Contemplation of Death (Atheism applied to non-atheism)

Adder wrote:

Resticon wrote: Perhaps but were you aware that humans are the only species in nature that find infanticide as morally wrong? Perhaps if humans no longer had the morality of life/death or cared about whether someone lived or died because they would just "come back" then fewer people would become attached or form relationships and their compassion for a person would become a moot point.

Are you suggesting humanity only stays together because of the belief in reincarnation or an afterlife? It's an interesting idea but I'd imagine there are plenty of individuals and communities without such a belief who are not killing each other. I'd guess it has more to do with empathy and compassion then fear of the afterlife.

I am actually not saying humanity stays together because of it's belief in the afterlife. Quite the opposite actually. I am saying that if everyone believed in a completely new life or continuation of this life after death, it is possible there would be no moral problem with murder as everyone would just keep living on. Even religions like Christianity had to make an alternative to a pure continuation of life after death (Heaven and Hell). There are plenty of occasions both in the past and present that killing someone was considered right morally. Sacrificing virgins to deities, killing by execution for crimes that have been committed, extremists who kill innocents so that they will go to heaven. These people believed that killing someone was morally correct and so they do. Compassion for their victims never came into the equation. If there was no moral right or wrong to killing someone...who knows what people might do?

My belief is that when you die your Energy, Chi, Force what ever you want to call it leaves the body and disperses into the surrounding universe. Your energy is then re purposed by the universe. You are no longer you but just pure energy; electrons rejoining the expanse of the known and unknown universe.

I have no fear of death but a fear of leaving my family and friends behind. Some people with views of heaven may find peace in the idea that one day in the afterlife they will meet up with their friends and family again. I have have such views. Life is over once you die. Your body has borrowed the energy to survive and once you die, that's it, your time is up!

For me, the thought of the death of my body and all its functions is something that I wish to be comfortable with. Non-existence terrifies me, but at the same time I see no need to believe in any form of an afterlife, simply because we do not know if one exists, and all science does is reaffirm this viewpoint - that we do not know.

Having said that, most pre-Enlightenment thinkers, mystics, religious types, etc., seem to have been able to access to this unknowable realm of the afterlife, or at least some spiritual plain that existed, for them at least, and was tangible and knowable. This can certainly be seen from most ancient Gnostic texts. The Enlightenment ushered in the slow destruction of this knowledge, and how to attain it.

Does that mean that I have a belief in an afterlife, no! On this point I would say that I am Agnostic - it is unknowable. I do not believe in placing stock in beliefs that are contained within any religious system or forms of Soteriology. On that note then, I try to live a good life, experience all that can be experienced (within reason of course), and give my children the best start in life that I can give them. I believe that this can be achieved without the need for a belief in an afterlife.

What we do know, however, is that life exists. We also know that the possibility of life existing is extremely improbable. Science also readily admits that it only knows about 1% (if that) of all that can be known about the universe. Therefore, for me at least, there must be a reason for our existence. But what that reason is, is certainly open to debate.

Thank you for this wonderful question/offering. I have very much appreciated the opportunity to reflect on this and to consider the perspectives of my fellow Jedi. I have attached a few thoughts of mine. I would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thank you.

It ends rather abruptly...I suddenly realized I should probably stop writing.:dry:

MTFBWY

Let me try that again...


Who am I.docx

First of all, thank you for this offering/question/reflection. I have appreciated the opportunity to reflect further and to “hear” the take of my fellow Jedi.

As for my belief, I have a hard time defining what we even mean by death. Perhaps the reason I’m having difficulty with it is because I have difficulty defining the boundaries of “me.” This is true for me whether I view the matter spiritually or scientifically (to me there is little difference between the two). As I see it, the heart of the matter is the perennial “Who am I?”

I have a strong science background, and I accept the concept of the Big Bang (whether it’s cyclical, or how it might end, is irrelevant to my larger point). If this is true, then I am the energy/matter of the Big Bang in human form. The elements that make up my body were formed in the core of stars and released with their “death.” The elements that made up that star came from the primordial energy/matter of the Big Bang. The universe has been on a giant journey of expansion and complexification; I am just one of the more recent forms it has taken. If my identity is centered on the Universe and its grand adventure, it's Hero's Adventure, then I will still be very much alive when this particular form vanishes.

My body is not as solid as it seems. Every minute I replace approximately 1 billion cells! Every three days I have replaced every cell in my skin. Every second, I create 2 million new red blood cells. Every seven years I’ve replaced every cell in my body. The molecules that comprise those cells are being replaced more frequently, and the atoms comprising those molecules more frequently still. My pieces are constantly changing, and yet “I” remain. Whatever “I” am, I am not these bits and pieces. In some way, I seem to be a pattern that perpetuates itself through a continual flux of mass/energy—the same way a vortex retains its identity through a constant flux of water; the same way a wave travels through its medium though the individual physical components do not move with it. The energy, the pattern, lives, recruiting new matter and moving on. Who am “I”? What is the pattern, the energy of me? What will go on?

