encourage or challenge?

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote: I think both fall under a larger category of manipulation and my personal favorite- find out what a person is emotionally invested in and exploit it by any means necessary to reach your goals, even if it's something relatively innocuous like making them succeed.

To me, between these two, if I was choosing just them, it wouldn't matter which one is easier or more difficult or anything as weak as that. I would use whatever worked, regardless of them remembering it later or thinking fondly of it. If making someone feel bad because they didn't give it their all is the better way, I'd do it. If it was more efficient to gently build them up, that's what I'd do.

End result matters. Whatever gets you to that without obviating the goal itself is fine, and one should pick the most effective means to achieve their end.

exploit their emotional investments to attain your personal goals?

this is exactly what I was trying to say

it doesn't matter if it works or not

thats what true encouragement means

to say you still have potential to be stronger even when things become their darkest

everybody needs it

and everybody needs challenge

what I am trying to say is that people have no encouragement.
it's a dying art, sadly

When you say things like "It doesn't matter if it works or not", I doubt that you were trying to say what I said as well. My entire point was to use the best possible means to achieve one's goals via manipulation. Different people will respond better or worse to certain tactics. In addition to finding this proper key, you need to know how to set a fire under their ass to make it relevant.

If I may, I'd like to bore you with two personal stories to illustrate my point. One is about my younger brother Dante Bluesummers. He was a screwup in every sense of the word, to the point where every family member but myself had disowned him. He pathologically sought out wrong choices and made as many as he could. He was willfully stupid, and my answer to it was tough love- Dante, for his failings, was still a Bluesummers, and I knew he could do better. So when he messed up, I derided his poor judgment, and berated him for not living up to his memetic potential. He died two years ago, with enough drugs in him to kill a blue whale and thinking that I despised him. It's a guilt I live with every day for my poor judgment.

However, encouragement is not always the best option either. Six years ago, a man tried to intimidate me, and when that didn't work, he tried to kill me. At the time, I was a different man. I spared him, and encouraged him to become who he wanted others to believe he was. He became obsessed with what he saw as that humiliation, and a little less than five years ago, he killed my wife in vengeance for my mercy. And that, too, is a guilt that I will take to my grave. Had I crippled or killed him when it was still within the bounds of self-defense, my most precious family would be with me today.

Nothing is ever set in stone, and we can never foresee the magnitude of even our small decisions. Encouragement has a place, and so does cruelty. Use your best judgment for which is appropriate, but never rely on absolutes, which both of these failures were based upon. I was harsh to Dante because that is the way of the Bluesummers family, a very cold and warlike bloodline. I spared Edward because I wanted to leave a better legacy in the world than I had been. Both came from noble enough intentions, but I was still just a stooge not thinking for myself each time, and both times, it cost me something irreplaceable and I gained so little from it.

Encouragement might make some people feel good, but it's not always what they need, or they may apply it in rather a grisly way.

When you want to know how to handle someone, evaluate them logically, and supplement it by reaching out to them with the Force, gleaning impressions and perhaps even motivations or thoughts, and craft your strategy so.

Bluesummers wrote:

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote: I think both fall under a larger category of manipulation and my personal favorite- find out what a person is emotionally invested in and exploit it by any means necessary to reach your goals, even if it's something relatively innocuous like making them succeed.

To me, between these two, if I was choosing just them, it wouldn't matter which one is easier or more difficult or anything as weak as that. I would use whatever worked, regardless of them remembering it later or thinking fondly of it. If making someone feel bad because they didn't give it their all is the better way, I'd do it. If it was more efficient to gently build them up, that's what I'd do.

End result matters. Whatever gets you to that without obviating the goal itself is fine, and one should pick the most effective means to achieve their end.

exploit their emotional investments to attain your personal goals?

this is exactly what I was trying to say

it doesn't matter if it works or not

thats what true encouragement means

to say you still have potential to be stronger even when things become their darkest

everybody needs it

and everybody needs challenge

what I am trying to say is that people have no encouragement.
it's a dying art, sadly

When you say things like "It doesn't matter if it works or not", I doubt that you were trying to say what I said as well. My entire point was to use the best possible means to achieve one's goals via manipulation. Different people will respond better or worse to certain tactics. In addition to finding this proper key, you need to know how to set a fire under their ass to make it relevant.

If I may, I'd like to bore you with two personal stories to illustrate my point. One is about my younger brother Dante Bluesummers. He was a screwup in every sense of the word, to the point where every family member but myself had disowned him. He pathologically sought out wrong choices and made as many as he could. He was willfully stupid, and my answer to it was tough love- Dante, for his failings, was still a Bluesummers, and I knew he could do better. So when he messed up, I derided his poor judgment, and berated him for not living up to his memetic potential. He died two years ago, with enough drugs in him to kill a blue whale and thinking that I despised him. It's a guilt I live with every day for my poor judgment.

However, encouragement is not always the best option either. Six years ago, a man tried to intimidate me, and when that didn't work, he tried to kill me. At the time, I was a different man. I spared him, and encouraged him to become who he wanted others to believe he was. He became obsessed with what he saw as that humiliation, and a little less than five years ago, he killed my wife in vengeance for my mercy. And that, too, is a guilt that I will take to my grave. Had I crippled or killed him when it was still within the bounds of self-defense, my most precious family would be with me today.

Nothing is ever set in stone, and we can never foresee the magnitude of even our small decisions. Encouragement has a place, and so does cruelty. Use your best judgment for which is appropriate, but never rely on absolutes, which both of these failures were based upon. I was harsh to Dante because that is the way of the Bluesummers family, a very cold and warlike bloodline. I spared Edward because I wanted to leave a better legacy in the world than I had been. Both came from noble enough intentions, but I was still just a stooge not thinking for myself each time, and both times, it cost me something irreplaceable and I gained so little from it.

Encouragement might make some people feel good, but it's not always what they need, or they may apply it in rather a grisly way.

When you want to know how to handle someone, evaluate them logically, and supplement it by reaching out to them with the Force, gleaning impressions and perhaps even motivations or thoughts, and craft your strategy so.

I meant you provided the exact argument that caused me to make this topic

and I am sorry to hear about your family

you are in my prayers

in the deepest respect for your loss as I can hold, I have to say, though

you can't judge an entire philosophy due to the reaction of a psychopath

and you can't judge an entire philosophy from one trial


you did both, my brother


you gave the point that there is always an exception to the rule

however now you are holding the exception as the true rule, from the appearance

I respond better to encouragement. I just find that when someone challenges me I really don't care lol. I have nothing to prove to them so don't feel a need to show such...

RyuJin wrote: Persuasion/manipulation....tomato/tomahto...one sounds nicer than the other, both are essentially the same...we're all manipulated/persuaded to think or act on a constant basis...

That's it exactly. I believe we both mean the same thing whether we say manipulation or persuasion, but one word has a negative connotation associated with it. I'm NOT saying it's wrong to use it, just that I prefer persuasion.

For example, if my friend died and I was breaking the news to his wife...

Your husband has passed...
or
Your husband is now worm food...

They both mean the same thing, but one sounds less harsh.

I know what you mean though, I just prefer a different word to describe it; that's all.

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote:

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote: I think both fall under a larger category of manipulation and my personal favorite- find out what a person is emotionally invested in and exploit it by any means necessary to reach your goals, even if it's something relatively innocuous like making them succeed.

To me, between these two, if I was choosing just them, it wouldn't matter which one is easier or more difficult or anything as weak as that. I would use whatever worked, regardless of them remembering it later or thinking fondly of it. If making someone feel bad because they didn't give it their all is the better way, I'd do it. If it was more efficient to gently build them up, that's what I'd do.

End result matters. Whatever gets you to that without obviating the goal itself is fine, and one should pick the most effective means to achieve their end.

exploit their emotional investments to attain your personal goals?

this is exactly what I was trying to say

it doesn't matter if it works or not

thats what true encouragement means

to say you still have potential to be stronger even when things become their darkest

everybody needs it

and everybody needs challenge

what I am trying to say is that people have no encouragement.
it's a dying art, sadly

When you say things like "It doesn't matter if it works or not", I doubt that you were trying to say what I said as well. My entire point was to use the best possible means to achieve one's goals via manipulation. Different people will respond better or worse to certain tactics. In addition to finding this proper key, you need to know how to set a fire under their ass to make it relevant.

If I may, I'd like to bore you with two personal stories to illustrate my point. One is about my younger brother Dante Bluesummers. He was a screwup in every sense of the word, to the point where every family member but myself had disowned him. He pathologically sought out wrong choices and made as many as he could. He was willfully stupid, and my answer to it was tough love- Dante, for his failings, was still a Bluesummers, and I knew he could do better. So when he messed up, I derided his poor judgment, and berated him for not living up to his memetic potential. He died two years ago, with enough drugs in him to kill a blue whale and thinking that I despised him. It's a guilt I live with every day for my poor judgment.

However, encouragement is not always the best option either. Six years ago, a man tried to intimidate me, and when that didn't work, he tried to kill me. At the time, I was a different man. I spared him, and encouraged him to become who he wanted others to believe he was. He became obsessed with what he saw as that humiliation, and a little less than five years ago, he killed my wife in vengeance for my mercy. And that, too, is a guilt that I will take to my grave. Had I crippled or killed him when it was still within the bounds of self-defense, my most precious family would be with me today.

Nothing is ever set in stone, and we can never foresee the magnitude of even our small decisions. Encouragement has a place, and so does cruelty. Use your best judgment for which is appropriate, but never rely on absolutes, which both of these failures were based upon. I was harsh to Dante because that is the way of the Bluesummers family, a very cold and warlike bloodline. I spared Edward because I wanted to leave a better legacy in the world than I had been. Both came from noble enough intentions, but I was still just a stooge not thinking for myself each time, and both times, it cost me something irreplaceable and I gained so little from it.

Encouragement might make some people feel good, but it's not always what they need, or they may apply it in rather a grisly way.

When you want to know how to handle someone, evaluate them logically, and supplement it by reaching out to them with the Force, gleaning impressions and perhaps even motivations or thoughts, and craft your strategy so.

I meant you provided the exact argument that caused me to make this topic

and I am sorry to hear about your family

you are in my prayers

in the deepest respect for your loss as I can hold, I have to say, though

you can't judge an entire philosophy due to the reaction of a psychopath

and you can't judge an entire philosophy from one trial


you did both, my brother


you gave the point that there is always an exception to the rule

however now you are holding the exception as the true rule, from the appearance

My quote thing is getting way longer and I don't know how to trim it down.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm fine enough now.

That I provided two examples does mean I have only two to share, but it is not my intention to put up a rough draft of my biography. Paths of action that work great in theory, maybe even on paper, even in a laboratory setting, can fail very hard when applied to normal life. Don't cut yourself off from options that might provide the exact result you're looking for.

Learn_To_Know wrote:

RyuJin wrote: Persuasion/manipulation....tomato/tomahto...one sounds nicer than the other, both are essentially the same...we're all manipulated/persuaded to think or act on a constant basis...

That's it exactly. I believe we both mean the same thing whether we say manipulation or persuasion, but one word has a negative connotation associated with it. I'm NOT saying it's wrong to use it, just that I prefer persuasion.

For example, if my friend died and I was breaking the news to his wife...

Your husband has passed...
or
Your husband is now worm food...

They both mean the same thing, but one sounds less harsh.

I know what you mean though, I just prefer a different word to describe it; that's all.

Yeah, I use them interchangeably...but I also take in the situation before deciding...Iwouldn't approach someone and callously say "your husband is worm food"....at least not unless the individual in question was on my bad side, then it may be "don't worry about cooking for two" :evil: j/k...

Bluesummers wrote:

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote:

suliskveteba wrote:

Bluesummers wrote: I think both fall under a larger category of manipulation and my personal favorite- find out what a person is emotionally invested in and exploit it by any means necessary to reach your goals, even if it's something relatively innocuous like making them succeed.

