Delusion

"When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough.
When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much." —FEN-YANG

I thought this would be an interesting topic to bring up for philosophical discussion, as I know there's a lot implied in the quote, and possibly some misunderstanding.

It kind of goes back to Lao Tzu's original statement: Those who know do not speak; those who speak do not know. I personally do not take this literally. It would be foolish of a Jedi to simply stop talking so that they would be seen as all-knowing. However, I find that, as the quote goes, brevity is the soul of wit. To make one's point in fewer words is usually more efficient than writing an essay.

Well that's my take on it. What do you think about the quote?

Enough.


And, thank you.

It's like zen, emptiness. The silence is what is most profound and the most revealing.

It is government that uses many words, dresses up the manikin in the window to suck you in. Yet that is what religion and philosophy is, a dressing up of what is in the window. Many words or few, can be the most profound. There are so many ways sometimes to say the same issue, yet one way can work for another and the other will not.

I got into a debate on facebook about understanding...

The common thinking of, "If you cant explain it to a 6 year old, then you dont understand it" comes to mind...

I can sit here, and be quiet and act all wise (maybe I am napping on my keyboard... lol), or, I could open my mouth and prove otherwise... lol...

It is what you are saying that is important...

Somewhere, and I think it was in the intro to the audiobook of the Tao Te Ching I something like:

"The Master has little use for words, but, when he needs to use them, they flow from him with ease."

The quote you used, in my opinion, translated to:

When you are in doubt, no answer will suffice, and you will continue to look...

When you are no longer in doubt, one word to explain what you already know, is just repetition...


And, I agree...

Tao Te Ching – 2

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

Explanations of understanding are as everything else to which wu wei pertains ; it does not signify "no action" or "no words" but neither inappropriate actions nor words. Of course we must communicate, but only to the extent where we are communicating. Sometimes when we talk, it is 'ego-advertisement'. That would best be avoided ...

"Words have the capacity to destroy or to heal ; when they are just and generous, they can change the World." -- attributed to the Buddha.

Thank You Alexandre...

I saw that in my quick scan for what I was looking for...

In the intro on my audio version of the Tao Te Ching, there was a brief history of Lao Tze...

According to the version on which I studied, Lao Tze was on his way out of town on a trip... The border guard recognized him, and as for some words of wisdom...

That was one of them... (if I remember correctly) And there were a couple of others wrote, and that was before the Tao Te Ching was told...

He was also compared to Sun Tzu, and Confucious, and their eras, and lifetimes looked at real briefly...

I am going to go on an active search fopr that version, hopefully, it is on my old iPhone still, and I can find a print version of it...

Like all old manuscripts, the translation can lead to discrepancies sometimes, and other translators leave things out... I really loved the version I used, as well as the orator... He had a nice deep voice... Sounded like a white, James Earl Jones... lol...

Yes, I kind of see your point alexandre:

The Power of Now: "Most human relationships consist of minds interacting with each other. Not of human beings communicating; being in communion"

For some reason I need it worded like that to really feel safe with this type of philosophy though... if you know what I mean.

By the way have you seen Jackofalltrades around here? If you see him can you tell me I'm looking for him?

The true essence of anything cannot be explained through words...we can only understand something truly by feeling, experiencing...

Well the words themselves aren't neccessarilarly lacking. It's simply when words are the only basis for a relationship that it becomes a source of suffering.

Words themselves can infact be a great way to communicate.

Note: "...human beings comunicating, being in communion..."

Transcendence, for me describes the action but of course not the experience.

Trancendance is a good word to use. But it feels to me in this context that the word is be used as simply a tool to describe something, or the other way around. Which is all part of the same philosophy...

The list is endless. But simply becuase we are staying on topic doesn't necessarilly mean that we are getting it right. Let me explain.

I have met many people that simply use a phrase like "Here and now" in various different ways and consider themselves correct and along-side with works like the power of now. Alot of the time there is little-to-no truth is what they are saying.

This is difficult, because I wouldn't exactly tell them that, becuase then they would just get upset :S .

In truth alot of people think that wisdom and philosophy and the like are cold hearted. And I myself have thougth of Buddhism a as rubbing it in. But don't get me wrong, I am aware that (Like Buddhism says) it is my own actions, in various situations that have led to my not being able to fully grasp the concepts of these texts, and left feeling a little out-of-the-loop when I hear Buddhist teachings on the subjects that directly describe the subjects and situations that I have performed those particualr actions...

In short, follow the wisdom that is allready in your heart. Do not be concerned too much about a particularly popular way of thinking and speaking. These philosophies aren't there to simply tell you what you should do. Or to describe a model mind or state of mind. Listen to and read stories that you like (Hero path stories.)

And get inspired! :laugh:

By the way have you seen Jackofalltrades around here? If you see him can you tell me I'm looking for him?

LOL. Very Zen. I like that

Transcendence, for me describes the action but of course not the experience.

The actor, action and the experience are one. Yes?

I am in agreement with many of the statements made in this thread. What comes to mind for me is the quote...

"Ask me no questions, I will tell you no lies"

I view this statement like this...

It is not that I would outright tell you a lie, but that the answer I give you might be from the wrong perspective, or with a personal "twist" that does not fit the context of your question. Your question may be from a personal viewpoint that is skewing the question to elicit a favorable response. Either way, would it not be best to contemplate through thoughtful meditation, on the question at hand, and answer the question you already have the answer for?

I agree, Phortis. The saying that comes to mind is, "Everything I tell you is a lie". Also, "Is it what the teacher teaches or what the student learns?"

I guess the only thing to say is, "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view".

One of the sith paradoxes is "I always lie"...even the truth is a lie from a certain point of view

All the sith care about is destroying faith and generating hate. So those phrases don't surprise me. Nor do they really have much effect on me.