Gisteron and Khaos, (and everyone else..:)..)

Gisteron or Khaos...

Have you ever seen anything "pretty" or "beautiful"?

If so, how did you know?

Everyone is really welcome, but, I am targeting them specifically for an answer...

Bump...

Sorry, threads move very, very fast here.

I cannot keep up and didnt see this.

Yes to the first, though it seems more rhetorical in any case.

Now, on to the second, would you like the long answer? Or the short?

The short would be neuro biology.

The long will be very scientific, some simple, and some not, and no, I dont even understand all of it yet, so any further questioning in some instances will require your own independent research in those areas from people much more intelligent than me.

I can only answer so far as I have worked through this myself.

However, the limits of my ignorance does not mean that there is ignorance of the subject.

Khaos wrote: Sorry, threads move very, very fast here.

I cannot keep up and didnt see this.

lol, no apologies necessary...

I understand how fast they go, lol...

I see forums here you cannot, and when they are added in, sometimes I miss quite a bit, lol...

Khaos wrote: Yes to the first, though it seems more rhetorical in any case.

Well, I probably shouldn't assume..

Now, on to the second, would you like the long answer? Or the short?

The short would be neuro biology.

The long will be very scientific, some simple, and some not, and no, I dont even understand all of it yet, so any further questioning in some instances will require your own independent research in those areas from people much more intelligent than me.

I can only answer so far as I have worked through this myself.

However, the limits of my ignorance does not mean that there is ignorance of the subject.

I understand that...

I will take whatever you feel comfortable explaining...

Neurobiology, the study of the nervous system...

Sure...

So the study of the nervous system, is how you know you've seen something pretty, right?

I'm waving my hand, I'm not looking for "the answer", I am merely looking for as much as you know...

Tell me, please, what was it that you saw?

A painting? A person?

If its not too personal...

I think it was Mozart who said that when music is no longer pleasing to the ear, it ceases to be music.

I love music. Most kinds. Everything from Mozart to ACDC pleases my ear.

My brother has a fondness for System of a Down, which does NOT please my ears.

Its music to him though. And he finds their music meaningful to him.

To keep with Brenna's analogy, however, its still noise. There is still something going on.
Now, I am going to be a little presumptuous, if I may, and assume that Jestor is trying to find a tint of hypocricy in Khaos and myself where we would make assertions about what is beautiful and what isn't with our only basis being a subjective evaluation.
Of course beauty can be traced down to neurobiology, to some extent. After all, there is a reason why some frequency ratios (to keep with the sounds and music example) are pleasing to us, while the vast majority of them (an uncountable infinity) of them are not even on the chart of possible note intervals (which are a countable infinity). In that case at least there is a fair case to be made that things like ocean waves aren't music, and I have yet to hear a case in favour of that that would actually take music theory, much less any degree of neuroanatomy into account.
But then most of the final evaluations are personal and subjective. So aside from those few general principles on which we can say something is not beautiful (i.e. by any remotely established standard of beauty), we would have to resort to or mean that we find something pretty or not, rather than it actually being either.

Anyway, I'm seeing how I'm not getting to my point here, so let me jump ahead a little.
There is a difference between matters of fact and matters of perception. The difference is indeed so vast, that most languages even have different ways of forming statements in each, if one makes the effort to use language appropriately. There is a difference between judging (qualitative evaluation) and describing (quantitative evaluation). A description must correlate to an actual thing, a value judgement is a map of that thing with your personality being the function. Feeling healthy and feeling that you are healthy aren't the same thing. One is a feeling that you are having in your condition whatever it may be, the other is a hunch about what your condition actually is.

Gisteron wrote: Now, I am going to be a little presumptuous, if I may, and assume that Jestor is trying to find a tint of hypocricy in Khaos and myself where we would make assertions about what is beautiful and what isn't with our only basis being a subjective evaluation.

Thats not what I saw in this thread at all. But hes obviously going somewhere with this, so Ill leave him to it

Things which harmonize our soul by energizing those parts of our minds that need it (to be balanced, engaged and uplifted). In the broadest sense the concept of 'light', but in practical terms of function it needs to be expressed in form's which can be contextualized against our lives so they influence or even transform how we exist.

Pretty... beautiful...

Values that seem more or less set by conditioning, whether social and/or genetic, and based on patterns or frequencies (of sound, light, etc) that we consciously or subconsciously find a unique relation to or an awe inspiring mystery toward, and thus, establish a personal connection with. The conditions tend to be dynamic, set by factors such as current mood (or frame of mind) and the surrounding environment at hand which we find a matching compliment with or a clashing difference against.

