addiction: jediism vs. 12 step programs

hello,

i am new to TOTJO and plan to join after learning all i can.
i recently began thinking of ways we as a society (americans, or western culture) have come to deal with addictions, in terms of what constitutes the most effective method of overcoming, or treating them as best as possibile. if someone is caught driving under the influence of alcohol, a possible consequence could be MANDATORY aa meetings. Contrary to my own beliefs, aa teaches that one should admit his or her powerlessness over their addiction, and submit their will over to a higher power. This, to me, is a problem, since if one were to choose to quit on his/her own behalf, wouldn't he/she already have some measure of power, or at least, exist in a phase where power were just barely being manifested? I am not questioning the higher power, as obviously, after all there are those who will or will not feel the influence of The Force in the first place, and since there would be many who would be unable to sence its influence or value, they would be the ones who would fall off the path path toward healing. it's the powerlessness part with which i have an issue.

of course, there is a backstory here, since i too have had problems with alcohol... until i realised that am in control of my own wants. since then i have realised that addiction is more of a choice, meaning that i have every sort of power over it, as opposed to if i were somehow powerless over it. so, here i am, with a belief in the purpose and beauty of the TOTJO, yet i somehow need to know how to understand the beliefs of 12 step programs, since i do not understand the logic or if it's right for me. it seems that to me, instead of treating the addictions themselves, some should be treated for the underlying mental illness that may exist. (i suffer from a few, mainly anxiety and panic disorder) i think that the teachings of TOTJO may have more to offer than any program which has only as much knowledge as the time of creation or the era of knowledge available. I am still dealing with addiction issues, and soon my own will should overcome primal urges related to addiction.

i welcome any comments, and i hope to hear from any Council members.

MTFBWY
Hanbul Lantem

Hi. First of all, welcome. This is quite interesting. I don't have any experience personally with addiction, but I know several people who had different ones. I believe, if I understand you correctly, we're on a similar page here. I have seen that AA tends to say we're powerless over the addictions we have. I feel like this way is telling people they don't have to be responsible. And i just went to Google to find this and it's step one. The site for the program has the first step saying how people with addictions have "lost their power of choice". It calls these things, BTW, 12 Steps to Serenity. I think the program here is a great one for taking your own power back. I won't speak for everyone since I'm not able, yet that's what I decided to learn from it along with many other things. I personally think that's more effective, yet it's your choice. May the Force be with you.
Leena

There is a lot one can say that is positive about AA. I've had experiences with AA. My mother went through the 12 steps.... Even though she never really drank.. Weird, I know! My knee-jerk reaction is to say that AA is too steeped in self pity and the view of people in AA is that everyone is an addict, a powerless one. If you quit drinking, but you found love, most people in AA would say you've just traded one addiction for another. The mindset is that dependance transfers into all aspects of life.. But we're people! Who among hasn't been dependent on someone or something? Are we supposed to live our lives completely self sufficient and alone?

I use marijuana quite frequently. When I got caught one day smoking with a friend in my car, I was ordered to go to addiction counseling for a determined amount of time, since I was still under 21 by one year.. My buddy just got a misdemeanor ticket. Part of that was attending Marijuana Anonymous. It really just seemed so pitiful to me. There would be people who were 90 days sober, then they'd have a moment of weakness and have to start all over. I can understand how cannabis can effect one's life to a point where they look back at stupid things they've done and realize that they could have had a better life without cannabis. Maybe they needed treatment! But to say that they harmed people and need to make amends for the things they did under the influence of cannabis... That to me seems disproportionate! They've learned to blame cannabis for their own shortcomings, it seemed.

So, I guess, in conclusion to my rambling: Do I agree with AA wholeheartedly? No! Is it a successful form of addiction treatment? For many, yes! Do I agree that saying your powerless and taking blame away from yourself is healthy? Not really! In the end, moderation is what living in an abundant society is all about. One should strive to know their own boundaries and discipline themselves accordingly!

