Texas Massacre and 214 other mass shootings in 2022

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Sometimes those weighty rights and responsibilities are neglected or not even made aware of. You CAN exhaust yourself with making every wrong you see right. It can even become so much of a focus that teaching can lead to your own children being ignored, our own children get neglected and the cycle begin again only a different flavor for someone else. Can we be breakers of habits and chains that once kept us? I think we can as humans. If I can get out of the hood, anyone can get out of any situation they are in now. That kinna makes me smile knowing this.

One of the advantages of the internet is that people can seek out their "tribe" online (this place is an example of such a phenomenon). The downsides, however, is that by seeking out our tribe online, it can make it much more comfortable to become disconnected from the "tribe" we would usually build by virtue of proximity, our neighborhood. So we are paradoxically more connected, and more disconnected, at the same time.

The other downside, is that if I happen to be a depressed, neglected teenage boy with a nihilistic worldview and simply require a gentle "nudge" to go buy a gun and kill everyone, finding "my tribe" online is probably a BAD thing. We do tend to seek out people who validate our own views, rather than challenge them.

I quoted Carlos because I feel he has a very valid point. Our first responsibilities is to our own children (and if we have none, to our closest family). It would be interesting to see if we can go back to being more involved in our neighbors' lives as well, a strong support group to help you out with chores, tough times, and general emotional support is priceless in keeping us from giving up on society and turning against it.

Ally: This is simply a human problem. When violence runs rampant around the world when “strong father figures” exist, then trying to pin the issue on males abandoning their children or women for not being enough for their children is nothing more than a way to cope with a problem you have no solutions for.


This, right here, is such an important statement. So much is blamed on "broken homes", whether the finger is pointed at men who aren't there enough or single mothers who have to pick up all the slack. But a parent cannot simply be there; like parenting is simply a role that anyone can fill as long as they're a warm body. You can have 2 parents and one or both of them could be abusive. Better then if one leaves so that their child doesn't have to witness that abuse or possibly normalize it. One parent can also be a narcissist, an alcoholic, suffering from depression, or just a career-minded individual that never has enough time. Also, as a parent, children have a lot of other influences such as friends and social media. It would be unwise to conclude that a parent is the one and only person the child chooses to go to or confide in. And on top of that, there are hormones and teenage crushes and rejections. You have to treat every child on an individual basis with no guarantee they will even open up to you because you're an adult. And children rebel. I have yet to see a perfect parent or a perfect child.

Manu: The other downside, is that if I happen to be a depressed, neglected teenage boy with a nihilistic worldview and simply require a gentle "nudge" to go buy a gun and kill everyone, finding "my tribe" online is probably a BAD thing. We do tend to seek out people who validate our own views, rather than challenge them.

Another great point. I think just like there are apps for everything there are also groups of people for everything. Perhaps, if the incel didn't have a group... with a label... a group with their own box... perhaps they might simply feel like a loser but not identify with a group that, instead of thinking of themselves as losers, blame women for not wanting them. Being a loser is preferable because a loser can get tired of losing and a loser can learn what it takes to win just like a level in a videogame. But once they say "I am an incel" that's when they are psychologically adopting a position that it's not their fault and there's not really anything they can do to change. This is like being handed a trophy for being the 302,031 ranked player. They stroke each other's ...egos and vent their sometimes violent frustrations out on other people. Again, incel is just one example of a type of person who maybe believes that life owes them things.

Carlos: What can a Jedi do?



https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-school-shooter-what-we-know

Salvador Ramos, the alleged gunman accused of shooting his grandmother and then targeting dozens of victims – ultimately killing 19 children and two adults – at a Texas elementary school was known to be a loner who had quit his job just weeks before unleashing his attack, Fox News has learned.

Ramos, an 18-year-old Uvalde, Texas, resident, legally purchased two AR-platform rifles on May 17 and May 20, and bought 375 rounds of ammunition on May 18, Texas Sen. John Whitmire told Fox affiliate KCPQ-TV, citing a briefing from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

...

Officials said that approximately 30 minutes before the events unfolded, Ramos wrote in a series of Facebook messages, "I’m going to shoot my grandmother," "I’ve shot my grandmother," and then: "I’m going to shoot an elementary school."

