Occupy Wallstreet Movement

'It is time for a reevaluation of values!' Tom cheered, striking a pose not unlike a famed Nobel Peace Prize winner. Everyone gave him a long stare that let him know he'd probably gotten the quote wrong.

'Nothing wrong with that, though.' James agreed, 'The way things are going now, everyone seems to have the attitude of 'I earned this, so I have to keep it' combined with 'Look out for number 1'. When I was growing up, my mom's family taught me that no man is an island, and my dad taught me that with money and power, you've also gotta assume a lot of responsibility.'

Taro nodded in sage agreement.

'After all, at the club, we do all work hard, but so do the bartenders, and the managers have to play their role, and then the owner of the club is the one who manages rights to lease a building, as well as arrangements for all of us and the advertising and clothing. It would be wrong if WE were the only ones to keep our money, and either way, it's only because of our customers that the club keeps going and we can continue to make that money.'

James pulled a face at such a typically Japanese answer coming from one of his coworkers. 'In America, guys make money by investing it in other companies, then selling their shares when the price is high and by reaping large interest sums. So, really, they're not working for their money, per se... in fact, the motto goes 'Don't work hard for your money, make your money work hard for you.' And, either way, when you've got more than your fair share, you bear a greater responsibility for the society as a whole.'

'Such as politics, Lock-kun?' Tensora-san asked, leaning against the wall and scribbling in his ledger, 'In perfect enactment of Aristotle's vision, the lower classes must spend all their time devoted to menial tasks, just to earn their way. And after that, what time do they have to think, or engage in politics, or educate themselves? None. They become disenfranchised -- I must also note that 'franchise' is one of the paradigms of the Jedi -- and pass that on to their children, who start to grow up not knowing and not caring about politics. The rich, on the other hand, have time to watch the news, understand what's going on, and their children learn from them, just as well. And, of course, as only the very rich have the leisure and time to engage and vote, they become the majority, or they foster connections with political parties, and then laws are put through that don't benefit the people as a whole -- either on purpose, or because the masses are so disenfranchised, they simply don't realize it. It's a cycle and a system, and any student of social justice will tell you that in a heartbeat.'

'Yeah, it's easy for YOU guys to say that -- you all come from a 'We' culture. America is more of an 'I' culture.' James groused. Tensora-san raised his eyebrows, glanced at Tom -- whom had gone full-out into a Martin Luther King Jr impression -- and then back to James.

'How did the Jeff Goldblum character put it in the first Jurassic Park movie? 'They were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they SHOULD.' Just because you CAN make a ton of money by investing and not really do any hard work -- and that's what they can and do do -- it's not the morally right option. Don't activists for worldwide philanthropy often ask people 'Do you really NEED those hundred dollar shoes, when that hundred dollars could help pay for a school in Uganda' or something like that.' And that was Akitaro, somehow managing to sound like he was criticizing his lover, even if they were technically on the same side.

'Perhaps Tomathy put it best...' Tensora-san mused, 'It IS time for a revolution of values. A revolution that this protest might just be endorsing, if you look beneath the surface.'

IT's misguided because it wants a socialist model of living that has never worked in history, just ask the EU. It fails to take in to account the most important part of any mode of governance, Human nature. That's why socialism inevitably fails.

the EU's doing perfectly fine thanks. And a lot better off with a socialist system than it did before... Do not mix bureaucracy and socialism. One is a problem the other isn't. As to your comment about human nature, I think it applies to (real) communism. going the extra mile has to be rewarding, otherwise no-one does it. Socialism does not prevent that

I'd like to point out that in the 50s, the max tax rate in the US was above 90%, and I hardly believe the gvt considered itself socialist at that time.


The real problem, the real reason for the demos is that the banks and insurance companies were fucking around ( some of the practices were absolutely mad ) and that it is normal people with normal jobs who lost everything, not the banks.

***EDIT****

To each his own. I really don't see the EU as doing fine right now as their in more risk of sovereign dealt than we are right now. But again, to each his own.

Eurozone external debt: 13.72 trillion USD (2010)
US external debt: 13.98 trillion USD (2010)

Eurozone has more people, lower GDP, many social programmes and for some reason less debt than the US. Ah and the euro is doing quite fine compared to the US dollar. Go figure.

EDIT: I do not pretend to know everything about the US and EU economies but from what I've learned I just posted some key economic aspects of both. I posted about those only because others had done so before me. If you want to respond to my post then please focus more on what I said after, because that is far more important.

ren wrote: the EU's doing perfectly fine thanks. And a lot better off with a socialist system than it did before... Do not mix bureaucracy and socialism. One is a problem the other isn't. As to your comment about human nature, I think it applies to (real) communism. going the extra mile has to be rewarding, otherwise no-one does it. Socialism does not prevent that

I am an economically far right extreme liberal. That is to say I believe completely in the role of free markets and the freedom of choice for each individual.

For those of you who may not be aware of the current crises and say that capitalism doesn't work well I just have to say "Capitalism?! What Capitalism?!!" I see no capitalism in what is happening!

Government bails out banks - not capitalist.

Interventionist and socialist (Keynesian) economists base their theory on the formula of C+I+G+(X-M) = GDP. However they equate that GDP to equalling Economy. C+I+G+(X-M)=GDP BUT /= Economy. It tells you nothing about the state of the economy which leads exactly to problems such as this one.