I'm not too sure about these ?A groups. I used to have a porn addiction. I went to a SA (sexaholics anonymous) group. There were some good things about it, but it never really got down the deeper reason behind the addiction. I was getting ready to leave when a guy came up to me and mentioned another addiction group that was not associated with SA. I gave it a try and loved it.

It was a Christian group that actually got down to the science and reasoning of addiction. We would switch back and forth between religious reading and reading by people like Dr. Patrick Carnes, who is a leading researcher and psychologist in the field.

Anytime someone had a relap ("fell off the wagon", if you will) the first question that was asked was, "what were the circumstances surrounding your fall?" They would actually ask you to evaluate what you were doing before and what drove you to fall. And then you would talk with your group leader or others and together find ways to avoid that situation again.

This group was far off the traditional ?A groups and it worked flawlessly for me. Yes, you did have to start the counting of days all over again after you fell off, but they didn't focus on that. They focused on the lessons learned during your fall, which made you feel a whole lot better instead of making you feel down.

But who knows, maybe I had went to an SA group that had no idea what they were doing. Unfortunately, it left a bad taste in my mouth concerning ?A groups. But if it's your thing and it helps, then by all means, go for it. I don't look down on people who do because even the group I attend isn't for everyone. It's all just personal preference.

So when you're caught drink-driving, you're considered alcoholic?

Also, any addiction to cannabis is purely psychological. Sugar and fatty foods are more addictive.

I also find it strange that such groups would tell the attendees they are powerless. They sell alcohol everywhere. If you're powerless, how are you expected not to buy alcohol? It's not as if you had to go to specialized shops for it.

Hadi Apollos wrote: I'm not too sure about these ?A groups. I used to have a porn addiction. I went to a SA (sexaholics anonymous) group. There were some good things about it, but it never really got down the deeper reason behind the addiction. I was getting ready to leave when a guy came up to me and mentioned another addiction group that was not associated with SA. I gave it a try and loved it.

It was a Christian group that actually got down to the science and reasoning of addiction. We would switch back and forth between religious reading and reading by people like Dr. Patrick Carnes, who is a leading researcher and psychologist in the field.

Anytime someone had a relap ("fell off the wagon", if you will) the first question that was asked was, "what were the circumstances surrounding your fall?" They would actually ask you to evaluate what you were doing before and what drove you to fall. And then you would talk with your group leader or others and together find ways to avoid that situation again.

This group was far off the traditional ?A groups and it worked flawlessly for me. Yes, you did have to start the counting of days all over again after you fell off, but they didn't focus on that. They focused on the lessons learned during your fall, which made you feel a whole lot better instead of making you feel down.

But who knows, maybe I had went to an SA group that had no idea what they were doing. Unfortunately, it left a bad taste in my mouth concerning ?A groups. But if it's your thing and it helps, then by all means, go for it. I don't look down on people who do because even the group I attend isn't for everyone. It's all just personal preference.

LOL. Oddly enough, I've also been to an SA meeting as well. I was visiting my dad when I was a teenager and he caught me looking at porn through the history. Then made me go to an SA meeting with him... Wow! It felt so very wrong to me! These men were afraid of their own sexuality. During the meeting, a woman who was lost walked in. They all seemed to jump at the same time and say, "This is a mens only meeting!!" It seemed so depraved to me, to sit there and watch these men struggle with their own sex drive. They felt guilty about their own desires. Guilt can also be an addiction and it's one that can perpetuate other addictions. It turns the wheel of the viscous cycle for a lot of people. So, while I feel seeking help for any addiction isn't a bad thing, it is also a fact that most of these meetings are not run by people who have training in addiction counseling. It's a support group. A place where you can share stories and gain a sense of feeling that you're not alone in your struggle.. Some meetings, though, try to make it therapy. Some even allow cross-talk which is expressly forbidden in the Anonymous 12 step programs. Overall, realize that it is a support group. It's not group counseling, nor is it psychotherapy, though one could possibly benefit from it alone.. I wouldn't recommend it being a sole form of treatment.

