Practice what you Preach...

For my ten cents, and all the value you may find in it. I believe there is an undercurrent to all things, what I would call The Flow, and then the energy represented from Life while it taps into that flow, what most would call The Force, or Qi, and that in that there is also a consciousness underneath that flow, what some would call God, or The Truth, and that within all of that all things exist.

Now, I can't provide you scientific examples of it, however I can't scientifically prove most things exist that are of any relevance to day to day life like happiness, kindness, compassion, mercy, peace, passion, direction, and purpose. That being said, those things weigh more heavily on day to day life than the level of sentience of the cells in my body at least as it concerns my life.

All of that taken into account, my reasoning comes from deep meditation on mental puzzles, self awareness, ideas, science, the concept of thought, emotion, energy within the body, external energy as well as meditation on occult practices, gods and goddesses, the underlying flow.

It is, when taken as a whole a body of evidence that I can not denounce. Yet just as I have not read every single book that Ren or Alluvius has, nor have I had all their experiences, I could never hope to truly see what I would call "Their Gate of Truth" or that core idea and function within their soul that defines who and what they are. At best I can through the foggy window of my gate look across at their gate, distorted by their light, distorted by my light, and attempt to gain an idea not of the context of that gate but of the shape vaguely.

If it seems unsettling looking at it across a great distance so far removed from the reality of it, then that may be more to do with the nature of being human than anything with The Truth it's self.

Likewise, there is also this supreme fact we all forget from time to time. Even if I have proven that Truth to myself there is doubt. Read every science text, read every book, compile all the information in the universe and boil it down to a tincture and you will have alchemically not distilled away from it in any essence of doubt but because of the nature of human reasoning instead you have created a tincture overflowing with doubt.

It is something at the core of our being rational, thinking, living, surviving beings. If we did not have doubt as a corner stone we would die very quickly. Doubt is the core of our awareness on some essence. Yet when you form such a tincture the taste of your own truth having been amplified is like a drug. Whenever one balances that drug with its natural and included counterbalance of doubt that is instilled with it there is bound to be some reaction.

Likewise when one tastes another truth, the raw essence of it and of the doubt will be distorted by their own distilled truth and doubt, the result is that the mix if volatile.

So if things seem heated, it is more a statement to the nature of doubt within. We seek to prove things to others so that we may better believe them ourselves.

Fire and Ice wrote: Are the lot of you a bunch of stoners or something?

Keep it civil/respectful please...

Wescli Wardest wrote: Ok… I have noticed some contradictions between what is taught and what is practiced. And I am NOT calling anyone out specifically but I would like to get opinions on the matter.

We, and I teach it too, are taught NOT to let our emotions control us. I have had discussions with others before about different emotional levels and (if I remember correctly) passion was an emotion or could be driven by emotions. The discrepancy comes from the fact that I have noticed (several times) masters, knights and members stating how they are “driven” by their passions.

I realize that the “Sith” are driven by their emotions and passions, but the ones I am referring to are proclaimed Jedi.

Any thoughts?

And it all started with this.

ren wrote:

What more basic display of self-awareness is there than acting in self-preservation?

Computer viruses act in self-preservation, yet, do not display self-awareness.

This is an area, sir, in which I have been specifically educated, and now participate professionally, thus I have some real experience in as well. To put it succinctly, no, computer viruses do not demonstrate self preservation. The closest thing to that you could get would be a "hardened" virus (which is a virus that is specifically designed to get past anti-virus software, for those of you who do not know). And it is only fulfilling lines of code. When anti-virus software discovers a virus, there is no ensuing struggle, the AV software simply does what it's coding allows it to do to quarantine and delete the virus, and the virus does absolutely nothing to defend itself. Which is directly contrary to acting in self-preservation. But I will grant that you are correct...computer viruses demonstrate absolutely no consciousness.

ren wrote:

you simply stated awareness of self or awareness of surrounding

Yes.

I demonstrate that all life forms exhibit both levels of awareness

No.