In a less "logical" and more "poetic" language I'd also simply say...

Beautiful is seen when it is my true self which I can see and accept within it. Ugliness is seen when I see something which is myself that I cannot recognize at all or would rather not accept. Both however are still myself. The difference is, beauty is what I can see without my ego in the way, and ugliness is what I cannot see because it is.

My son. He was born, and I saw he was beautiful and perfect, and thought that I was done procreating. It would not get better than this. And yes I am biased. But he is and always will be beautiful to me.

lol...

This one time, I was trying to have a conversation, and, I ask a question....

The person I was talking with would come up with all sorts of reasons why I ask a questions, and from one question, come up with several answers to cover any contingencies, lol...

I feel you did that Gisteron... lol...

Did you even answer my question, or did you answer every question I didn't ask?

:lol:...

As happened in Scott's thread, a little side tracking happened, which is fine, but, I ask a simple question, lol....

i want a thread with my name on it. :dry:

also, it's perfectly possible to live in an objective universe and still have subjective opinions, like beauty.

steamboat28 wrote:
also, it's perfectly possible to live in an objective universe and still have subjective opinions, like beauty.

Was it said otherwise?

I believe the point of this was to come to an agreement that beauty is dependent upon the individual, thus tying into another thread about subjective thought. (The 'Why I believe in god(s)' thread, I think, along with some others.)

I find beauty in a lot of things, from the fickle beauty standards of magazines and fashion, to the way the wind caresses a pond, playing with the ripples it creates. I find beauty in the character and in idiosyncrasies of people. I find beauty in someone comfortable in their own skin, as well as someone who isn't and strives to make their dream a reality. From the extraordinary to the mundane, there is beauty to be found. That's my perspective. :laugh:

I have no problem admitting that the triggers are subjetive.

Only so subjective though, as all things considered beautiful or pretty, even the most taboo, is not limited to one individual

Thats nowhere in the question though.

The question was whether or not I had seen something pretty.

The next was how.

The trigger, which is could be anything, is not how you know something is pretty, or beautiful though.

Thats just what triggered such a thought in your head.

That is why you are a favorite of mine Khaos...

Well, that and your obvious good taste in avatars, lol...

YOu are living an experiment, and you are not (at least vocally) trying to see into the future...

You are paying attention to the NOW, and simply answered what was ask of you...

My next question is:

If you saw "beautiful/pretty", and know it as such...

How did you know?

You responded with "neurobiology", well, that would explain it, sure (for you, I am not necessarily in agreement)... But you dont understand all there is to give me the reason... Oh, neurons fired, making you feel "this way" or "that way", so, you chalk it up to science (biology) and that answer is good enough.... "Greater minds", or they are still searching for an answer to that, not having found the trigger, biologically...

YOu chalk it up, to science you have not proven for yourself... On the work you have not tested, or verified, and only trust that those who did the work, and those who verified the work, did it in a way that made sense to you... That they covered every nuance of it, and didnt miss a step...

Trust in people, that you dont know...

But, that doesnt explain how "this" is "beautiful" and "that" is not to you...

Preference, or perspective, or a bunch of other words that someone else can use to correct me, selective choices, and personal taste, lol, whatever...

SO, you cant explain to me how you know... But you do... right?

(Quizzical tone, not smart alec-y.....)

You know, even though you cannot explain it...

Yes?

Khaos wrote: Thats nowhere in the question though.

The question was whether or not I had seen something pretty.

Mmm... true. I jump ahead of myself, at times, because I move past what's asked and go into other avenues of thought.

So, my own participation in this, though not specifically called for, is as so: I speculate, or come to the conclusion, that I think things are pretty or beautiful because of experiences that gave me positive feelings. I find disgust in things that gave me negative feelings. That's not to say that these things couldn't swap places in future experiences, because things that I used to find ugly or obscene are now marvelous, somehow. I choose to see beauty in things based on a particular aspect that I find pleasant. It could be caused by triggers, as you mentioned, created in my earlier experiences. But, as I grow in my walk with the Force, I've been examining every thought and feeling to try and understand why I feel these things. It hasn't been easy, though. Being mindful during a time of complacency is difficult when distractions come my way. There are obviously things that I need to think more about.

Thanks, Jestor... :laugh: