Rites and Ceremony (aka Pomp and Circumstance)

Since when do we as Jedi establish that there are rites based on a specified number of other faiths?

We are Jedi. I find the injection of terminology specific to other religions is disturbing. There are no limits upon rites to Jedi as those specified. Jedis are such because they choose to be such.

We are about the simplicities of humanology, not to be influenced or limited by injections, of any kind. The energy which we call \"The Force\" is not defined or determined by doctrine, it is established by fact, physics and instinct. It is not \"faith based\".

Those who become Jedi choose to become sensative to energy, not limit it to \"rites\" and bases of faith.

May the Force be with You All.

Arcturus

look brother, the rites are more for people to get together in groups to talk about relations. not to join in clicks to move on each other. this is to help newcomers and others to relate so they can get closer to the force, in ways others find easy without religion. thats all brother, do not get upset at the fact of others trying to relate in groups. i understand were you are coming from, and at first i agreed, but now i look at it i dont see any harm in letting people have these groups to help them. if it will help think of this a school and these are clubs. we as a temple can also not let these people put away their faith just because they are in this temple. remember not everyone here is clergy and they still practice their other religions. if you feel that what i just said doesnt mean anything, or you can not understand. than i would suggest pm Cardinal Whiteman. MTFBWY brother.

Arcturus wrote:

Since when do we as Jedi establish that there are rites based on a specified number of other faiths?

We are Jedi. I find the injection of terminology specific to other religions is disturbing. There are no limits upon rites to Jedi as those specified. Jedis are such because they choose to be such.

We are about the simplicities of humanology, not to be influenced or limited by injections, of any kind. The energy which we call \"The Force\" is not defined or determined by doctrine, it is established by fact, physics and instinct. It is not \"faith based\".

Those who become Jedi choose to become sensative to energy, not limit it to \"rites\" and bases of faith.

May the Force be with You All.

Arcturus

I'm sorry you feel that way gentle arcturus....but the rites are not by any means limiting at all...in fact we can add to them at any time. We are not, as a group or organization, about any one aspect of life or faith except that which is displayed and prescribed in the doctrine. From there it is for each member to decide for themself.

And your interjection regarding Jediism not being about faith really only applies to you...or those who feel similarly...of which I most certainly am not one. Jediism IS faith based for me and for a very large group here in the order.

If I had to say so...you are of the pure land rite. But that's really for you to decide. However, to make such a blanket statement as \"It is not \"faith based\".\" Is not only grossly inaccurate for so many here, but it is also quite simply rude.

and this statement \"Those who become Jedi choose to become sensative to energy, not limit it to \"rites\" and bases of faith.\"
Is also quite inaccurate as well. That certainly applies to you and rightly so, however each person's chooses Jediism for there own reasons, some of which do not at all include an \"energy proven through physics or experience.\"

\"We are about the simplicities of humanology\"...Again quite a generalization and again inaccurate. We are about love. We are about Peace. We are about a simple life led through balance with the Force, Whatever that may be to each person.

Beyond these tried and true fundamentals, we are not about anything. Each member is about something for themselves.

I completely understand your concern and of course appreciate your position, however it is quite inappropriate to say to another person \"Thats not what we believe\" unless it really conflicts with something in the doctrine, as laid out in the doctrine here \"Jedi Believe In the importance of individual believers determining evil influences and policies within their chosen faith group, and advocate for their correction\"...And Rites certainly don't do that.

So then...perhaps we should also have a Humanist Rite?

Arcturus wrote:

We are about the simplicities of humanology, not to be influenced or limited by injections, of any kind. The energy which we call \"The Force\" is not defined or determined by doctrine, it is established by fact, physics and instinct. It is not \"faith based\".

Those who become Jedi choose to become sensative to energy, not limit it to \"rites\" and bases of faith.