I will grant that I didn't perform the experimentation myself, but I did act within your criteria. If you feel that I did not, then show or explain how I did not don't simply argue, please. Argument is absolutely unconstructive.

ren wrote:

and you changed the "requirements"

When did I change the requirements?

When I satisfied your conditions for consciousness, and you decided after the fact that those conditions you set were suddenly somehow not enough to "prove" consciousness.

ren wrote:

If you're going to ignore evidence just to be able to thumb your nose at all who oppose your view and say "nyah, nyah, I'm right and you're not"; or change the "rules of the game" just so you can "win", then what can we hope to accomplish by discussion with you?

I think you'll find this all started with "What can I say, I do not believe as you do". You keep on trying to tell me I'm wrong: "I'm sorry Ren, but I feel I must step in here because you are wrong. " There's nothing to win.

I think you'll find, it was not me you said that to. I also believe that, if you'll go back and re-read my posts to you with the air of calm in which they were written, you'll find that I have only been expressing my thoughts on the matters that others have brought up...in a sincere attempt to further the discussion. It was not me who framed this discussion as an argument. In an argument, there is something to win. Arguments are by their very nature contentious, and therefore have "winners" and "losers". I will lose this argument because I am still trying to have a discussion, however. Also, let me go ahead and address this related idea here, I only said you were wrong once, and that was in an area that science actually does refute your claim. If you are going to look at documented, verifiable, scientifically gathered fact and say, effectively, "nu-uh", then there is no point in anyone telling you anything. Likewise there is little purpose in you continuing to assert that you are "right" (I did not, except in a single instance, make this a right/wrong argument, please remember that). If you cannot accept that you may still have things to learn, then how sad for you. If you refute others' assertions of their beliefs here simply because you have been on your path or 8 years then I would like to mention that others, even here, may have been on their paths longer than you (I certainly have), and since that "seniority" seems to make a difference to you, you would do well to remember that you are not necessarily the "wisest", and to claim otherwise is pure hubris. I will not try to speak for others, but I have wondered more than once if you actually think that you have reached some pinnacle of understanding and wisdom, that somehow you have nothing left to learn from the other people here, or if you're simply trolling because you know you can get away with it. If you truly believe that you have "outgrown" this community, that we have nothing left to offer you in tearms of learning, then why are you still here? You should have moved on to "bigger things" by now. But I digress, I'm sorry for that diatribe, I didn't actually intend it, it just came out. Anyway, all of the previous (on topic) said, I see no reason why both paradigms cannot mutually exist, as all our beliefs, unless we're simply regurgitating an opinion that someone else has given us (or forced upon us), are the culmination of a lifetime of experience and at least anecdotal evidence. I felt that the important thing, as Jedi, was the free flow of ideas and the discussion of differing points of view. Are you (and here when I say "you", I do not refer specifically to "Ren") incapable of conversation without the ulterior motive of being "right"? Are you incapable of philosophical or spiritual discussion? I will not participate in an "argument" as it is abundantly clear to me that this "sub-thread" has become. There is an old saying: "Take care when arguing with fools, passersby may not be able to tell the difference."

For your own sake, Ren, I'm going to ignore the arrogance of the rest of your post. Really though, it was almost downright offensive...and I think many Buddhists would agree. And I also will not address the "Trolling" behavior you have demonstrated on this and many other posts. These things are not the point of our discussion, and I feel that to address them would only lead down a darker path than we have already begun. I just mentioned them so you might know that they have been noticed. (In case that is important to you.)