Luckily, the group I talked about (the one I joined that helped me) is a combination of study, support, and group therapy. Everything was evened out. And the best part, there was another group at the same location that was for women who had men suffering from porn/sex addiction. Occasionally, the leaders of that group would come to one of our meetings and show us the other side of the coin (what's going on from our spouces point of view. So the groups are very professional and very enlightening. The instructor from our men's group is an actual trained therapist/psychologist who actually studied under Dr. Patrick Carnes. So that REALLY helped in people getting over their addiction and in making people feel comfortable. You never felt striped of your power or felt low on the totem pole. They made sure that you always felt like you were indeed a human being who suffers from failures, but learns from them. This is how all addiction groups SHOULD be.

AA is a religion. It's a True Believer religion. There is no logic involved. I'm using AA as a generic term for 12-Step programs since it originated there. In The US several state and federal appeal courts have ruled that it's unconstitutional for a state or the federal government to force anyone to participate in AA for any reason, including as part of a sentence for a criminal offense.

If anyone is being forced into a 12-Step group against their will please let me know and I will get you legal assistance. I'd be just as disgusted if someone were sentenced to joining TOTJO and going through our lessons or if they were forced to attend Catholic Mass every Sunday or go to Wednesday night Baptist Bible study.

If a person wants to go to AA and feels it's right for them - great. Being forced is a crime against Justice and Jedi will not tolerate it. 12-Step is not right for many and for some it's downright harmful. Yes it does help some but it's not a one size fits all solution that it's somehow thought to be by too many.

The same dose of insulin I injected this morning keeps me healthy but chances are it would kill you. (Besides, force someone against their will they're of the same opinion still.)

This is a quick post and not near all my thoughts on this subject. I'll revisit this over the weekend.

wow, thank you everyone for all the responses.

i guess i lost my own train of thought when i started writing in the first place, but i meant to say that i know what the 12 steps are, and have family members who have been through them so it's not really lack of knowledge that leads to my confusion. i am glad it helps some but i think the rate of failure is so high and that makes it sad that 12 steps are often the first suggested form of treatment for addictions.

i guess i was kind of making a duel point in saying that 1) in my opinion, a program aimed at helping to fight addiction SHOULD start with a dose of self empowerment. imagine if the first step said "we admitted to ourselves that we have the power to take back control over this substance/behavior which has caused so much suffering, and we then knew that are lives could be managed once again."
(of course i know there are SOME types of programs like that, especially amongst some groups in psychiatry)

and 2) luckily i have never had this happen to me, but it is wrong to force a religious program upon someone who has made a mistake, and broken a law. of course, i never really thought of 12 step programs as religions, but it makes sense, as they say "you must turn over your entire will to your higher power", which means it is a religion where logic is not required, and not only is that part sad, it definately goes against seperation of church and state.

what i had forgotten to mention earlier is that even within the first hour of learning about Jediism, i seemed to already have a sense of self reliance and self empowerment and self discipline growing within me, knowing that i have to be responsible for my own actions and escpecially my own emotions. having anxiety disorder and the occasional panic attack is a daily suffering that i know can be largely controlled on my own. then i should reach out to others for their help when i have exhausted the extent of my own capabilities. at that point, in my opinion, it is acceptable to admit weakness, but never total powerlessness.

admitedly, i failed to realise the fundamental idea to this topic is that what works for one could harm another, and we are all different. there is a certain beauty to that if you really stop to ponder it. however, i thought the topic itself would spark a lively train of thought. and i can feel at peace when i am most open minded and tolerant.

May The Force Be With You
- Hanbul Lantem

I should say also that in no way would I promote TOTJO as addiction counseling. If you have a problem, I would suggest getting outside help. TOTJO is great for finding a new start on life, but I look at it as the beginning of your/my personal relationship with the Force. The rest is up to you! TOTJO and it's members are here do all that we can to help but I don't believe anyone among us is an addiction specialist. So, I hope that whatever you do, you do what is right for you and may the Force be there to guide you in all things.