This right-wing economist Peter Schiff predicted that there would be a recession.

The problem is that over the last decade it isn't 'real wealth' that has increased it is the availability of credit that has increased. It isn't the productive capacity that increased and lead to people being richer it was speculation that caused the value of stocks and real estate to increase and hence the illusion of wealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnekzRuu8wo

It is not just Greece that has a problem. Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain are all on the verge of collapse BECAUSE of socialism. Perhaps the greatest factor resulting in their decline is their lack of competitiveness on an international market. They are protected from competition by tariffs on external items (which the EU itself puts in place) and hence why should they bother competing?

They don't have to try hard, because they have no need to. That means that they become economically inefficient which is exposed when things get really bad. The weak links in their uncompetitive economy collapse.

But moving away from real world politics and onto my own thoughts.

I find it hard to understand how someone can morally stand in front of me and say "I will STEAL your wealth from you." Your money is forcibly taken away from you. If you have problems seeing this just ask yourself what happens if you decide not to pay your taxes

The arrogance of socialism is that the government knows how to spend your own money better than you do. Just read that sentence again. How can that possibly be true?!

I will not say whether America or any western country truly promotes freedom or whether or not there is a great deal of corruption that causes the system to function poorly.

But what I will say is that if a law is put in place that you do not agree with morally -and given the assumption that you would be considered as morally sound- then the law should not exist. With the highest morality I can possibly think of ever conceiving of in my mind being the right to freedom.

I doubt you would ever dream of stealing. But would you manipulate your income tax returns to avoid paying more tax?

Both are crimes but which one would make you be considered as immoral? Taking something that isn't yours? Or stopping someone from taking something that isn't theirs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-7oMOxPjNE

EDIT: I don't want this to turn into a massive argument so in case anyone is wondering my tone is not angry (in any posts) and please take no offence at what I say as I am not asking or stating anything maliciously. Lets keep this all respectful like it has been up until now.

ren wrote: Eurozone external debt: 13.72 trillion USD (2010)
US external debt: 13.98 trillion USD (2010)

Eurozone has more people, lower GDP,

That means that each person is poorer on average. In addition it also means that (given by the values you just posted) the Eurozone has a higher percentage debt than the US.

I'm not having a go or anything but I just thought I'd post and ask you how that supports your argument.

ren wrote: Eurozone external debt: 13.72 trillion USD (2010)
US external debt: 13.98 trillion USD (2010)

Eurozone has more people, lower GDP, many social programmes and for some reason less debt than the US. Ah and the euro is doing quite fine compared to the US dollar. Go figure.

On a side note, I wonder how much of the US debt is war related.

the external debt is not that of the government, but the debt privately held (by individuals or companies) to foreign creditors.

That means that each person is poorer on average.

Wealth isn't measured in gdp. eurozone citizens do not pay for their healthcare, do not pay for their university. start working late and finish early.

I find it hard to understand how someone can morally stand in front of me and say "I will STEAL your wealth from you." Your money is forcibly taken away from you. If you have problems seeing this just ask yourself what happens if you decide not to pay your taxes

No public education, no army, no police, no healthcare. You would effectively have to deal with hordes of violent diseased morons. The amount of BS bureaucracy I have to pay for is humongous and pisses me off, however, I'm still happy to pay it. Go to some place where the government has no money to pay anyone to do anything and you'll see if you like it better there.

And people who don't want to pay tax can go live elsewhere. They choose to remain in taxed places, because, strangely, these places are significantly better. Sure there's the odd ones out, tiny countries with loads of natural resources, but they are completely dependant on their export.

I was at OccupyPortland today. Probably one of the coolest things I've done. We marched through the city chanting and then reached the park where the occupation will take place. It was just such a positive experience, being around so many people who were so excited to finally stand up and let their voices be heard. It was like a population of depressed people had woken up from their stupor with a new, rejuvenated life in them. I felt it in myself as well. So exhilierating. After I left I was wishing everyone I ran into a wonderful day, something i SHOULD feel everyday. I guess I learned a lesson today

Unlike a number of you folks, I am left sitting on the sidelines and observing.
From what I have seen, this is an evolved form of anonymous campaigning that has been seen in the past (habbo, Scientology, wikileaks etc). I am not entirely surprised by the diverse messages being sent. The fundamental message seems clear enough that people have finally had enough with the actions of the last 10-20 years (30 years if you count the initial de-regulation brought on by Reagan) which have led us to this point.

However, as someone who can only sit to the side and watch (Even if I were in the states I could only be a spectator due to my job) I have to say I support any populist movement which acts to see that things change to benefit the whole and not a "privileged few".

I, therefore, put forth that such movements (Even if it were the Tea partiers) actually are an embodiment of the code in its own right. That being the selfless motion of helping others and acting for a greater betterment.

I understand entirely and agree that what they espouse may not be whats in the best interests for all. Certainly there are conflicting views on what is best for all.

What has to be kept in mind, I think is that what is important is that a bigger view of what is best for all not be left in the hands of bureaucracy and 11th hour budget battles. Unity in understanding and a consensus from all sides must be reached. If we shrug off the very notion of selflessness, we are left with consolidation of power and the misguided notion of "Peace through security".

Those are just my thoughts. I just hope that all sides of any political spectrum can at least come together to agree on something and push past partisanship for just one moment.