It occurs to me as I re-read this post that I am dangerously close to being "drawn out" in this thread. I am still going to post, however, because I believe that what I have said here, needs to be said. I am, however, done with this argument. If you want to return this to the medium of "discussion" I will be happy to continue, I love to hear about alternate points of view, and if you can, I'd love to hear what you have to say about what has shown you the lack of consciousness of the universe. I promise, I will not argue with you. If you want to take a real discussion of these ideas to PMs, I would welcome a good conversation. But please be aware, I know the difference between an argument and a debate, and I am also familiar with the difference between either of the former and conversation. I will not "fight" you. But I am happy to discuss. As for calling you wrong in the one post where I did. I apologize, sincerely, I should have handled that better. Thank you for helping me learn humility and diplomacy, whether it was your intention to teach it or not, you have succeeded. Please, for future reference, do not be offended by my views or questions; I believe that so long as my soul exists, I will not be done learning. There is no "end" to the path of wisdom.

Have I ever told you "you're wrong I have to step in" ?

Have I called you unwise? Called you stubborn? Said that you are trolling? That you are arrogant? That you still have much to learn? these are personal attacks you mounted against me. Not to mention this whole "oh you think you're so great" line of thought.


You and fraterdavid have been trying to prove me wrong instead of proving yourselves right. I didn't ask you a single time to prove your theories, to give examples, or anything of the sort. You were arguing, I wasn't. I have said you are entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine, and never tried to make any other point than that. Just going with the flow, adapting to your tone.

We are Potatoes
You are Tomatoes
We are Tomoatoes
You are Potatoes

This thread has derailed...by the pedantic patrol.

Lets see it from a different POV

FraeterDavid & Other Guy who's name I can't be bothered to scroll up to read reply to my post about what this thread is now about and your POV please

Ren, do the same please.

Lets see if we can not resolve this before it turns into fingers in a faulty blender.

ren wrote: You're shifting the burden of proof here.

The burden of proof rests on us all as scientists of life. That is, we all seek knowledge of the Living Force, and "science" is based on a word (scientia) which means "knowledge". So we, as Jedi, are all truly scientists of Life. If you have any examples which can serve as proof, then it shouldn't matter where the burden is currently resting, now should it? I have provided examples of my own as to what methods I have employed to verify universal consciousness. I have yet to see you mention anything, other than being on your sofa, as evidence of anything. Shifting the "burden of proof" is only fair at this point.

ren wrote: I am sitting on my sofa. Looking around the room. I cannot witness any conscious, radiant, living energy.

This is a perfect example of what I mean when I say you have misinterpreted experience. As you look around your room, you are looking at the interaction of the photons which are striking your retinas after interacting with the electrons mostly in the outer shells of the atoms of whatever materials exist within your living room (or wherever you are). What is a photon if not radiant energy? Or an electron, for that matter? Lightning bolts are very radiant. Radiance is just a reference to the life-giving property of motion and change inherent to the Force as it exists within manifestation.

But can you SEE the individual electrons? No. Yet science has demonstrated beyond all reasonable refutation that electrons do exist, can be manipulated in specific ways, are responsible for the formation of matter (because, without electrons to define its outer boundaries, an atom is largely "empty" space). So as you look around the room, you are actually seeing the effects of what is present but is individually unseen. Does that make it any less real or true? The same thing goes for the consciousness of all things. We must learn to look deeper.

What do you think imbues all the objects in the physical world with their properties? We can say electrons, or the interaction of electrons, protons, and neutrons, etc. But what are those? We can then say quarks, but what are those? Everything is ultimately animate energy being rolled into particulate forms by the Laws of Vibration and Rotation as the only means of universally asserting "I AM". Form follows function. This applies whether the I AM is a particle, a cell, a rock, a tree, a person, etc.

These are all just different levels of Force assertion into Selfhood. And each level of consciousness is an aggregation of the levels of consciousness below it by which it is built up. Human consciousness does not just spring magically into being, or for no reason. It's summation. Life is all about all the little +1s that add up into everything imaginable within our experience. It's just simple math. But as I said before, profound truth is typically simple.

ren wrote: "Existence precedes and commands Essence" . It's in my profile.

In what way(s) do you see that as disproving what I'm saying here?

ren wrote:

Just know there are other sources of far more fruitful use to this consideration.

What consideration?