...

An Instagram account allegedly connected to Ramos featured disturbing photos, including one showing a high-capacity magazine. The Instagram account has since been taken down.

The same account allegedly sent alarming messages to a woman before the deadly attack. The first message, sent on May 12, asked, "You gonna repost my gun pics?" The woman was tagged in photos showing guns.

(he wasn't being bullied in school because he wasn't even in school at the time. This is something else)


At some point we have to understand that there is a gun culture in America that isn't the same in other countries with stricter regulations. These guns are literally the power to end the lives of many people. It is or should be well known that a lot of people respond to having their power taken away, by seeking power. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise people that many police officers were bullied. Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

So it is about guns but it's not about guns. The guns are just an avatar of the power that many people are seeking. Jedi should be advocates for balance (imho). The fact that a person can run out and buy 2 ASSAULT RIFLES... when we all know they're not about to go shoot up a forest and call that sport... these are weapons of war that are designed to kill other human beings. Period. And if we cannot be honest about that then I don't know where that leaves us.

Now it is my understanding that army personnel are not able to open or conceal carry on base unless they are law enforcement. Military bases also have lists of guns that you're not allowed to have which include assault weapons and short barrel shotguns, rifles, and silencers. For normal gun owners, I get it. There's nothing wrong as long as you are responsible. Me and Obama are not trying to take your guns. However... there is a dark side of the gun industry that simply doesn't care how these guns are being viewed, worshipped, and how they are ending up in the hands of terrorists. And when the fictional weapons of Tony Stark ended up in the wrong hands he went 'iron man' and got them back. But the gun industry is more Obadiah than Tony. They could raise the price if they wanted to so that maybe an 18-year-old who isn't even old enough to buy alcohol wouldn't be able to afford not 1 but 2 guns. Maybe they need to be taxed based on the type, necessity, and number of guns you already own.

As a community, we could release a public statement that calls for stricter gun regulations. As individuals, we can start conversations, internally and externally, about access to these kinds of weapons and the mindset that seeks this kind of power. I know everyone doesn't want to confront these issues, especially when it's easier to sweep things under the rug, but there are always things that we can do. It's just a question of will we?

ZealotX wrote: Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/

ZealotX wrote: Carlos: What can a Jedi do?



https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-school-shooter-what-we-know

Salvador Ramos, the alleged gunman accused of shooting his grandmother and then targeting dozens of victims – ultimately killing 19 children and two adults – at a Texas elementary school was known to be a loner who had quit his job just weeks before unleashing his attack, Fox News has learned.

Ramos, an 18-year-old Uvalde, Texas, resident, legally purchased two AR-platform rifles on May 17 and May 20, and bought 375 rounds of ammunition on May 18, Texas Sen. John Whitmire told Fox affiliate KCPQ-TV, citing a briefing from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

...

Officials said that approximately 30 minutes before the events unfolded, Ramos wrote in a series of Facebook messages, "I’m going to shoot my grandmother," "I’ve shot my grandmother," and then: "I’m going to shoot an elementary school."

...

An Instagram account allegedly connected to Ramos featured disturbing photos, including one showing a high-capacity magazine. The Instagram account has since been taken down.

The same account allegedly sent alarming messages to a woman before the deadly attack. The first message, sent on May 12, asked, "You gonna repost my gun pics?" The woman was tagged in photos showing guns.

(he wasn't being bullied in school because he wasn't even in school at the time. This is something else)


At some point we have to understand that there is a gun culture in America that isn't the same in other countries with stricter regulations. These guns are literally the power to end the lives of many people. It is or should be well known that a lot of people respond to having their power taken away, by seeking power. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise people that many police officers were bullied. Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

So it is about guns but it's not about guns. The guns are just an avatar of the power that many people are seeking. Jedi should be advocates for balance (imho). The fact that a person can run out and buy 2 ASSAULT RIFLES... when we all know they're not about to go shoot up a forest and call that sport... these are weapons of war that are designed to kill other human beings. Period. And if we cannot be honest about that then I don't know where that leaves us.