Arcturus

Br.Arcturus, I also can understand your concerns. All too often institutions, religions, regimes... have missused their power and kept their followers in an iron grip with rules and regulations. History has proved this. But this does not mean that the future does not hold something new in store, life would be very bleak if it didn`t. If the Doctrine were seen as a set of rules then I would agree. But no, the Doctrine is intended as a platform, as basis, from which everyone starts to develop and express themselves in their own unique way. The Jedi are not made for the Doctrine, but the Doctrine is made for the Jedi. We are given a unique opportunity here.

Arcturus, the previous three Master are correct in their replies to your statement. The path of the Force is not the same jouney for each Jedi. For some, it is faith based. For others, it is not. You must remember, my friend, that this is a church. We have ministers that are able to perform ceremonies and rites. Though all Jedi, there are select groups of Jedi that these individuals are more directly connected with due to their faith or beliefs. That is why we have these rites. Re-center yourself and focus inward. All is well and thank you for expressing yourself and enlightening many as to your particular views on the Force. I'm sure it helped paint a bigger picture for someone. May the Force be with you.

what i find happens is some who choose the Path of a Jedi, are far too caught up in the way the fictional Jedi are in the movies. when those same few find that there is actually a \"real\" religion, they are confused as to why this is, as in the movies there was no religious connotations. for those who feel this way, it is indeed best to ask someone of the Pure Land Jedi Rite for direction or clairification as those of the Pure Land Jedi Rite have no other core beliefs other than Jediism, The Force or The Living Force.

I have to chirp in here for a moment and agree with the Masters. Br. Arcturus, I do feel that your question and point is a valid thought. I am not one for lectures,etc., but will say this. For each and every member that comes here, each is searching for their own path, their own wants, their own commitment. With the openess of the \"Rites\", we have opened everything we can to everyone, no matter how they believe and this allows a fellowship with a common belief in Jedism, how ever we may come to find it. I hope that through our openess, you will find where you are comfortable.

My fellow Jedi,

It was not my intent to appear angry, nor was it to offend any other Jedi's faith in another religion. That's the trouble with the printed word, it lacks inflection! :lol:

*please read as though the inflection is as I usually am, calm and logical with a dash of quisical amusement*

Perhaps I am confused on the definition of rite as it applies in this context.

From yourdictionary.com

\"rite definition
n.
1. The prescribed or customary form for conducting a religious or other solemn ceremony: the rite of baptism.
2. A ceremonial act or series of acts: fertility rites.
3. The liturgy or practice of a branch of the Christian church.\"

I was focusing on definition 1 or 2 (thinking Catholic Last Rites) when it would appear the intent of these rites is actually definition 3 (which still directly references a major religion). In that case, I would be wrong in my understanding of the applicability of the term...from a certain point of view.

If the use of the term rite is applied to provide direction for those who are seeking to enhance their primary religion with Jediism, then perhaps the term \"rite\" in and of itself is misleading and should be replaced with some less easily confused word (not directly linkable to another religion), like associations or some other such neutral word.




There are many who find it offensive to have elements of their religion struck or referred to negatively, but there are also those whose non-beliefs are just as strong and trigger the same response when the beliefs of others are placed (or appear to be placed) upon them.

Jediism (of any temple or website) is different, while loosely based in fiction it is a far cry from a Star Wars fanatic website that doles out certificates of Jedi Knight to anybody who wants one. Anyone that spends even a small amount of time in the chat room will figure that out. That is why it draws people.

You don't see blog entries like, \"In E-2 SW-AOTC, scene six, minute five-when...\" or \"Yoda vs. Obi Wan\" \"What if Darth Vader had lived?\" stuff. The closest I've really seen to fan type stuff here is the garb and the application of titles (most of which aren't used anyway) and both of which are appropriate.


May the Force (or what/whomever:silly: ) be with You All


Arcturus,
Jedi Knight

Perhaps the word \"sect\" would fit better?

Defined by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary,
Sect: \,sekt\ n [ME secte, fr. MF & LL & L; MF, group, sect, fr. LL secta organized ecclesiastical body, fr. L, way of life, class of persons, fr. sequi to follow -- more at SUE] (14c) 1 a: a dissenting or schismatic religious body; esp: one regarded as extreme or heretical b: a religious denomination 2 archaic: SEX {so is all her ~ --Shak.} 3 a: a group adhearing to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b: PARTY c: FACTION

Justice wrote:

Perhaps the word \"sect\" would fit better?