Are you really having that much trouble following what I'm saying? The consideration of whether all things consist of conscious energy, of course.

ren wrote:

FraterDavid wrote: Further experience on your part will resolve that disparity in your mind between what I know to be truth from direct, repeatable experience (of the appropriate kind) and what you see as nonsense.

There is no disparity of this kind in my mind.

Well of course, in your mind, there is not. We are our own worst enemies.

ren wrote: That's right. I do not have experience of things which do not exist.

Or things which you will not allow yourself to recognize as existing, even if they are right in front of your face every day. Misinterpretation of experience is an insidious thing. You have the opportunity to apply certain principles to verify the existence of that which I have been speaking (the consciousness of all things). Sitting on your couch and looking around the room without truly seeing is not one of those principles.

ren wrote: I have never witnessed, not a single time in my life, that "pure radiant consciousness" you speak of.

My point is simply that perhaps you have witnessed it every single moment of your life, but you have not yet realized what it is that you are looking at. I do not have any "tools" or "equipment" that you do not also have. You have simply looked without seeing. There is a quote in my profile that is of particular relevance here.

If the Force is all things, and all things exist solely within the Force, then that means whenever you look at any object, what you are actually seeing is the Force. But are you falling prey to surface appearances and seeing the object only, or do you strive to see the Force of which it is comprised as well? And what about yourself? You are the Force also. Which means if you possess self-consciousness, so does the Force, because your consciousness is arising from the Force. There is nothing else from which it can arise, if there is nothing but the Force.

ren wrote:

FraterDavid wrote: I can tell a lot by your general attitude and lack of awareness of your own circumstances, including the meat suit you think your consciousness arises from for no discernible reason.

Good for you.

It is not solely my good that I am concerned with here. By doing what I can to help you to be stronger, I become stronger as well, because we are not truly separate. I wish I could equally say "good for you", too. But it is not good (in the sense of not serving what we all want, which is greater freedom of experience), and is in fact quite disempowering, not to realize the effects you can have on the world due to the interactions of your consciousness with the consciousness of all the circumstances of your life.

ren wrote: Perhaps one day you will realize the error of your ways and will be able to follow that line. But it's OK if you never do. Lots of wonderful people never do.

Sigh. These last two sentences above are pure truculence, and untrue, on top of it. We are all destined eventually to realize the inner truths of the Jedi Code. They are unavoidable exactly because they refer to the secret truths about our origin and real Self. And no, by extension, it would not be ok if I never do. Fortunately, that is not a potential issue, for myself or anyone else.

We arise from a backdrop of pure peace, perfect knowledge, total serenity, unbroken harmony, and eternal life, and to that backdrop we inevitably return. There is no "following" the second line, there is only coming to realize, through sufficient meditation, the inner truth of it. But in all fairness, I do have errors in my ways. Of course I do. We all do. And to be quite honest, my errors span more than just the second line of the Jedi Code. LOL But I do know, from science and from experience, at least this much, about the pervasive, ubiquitous consciousness of the universe and of all the things in it.

You can come to have this awareness too. It is really not that difficult, with the right frame of mind. The Law of Suggestion simply (but powerfully) says, "The Force is amenable to control by the suggestions of our conscious focus." Amenability itself implies consciousness, as does its response to suggestions based entirely in consciousness.

ren wrote:

FraterDavid wrote: You said before that you believe the Force is all there is, that there is nothing other than the Force. That would have to mean that whatever we are, we are actually the Force, or at least a portion of it, because there is nothing else. Would you not agree?

Yes. I am a unifying Force Jedi.

Well, regardless of how you classify yourself as a result of those views, I just wanted first to confirm that those are your views.

ren wrote:

FraterDavid wrote: And if we are the Force, or a part of it, and we possess both self-consciousness and consciousness of the Force, then would not the Force also possess those awarenesses, since ultimately there is nothing but the Force?

Everything is within the Force, yes.

Then, logically, this goes against what you've been saying… Or am I missing something here?