Even as I write this, “I” cannot survive alone. My body is a community of cells that has made a living together. We co-exist with a microbiome, distinct communities of bacteria, living symbiotically. I rely on oxygen released either from plants or photosynthetic microorganisms. The carbon dioxide I exhale was generated from that salmon I just ate, who obtained it from, say, krill, who obtained it from phytoplankton, who obtained it from the atmosphere, which obtained it from the discharge of a volcano, which obtained it from superheated seafloor moving under plate tectonics, which was created by the compression of calcium carbonate shells from sea creatures, who obtained it from zooplankton, who obtained it from the atmosphere, which obtained it from the respiration of a koala, who obtained it from the leaves of a tree, which obtained it from the atmosphere… And the atmosphere originally got it from the supernova “death” of a star, which got the raw materials from the Big Bang! The stars "die," other sentient beings "die" for my food, even my own cells "die" to allow the larger context to thrive. Life and death seem to me to be joined at the hip.

"I" cannot live without everyone and everything else. So who am I?

To consider it more philosophically, how can I know my identity without you to serve as a comparison? It seems to me that we live in a social cosmos, a universe lived at the interface—expansion/contraction, attraction/repulsion, fission/fusion, yin/yang. Life/death? “I” am a holon…a holon of the Force.

My point, I suppose, is that “I” am the Force, as far as I can tell. So when this particular pattern that the Force has taken moves on, I, the Force, have not died.

Funny, I've stumbled across 2 outlooks in the past couple days revolving around a non-theistic view of death.

http://imgur.com/un1qr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lxQ9g.jpg

1. What is your belief about death and an afterlife?
I believe that after death I cease to exist. My physical body (and by extention, my brain and mind) no longer function. I no longer have a personality, I no longer have memory, I no longer have consciousness. I think it is possible that there exists some kind of energy within myself that is released, to be joined in a kind of collective energy, or entered into another living thing, or just released into the surrounding area to do nothing in particular. But no matter how I look at it, what I perceive as myself will be gone, never to return.

2. Would you apply the atheistic view of death in some way to yours?
I guess that is *an* atheistic view of death. The beauty of atheism is it is simply the lack of belief in god(s). There is no doctrine associated with atheism, ergo, there is no one particular "atheistic" view of death. So long as the death/afterlife is bereft of Gods, it is technically atheistic. But I understand what you mean- when people say "atheistic death" they often are referring to the type of death many famous atheists espouse: a death where there is absolutely nothing after it. Your sentience doesn't survive your physical death

3. If you did, how might you apply it?
My view of death is similar to the "classical" atheistic view of death, except I do play with the idea that there is a general energy to oneself, independent of consciousness or sentience, that moves on from the body. Not that that point matters much- it still isn't what you would think of as you, it's just energy that was dwelling within you.

But anyway, since leaving a theistic idea of memories, personality, awareness, etc surviving death, I, like you, have noticed I have more motivation to do things in this life, as it is the only one I believe I am given. It also strengthened my interest in human rights. When I was a theist, I kind of just went along with the flow- if my life sucks, don't worry too much about it, heaven will be amazing/I will have other chances. If I see injustice, don't worry about it, God will exact justice on the wrongdoers in the afterlife. It makes people complacent and lazy.

If you believe in a kind of universal consciousness after death, and feel that that hinders you from experiencing the benefits a "purely" atheistic view of death may give you, I recommend thinking about what you have in this life. For instance, I believe something within me *could* be reanimated into another living being after death. But it won't be me. It won't have the memories, experience, and knowledge I have accumulated in this life, and it might not be born in such privileged conditions (1st world country, access to an education, access to good food and doctors, relative equality, lack of hindering medical or mental conditions, etc.) I need to make the most out of what I have in this life, because I won't be able to do anything with what I've learned and accumulated after I'm dead. This is my one and only chance to help the world in my own small way, this is my one and only chance to experience the things I want to experience in this world. If I don't work to educate or help others, there will never again be another me to do so! If I don't go snowboarding in this life, I'll never get to experience it! Or beer pong! Or immersing myself in a foreign culture where English is not the official language! Or learning to ballroom dance! Do the chacha!

I also remember it goes both ways. One of my regrets in life was never meeting Christopher Hitchens. He lived less than 15 miles away from me, but I never went to see him at any event. Now he's gone, so my opportunity has vanished, never to come back.

Alright, getting a bit off topic. But I hope that helps, and wasn't too dark or depressing. :laugh: I personally don't find it that depressing. Like Mark Twain said: "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." I have all these opportunities in this life, but if I don't fulfill some, it'll be okay. It's not like it's going to matter to me once I'm dead.

The True Path

Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.

Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"

Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going."

With his words, Ikkyu had revealed the path so clearly that Ninakawa smiled and passed away.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/magazine/29wwln-lede-t.html?ref=magazine



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