no longer Jedi".

Make of that what you will.

That was a bit cryptic, care to elaborate?

A parasitoid is an organism that spends a significant portion of its life history attached to or within a single host organism in a relationship that is in essence parasitic; unlike a true parasite, however, it ultimately sterilises or kills, and sometimes consumes, the host. Thus parasitoids are similar to typical parasites except in the more dire prognosis for the host.

Do you mean that we are parasites in the Force or that the Force feeds off of us?

I'm glad you posted this Alethea, because it reminded me of the old days. I remember when Dark and Light were clearly defined in the Jedi community, and your choice between the two was not taken lightly.

I remember vaguely the first time I came to the conclusion that Light and Dark were simply things that existed within us, and not as separate entities of the Force. What was amazing was how almost everyone else eventually came to that same conclusion, people I had never spoken to, and yet we were on the same page.

I liken this to the Force communicating and helping us evolve to new ideas. Interestingly enough, I see that happening now. I think we're on the verge of another great realization, and I look forward to seeing its effects.

Iron Wings wrote: Do you mean that we are parasites in the Force or that the Force feeds off of us?

By what he said, it looks like he means that the Force feeds on us...

(Would love to know how he came to that conclusion, though. )

we are only parasites if we take and do not give...the best force followers are symbiotic...they take what is needed and give back what is needed...

I agree, my reading of Khaos' words seem to think that the Force draws off his personal energy... Of all of our personal energies...

And, that this is the cause for it's existence...

If sentient beings didnt exist, would the force?

We say "Yes, of course", but really?

Do we power it with our thoughts somewhat? Just as the power of prayer, and of sending energy, positive, or negative, seems to help?

No, as I reread what I wrote, I see my problem with that...

Where does the energy that allows me to become myself and develop into myself come from? The fuel for my body comes from food and drink, but how about the part of me that isnt physical?

My "id", lol....

Just for the record, although I have stated it many places, I believe simply in the Force....

Remove the colors, in that ying-yang, which are assigned their value by man...

Remove the interior lines, the divisions that, again, are man made, man defined, and you have a circle left...

Finally, remove the line of the circle, because, again, it is man's attention, pinpointed into this circle, and defined there...

After you have removed all of man's influence from that symbol, then you have the Force...

But, why do all that?

If man, and all he creates, and is the Force,

then talking in riddles confuses, confounds, and irritates many, lololol....

Jestor wrote: If sentient beings didnt exist, would the force?

We say "Yes, of course", but really?

I think so, because the Force is an energy field that surrounds, penetrates, and binds, but is not created by, nor is it solely existent in sentient life. Nor, indeed, life in general. The Force exists in us and other animals, but also in trees and grass...but also in rocks and dirt, mountains and ores. The Force is/is in, surrounds/penetrates/binds ALL things. All of existence. So in order for the Force to not exist, everything else would have to go away, too. Even the "vacuum" of space contains dust and other particles for the Force to "dwell" in.

If we did not exist, neither would the Force...because it was humanity which "invented" the concept of the Force. We gave it form and definition. If we were not here to contemplate it, it would no longer matter. It would cease to exist if our language did not exist to give it abstract meaning.

I fully and absolutely believe both of those statements.

Without getting into the realms of RPG at all, I am 100% sure there are civilisations in the universe that also have religion and surely that constitutes a belief in the Force.

(From the Orion Letters)

Tao Te Ching 4

The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities. It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.

"This straightforward passage speaks of the use of the Force. Acting by non-action, or using the natural flow of things to accomplish one's tasks, one is using 'the Force' which is limitless. When we try to 'force' things – our muscles or our minds – we get tired, weak … these forces have limits. The “eternal void” is like Watts' explanation of 'reality' ; it contains no 'things' (see above, Tao Te Ching 1) and as such is imbued with limitless possibilities as to what can come out of it and into what it can manifest. It is ever there, yet one cannot perceive it with one's physical senses (or rather, not the ones we have names for) nor think it with one's mind. It had no beginning, and as such was there before any conception of divinity."

So, as it were, everyone is as right as they are 'not completely right'. But it really doesn't matter ... We are manifestations of the potentiality of the Force. Were there no sentient beings, as some conjecture could be in 'other' universes where conditions for the formation of such manifestations of 'matter' could not form (in any recognisable way to us) there would still be the Force. The Force is before 'being/non-being', and whether or not we can ever learn to use those properties of it, it is yet that we are used by It.

But to return to the original question : although we shall debate it from time to time, there is no dichotomy, no light nor dark, nothing is outside Its "nature" as all "natures" are Its ...

Alluvius wrote:

Jestor wrote: If sentient beings didnt exist, would the force?

We say "Yes, of course", but really?

I think so, because the Force is an energy field that surrounds, penetrates, and binds, but is not created by, nor is it solely existent in sentient life. Nor, indeed, life in general. The Force exists in us and other animals, but also in trees and grass...but also in rocks and dirt, mountains and ores. The Force is/is in, surrounds/penetrates/binds ALL things. All of existence. So in order for the Force to not exist, everything else would have to go away, too. Even the "vacuum" of space contains dust and other particles for the Force to "dwell" in.

If we did not exist, neither would the Force...because it was humanity which "invented" the concept of the Force. We gave it form and definition. If we were not here to contemplate it, it would no longer matter. It would cease to exist if our language did not exist to give it abstract meaning.

I fully and absolutely believe both of those statements.

Upon further reading, Im not sure if that is apparent to any in what I wrote, lol...

I sure muddied the water in my post...

I do agree with what you wrote, Alluvius...

And was trying to say the same thing, only it didnt work out as well.. :woohoo: :blush:

LOL...you're welcome then

(Light/Dark dicotomy)

There is no dichotomy, there is only the Dark... the gradual yet inevitable end to all things.