You have said the Force is not conscious, and that it is not aware of itself. But if you have consciousness, and also have consciousness of the Force, and you exist solely within the Force, then how does the Force not also have those things? That makes no sense.

Also, I notice you use the word "conscience" in a later post in this thread. Conscience is not the same thing as consciousness. Conscience is a moral weathervane that arises from consciousness. If you have been thinking this whole time that when I say consciousness, I meant conscience, then I can definitely see why you'd think I was wrong. Everything has consciousness, whereas most things don't have conscience. Conscience requires a certain minimum level of consciousness in order to be expressed. And yes, I would agree, conscience and its dictates are a matter of opinion. Like whether Coke or Pepsi is better.

ren wrote:

FraterDavid wrote: Good, then we may make some progress.

Not really.

Well, if you are already convinced that no progress may be made, then there is nothing more to discuss.

ren wrote: You didn't have to convince me that it is a waste for a Jedi to be blind to the true nature of the Force. But it's OK. Lots of people, just like you, fail to understand the nature of the Force, sometimes even fear it, and live fulfilling lives.

Oh, ren… I suppose if this is the best you can come up with, to try to throw it back on me, then ok. I will wear your claim, to satisfy you that all is as it should be in the world. Yes ren, I am blind to the true nature of the Force and am motivated by fear. Fear of what exactly, who knows, but that's ok. I will leave you to your own devices, unconscious as you may see them to be.

Fraternally,
-David

You know, all you had to do was accept I believe as I do, and you believe as you do. You may see a flower and believe it to be conscious as I believe it to be not conscious. Does it make the flower any different? Is it this difficult for you to accept differences of opinion? Why do you feel there had to be a victor? That someone had to change their opinion? And change that opinion over something as insignificant as a forum thread?

Ah. At least you got a taste of your own medicine.

Metsu Desal wrote: FraeterDavid & Other Guy who's name I can't be bothered to scroll up to read reply to my post about what this thread is now about and your POV please

Ren, do the same please.

Lets see if we can not resolve this before it turns into fingers in a faulty blender.

Not to worry, I am done responding to ren on the matter of consciousness. Although I cannot speak for Alluvius. Whomever is still interested in commenting on the original topic of this thread is welcome to do so, as they have been all along. Threads evolve over time, and sometimes rather quickly. But they often return later or come full circle, etc. This is to be expected.

The discussion of whether the fundamental nature of the universe is consciousness is very important to the consideration of emotion, passion, desire, etc. A Sith derives their power from the use of such things in (I would say brutish) concert with the Law of Suggestion, which would have no meaning or power if everything in the universe did not have some level of consciousness. "Energy follows thought" solely because energy is consciousness.

Lots of people mistake passion for desire, or desire for passion, or both. Desire can be used legitimately (i.e. non-hypocritically) by a Jedi, and is actually a requirement of all spiritual progress, so long as that desire does not become imbalanced into passion or emotion, which are unnecessary to fully utilize the Principle of Suggestion successfully. But I suppose in the end analysis a lot of that depends on whether you recognize love as being only an emotion, or as also being a universal state of Oneness which expresses itself through individuals when they are serene and at peace.

Does this relate directly enough?

Fraternally,
-David

FraterDavid wrote: The discussion of whether the fundamental nature of the universe is consciousness is very important to the consideration of emotion, passion, desire, etc.

I tend to take the physics angle for the Force, that its about resonance and interconnectivness which is beyond a limited conscious awareness (which we think is 'us'). Consciousness then for me is not the height of being, but just the product of the mind to achieve sufficient level of engagement with sensory organs to survive. So for me, its hopefully breaking the bad habits of the conscious mind and achieving a better relationship with the full possible suite of awareness, and more efficient and effective mental process. If resolving this down to 3 values to match the Primary Tenets, its looking to achieve accurate (focus), efficient (knowledge) and effective (wisdom) process. So then the Force to me as a Jedi is about finding those same things in all other systems, no matter mechanical, biological, externally aware, self aware, etc.