Does the end justify the means?
This question is one which can be considered on two levels, one the personal the second the social. On a personal personal level its ethics become very questionable, and on a social one in the case of governments for example cruelty inflicted upon the populace increases proportionally the possibility of rebellion. Yet we all know that laws, decrees, rulings and the such are carpet decisions that affect various groups in a society in different ways.
The author of the TOTJO simple and solemn oath, the liturgy book, holy days, the FAQ and the Canon Law. Ordinant of GM Mark and Master Jestor.
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I reckon I kind of fall into the consequentialist category. I believe that the ends justifies the means to a certain degree. I find that sometimes there is a need to break rules; if we did not none of us would be here. My view is that almost everything is situational. As long as nobody comes to any harm then do what you will.
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I agree that it is all situational. Tough love? Racial Cleansing?
It depends on what you deem as an adequate 'end' that you are trying to achieve.
I personally am one for integrity. The morality of both situations should be the same. If you wish to help people, achieve that without resorting to immoral means.
Think of the means as a foundation of your actions. Means are the why. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' if the means are rotten then your ends are a lie.
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An action that is necessary, and causes less suffering than good, could be called a "benevolent action".
One that produces more suffering, a "malevolent action". But if the need were great enough, perhaps it could still be tolerated. For example, a surgeon might amputate all the limbs of a patient to save them from death. This causes (probably) more suffering than good, but it is a necessary action.
And of course, an action that causes suffering without need could be termed "evil". Such actions I would think should be avoided.
Of course, the issue with such an outlook is its dependency on the situational judgement of an individual. It is by no means perfect, but this logic does a good job guiding my own actions.
So, yes, the end "can" justify the means, if that end is worthy. At least in my opinion.
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I am of two minds, because honestly, I have lived by "Harm None" for a while, but it just isn't possible. By the "Harm None" ethical standard, pretty much everything we do is wrong, if you think of it. I see Harm none in a different way than most, I guess. It does not just mean "as long as no person is hurt", it also means "as long as (The Planet) (Yourself) (The Divinity) is not hurt. I think it is near impossible for any person who has not devoted their life to such a path as they grow their own food and do not use a car/electronics/drink alcohol/etc.
While "Harm None" is the ETHICAL way, and is looked upon kindly, I can think of reasons I would see the end justifying the means. Sometimes in an unpopular fashion. It just isn't possible to not harm anyone. I tried that many times and it always ended in sorrows.
>>On a personal level..
As with the other responses, it is situational, but I think I'm thinking in a broader sense. If it only hurts yourself, and/or you do not care about the karmic affects, go for it, do as you please and to hell with any and everyone else. I'm from a family that preserves the individual before the whole. I despise it, so I learned to act the opposite way, giving before taking. But I can see where taking has gotten them, and let me tell you, its gotten them far in the terms of materialistic goals. I think it depends on the person's priorities. There seems to be a choice lately, excel amazingly at your career, or be a human being.
>>On a social level..
I dislike the fact, but in the end there are times you have to side with the darkness to bring forth light. I dislike the idea of the death penalty, but I also dislike the idea of having to pay to keep people alive and cared for when they are not supporting themselves sitting in our prisons. I dislike the idea of America being in debt, but I also dislike the idea of the drama and suffering that would come if we were to go bankrupt. I dislike the idea of Eminent Domain but I see the need for it as more roadways are required to continue growth. I dislike the way forests and natural areas are destroyed for human gain, but I cannot fault a person for it.
I don't know. I think it is above any one person to make a judgement on this. It is a moral decision each individual person must make on their own.
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sometimes yes the end result is justified by the course of action taken, sometimes no. whoever has to make that decision is the one that must shoulder the burden. good or bad
Through passion I gain strength and knowledge
Through strength and knowledge I gain victory
Through victory I gain peace and harmony
Through peace and harmony my chains are broken
There is no death, there is the force and it shall free me
Quotes:
Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
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J.L.Lawson,Master Knight, M.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
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The author of the TOTJO simple and solemn oath, the liturgy book, holy days, the FAQ and the Canon Law. Ordinant of GM Mark and Master Jestor.
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RyuJin wrote: definately situational...it's the whole "you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't" thing.
sometimes yes the end result is justified by the course of action taken, sometimes no. whoever has to make that decision is the one that must shoulder the burden. good or bad
Yes, taking responsibility for actions. If you're going to preach situational ethics, then that's an important point. I'm glad somebody thought to mention it.
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Apophis wrote: Captain Compassionate saved the passengers not only from murder, but from becoming murderers themselves. Unlike him, they would have killed in rage and suffered hell. He saved the criminal from becoming a mass murderer and even worse suffering. He himself generated vast karmic merit by acting with compassion. In this story it seems to be the motivation which justified the means which justified the end. We should be careful as to what we think to understand to be an end justified by its means.
I couldn't find a way to word that idea.
Some people do things we would think of as horrendous with a different outlook on them, and since we were not with the person at that time / we cannot know another's mind and heart with ease, we cannot say whether it was a justifiable thought that caused it.
Sheesh now I am wondering who is going to go out and stab someone and say it was with "compassion".
Sigh.
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1. intervention into an existing causality
In this situation I consider an existing arrangement of responsibility exists between participants, and so anything I do will be only to help, and never to hurt. It may mean I save less but unless the circumstances are fully understood I am not in a position to make judgements causing death - to take on the responsibility from others when I'm not involved and may not fully understand what is going on.... so its just help as many without hurting any and let those responsible remain responsible.
2. creating a causality
If I have created a situation where others are going to be hurt which cannot be resolved fully, but I am able to shape the result to minimize the hurt, then I am already integral to the chain of causality and so it becomes situational. Not a good situation to have created and the decisions made represent the responsibility you are accepting. It will involve judgements which depend on the level of knowledge about who and what is happening.
I apply the same rules more broadly to social decision making such as governments. It might be good to remember that pain and suffering is relative, in many cases can represent change and not some concept of failure or destruction. Governments by definition are to govern which means control and to control something means to shape its course against deviating infleunces. The nature of democracy is that the people choose who governs based on their position on the course that needs to be taken. Specialization is fundamental to complex societies and so while people give trust to that elected government to control society they also retain the ability to control government if its control is abused.
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