Defined by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary,
Sect: \,sekt\ n [ME secte, fr. MF & LL & L; MF, group, sect, fr. LL secta organized ecclesiastical body, fr. L, way of life, class of persons, fr. sequi to follow -- more at SUE] (14c) 1 a: a dissenting or schismatic religious body; esp: one regarded as extreme or heretical b: a religious denomination 2 archaic: SEX {so is all her ~ --Shak.} 3 a: a group adhearing to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b: PARTY c: FACTION

While the term Sect could certainly serve as a replacement...I don't see it necessary to do so. In this case we are merely using the term Rite to describe a group of faith/belief, very much like the Masons Who use the term rite similarly in so far as describing the different origins of there individual groups such as the Scottish Rite.

There are indeed many ways however to view words (one of my specialties as we all know by now) and I think that it is very important for us all to not limit our thinking based on words. As Arcturus has pointed out there is no chance for inflection, intonation, and the like when typing so each is impressed upon the text by the reader which is far opposite from the day to day conversations we are used to having.

Another thing to remember is that perhaps it is a good thing to have such things throughout the church as they do indeed cause folks to ask questions, which is the both the easiest and most fun path to learning (for both parties, the asker and askee).

Here are some thoughts from our friend Confucious regarding Rites.

\"Lead the people with administrative injunctions and put them in their place with penal law, and they will avoid punishments but will be without a sense of shame. Lead them with excellence and put them in their place through roles and ritual practices, and in addition to developing a sense of shame, they will order themselves harmoniously.\" (Analects II, 3)

The above explains an essential difference between legalism and ritualism and points to a key difference between European / American and East Asian societies. Confucius argues that under law, external authorities administer punishments after illegal actions, so people generally behave well without understanding reasons why they should; whereas with ritual, patterns of behavior are internalized and exert their influence before actions are taken, so people behave properly because they fear shame and want to avoid losing face. In this sense, 禮 is an ideal form of social norm.

\"Rite\" (Lǐ) stands here for a complex set of ideas that is difficult to render in European languages. The Chinese character for \"rites\" previously had the religious meaning of \"sacrifice\" (the character 禮 is composed of the character 示, which means \"altar\", to the left of the character 曲 placed over 豆, representing a vase full of flowers and offered as a sacrifice to the gods; cf. Wenlin). Its Confucian meaning ranges from politeness and propriety to the understanding of each person's correct place in society. Externally, ritual is used to distinguish between people; their usage allows people to know at all times who is the younger and who the elder, who is the guest and who the host and so forth. Internally, they indicate to people their duty amongst others and what to expect from them.

Internalisation is the main process in ritual. Formalised behaviour becomes progressively internalised, desires are channelled and personal cultivation becomes the mark of social correctness. Though this idea conflicts with the common saying that \"the cowl does not make the monk\", in Confucianism sincerity is what enables behaviour to be absorbed by individuals. Obeying ritual with sincerity makes ritual the most powerful way to cultivate oneself. Thus \"Respectfulness, without the Rites, becomes laborious bustle; carefulness, without the Rites, become timidity; boldness, without the Rites, becomes insubordination; straightforwardness, without the Rites, becomes rudeness\" (Analects VIII, 2). Ritual can be seen as a means to find the balance between opposing qualities that might otherwise lead to conflict.

Ritual divides people into categories and builds hierarchical relationships through protocols and ceremonies, assigning everyone a place in society and a form of behaviour. Music, which seems to have played a significant role in Confucius' life, is given as an exception as it transcends such boundaries, 'unifying the hearts'.

Although the Analects promotes ritual heavily, Confucius himself often behaved otherwise; for example, when he cried at his preferred disciple's death, or when he met a fiendish princess (VI, 28). Later more rigid ritualists who forgot that ritual is \"more than presents of jade and silk\" (XVII, 12) strayed from their master's position.