To me, between these two, if I was choosing just them, it wouldn't matter which one is easier or more difficult or anything as weak as that. I would use whatever worked, regardless of them remembering it later or thinking fondly of it. If making someone feel bad because they didn't give it their all is the better way, I'd do it. If it was more efficient to gently build them up, that's what I'd do.

End result matters. Whatever gets you to that without obviating the goal itself is fine, and one should pick the most effective means to achieve their end.

exploit their emotional investments to attain your personal goals?

this is exactly what I was trying to say

it doesn't matter if it works or not

thats what true encouragement means

to say you still have potential to be stronger even when things become their darkest

everybody needs it

and everybody needs challenge

what I am trying to say is that people have no encouragement.
it's a dying art, sadly

When you say things like "It doesn't matter if it works or not", I doubt that you were trying to say what I said as well. My entire point was to use the best possible means to achieve one's goals via manipulation. Different people will respond better or worse to certain tactics. In addition to finding this proper key, you need to know how to set a fire under their ass to make it relevant.

If I may, I'd like to bore you with two personal stories to illustrate my point. One is about my younger brother Dante Bluesummers. He was a screwup in every sense of the word, to the point where every family member but myself had disowned him. He pathologically sought out wrong choices and made as many as he could. He was willfully stupid, and my answer to it was tough love- Dante, for his failings, was still a Bluesummers, and I knew he could do better. So when he messed up, I derided his poor judgment, and berated him for not living up to his memetic potential. He died two years ago, with enough drugs in him to kill a blue whale and thinking that I despised him. It's a guilt I live with every day for my poor judgment.

However, encouragement is not always the best option either. Six years ago, a man tried to intimidate me, and when that didn't work, he tried to kill me. At the time, I was a different man. I spared him, and encouraged him to become who he wanted others to believe he was. He became obsessed with what he saw as that humiliation, and a little less than five years ago, he killed my wife in vengeance for my mercy. And that, too, is a guilt that I will take to my grave. Had I crippled or killed him when it was still within the bounds of self-defense, my most precious family would be with me today.

Nothing is ever set in stone, and we can never foresee the magnitude of even our small decisions. Encouragement has a place, and so does cruelty. Use your best judgment for which is appropriate, but never rely on absolutes, which both of these failures were based upon. I was harsh to Dante because that is the way of the Bluesummers family, a very cold and warlike bloodline. I spared Edward because I wanted to leave a better legacy in the world than I had been. Both came from noble enough intentions, but I was still just a stooge not thinking for myself each time, and both times, it cost me something irreplaceable and I gained so little from it.

Encouragement might make some people feel good, but it's not always what they need, or they may apply it in rather a grisly way.

When you want to know how to handle someone, evaluate them logically, and supplement it by reaching out to them with the Force, gleaning impressions and perhaps even motivations or thoughts, and craft your strategy so.

I meant you provided the exact argument that caused me to make this topic

and I am sorry to hear about your family

you are in my prayers

in the deepest respect for your loss as I can hold, I have to say, though

you can't judge an entire philosophy due to the reaction of a psychopath

and you can't judge an entire philosophy from one trial


you did both, my brother


you gave the point that there is always an exception to the rule

however now you are holding the exception as the true rule, from the appearance

My quote thing is getting way longer and I don't know how to trim it down.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm fine enough now.

That I provided two examples does mean I have only two to share, but it is not my intention to put up a rough draft of my biography. Paths of action that work great in theory, maybe even on paper, even in a laboratory setting, can fail very hard when applied to normal life. Don't cut yourself off from options that might provide the exact result you're looking for.

I never did, I infact brought up an example of how it applies to real life

you might argue that I infact brought two

but my argument for that was that your based it off the reaction of a psychopath

and don't act like I am asking for your biography, just give me an example that proves your point, it can be as mundane as a taxi experience

you don't actually have to, but if you are going to bring up examples, do it properly