Now it is my understanding that army personnel are not able to open or conceal carry on base unless they are law enforcement. Military bases also have lists of guns that you're not allowed to have which include assault weapons and short barrel shotguns, rifles, and silencers. For normal gun owners, I get it. There's nothing wrong as long as you are responsible. Me and Obama are not trying to take your guns. However... there is a dark side of the gun industry that simply doesn't care how these guns are being viewed, worshipped, and how they are ending up in the hands of terrorists. And when the fictional weapons of Tony Stark ended up in the wrong hands he went 'iron man' and got them back. But the gun industry is more Obadiah than Tony. They could raise the price if they wanted to so that maybe an 18-year-old who isn't even old enough to buy alcohol wouldn't be able to afford not 1 but 2 guns. Maybe they need to be taxed based on the type, necessity, and number of guns you already own.

As a community, we could release a public statement that calls for stricter gun regulations. As individuals, we can start conversations, internally and externally, about access to these kinds of weapons and the mindset that seeks this kind of power. I know everyone doesn't want to confront these issues, especially when it's easier to sweep things under the rug, but there are always things that we can do. It's just a question of will we?

Time is an odd thing. In reflection, I'm headed to Texas. The 'old west' was a gun-slingers path. It seems to my eyes that what I see is Texas and many other states coming back around to the 'old west' in some ways; with open carry now and the accessibility to have more arms at the ready. We went back in time. Knowing this, let's not make the same mistakes, ya? You ever wonder why we EAT UP old westerns?
Hmmm food for thought, some of us are in one....
*Some of the new sagas are just that, old westerns. LOL!!!! New ways to tell the old stories.
One question may be, what of Billy the kid? or even better what of the children? and our future? Where is the focus? There are countries who still have bigger, more organized Gangs than we and some have been doing it for hundreds of years. They grow up in it as an every-day life. Guns are so silly when you have ideas like a Hatchet gang or the Flying Shadows. These were not stories but crime on the street by children who had no home. Ya, that's what happens. If you want to be honest, America is way behind in organized crime and we may actually learn from the past.

To be honest if you want to make a difference .... a real difference, ...become a mentor! Thats what the "world" needs. People who can mentor others. See if that don't start waves you can't stop. See if that don't change the school rooms with hearts that care.
I dare ya no ... I double dog dare you to become a mentor and change the way children come out. Or not. Someone did for me and they happen to be Jedi. Good things come from mentors.

In my own opinion, there is no higher calling than that of being called to be a mentor. That's all we really do here too.

We used to rumble in the parking lot back in my day at my school. Funny thing, they still do in the same spot today, but they post it on the internet. When we begin to develop "US", our surroundings and even our loved ones, DO NOT. Nothing else changes but us, inside. We can outgrow our own circles in life. We can outgrow old ideas and new ones too. We can change the way we see and even act and think. Its humanly possible. To see another kid down that road, I feel for him. I feel for the families. That ain't right. LOTS of my family needs therapy. I have gotten therapy for many things that have happened to me growing up on the street. Do you think the street obeys the laws? Thats very silly to think that if you pass a law- THUGS and kids are not going to be able to get guns. Thats dumb. I owned a gun the day I joined the gang. It was given to me as a passage and as a rite of trust. There were no background checks. Crime and such will find its own means to aid in its decay.
Not that laws don't matter friend, I am all for the law and for organization and legality.

If you want to help directly - there are a few ways you can still donate to that area and such.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/05/25/how-to-donate-to-the-official-funds-that-help-uvalde-school-shooting-victims/#:~:text=How%20to%20help%20the%20victims%E2%80%99%20families%20in%20Uvalde,6%20United%20Way.%20...%207%20University%20Health.%20

Chat and discuss away and now- you have a few more resources.

Pastor Carlos

Damn Pastor Carlos

See a need, fill a need.

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote: Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/

In your view, how do you see this fitting?

ZealotX wrote:

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote: Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/

In your view, how do you see this fitting?

Your response made me think of the Drama Triangle (aka as Victim Triangle).

As long as people are playing into group identity, and these groups happen to be centered in the Victim Triangle, there adherents will always be shifting between victim and victimizer. As you said, Powerlessness seeks power.

You can see this in factions of modern feminist, BLM, LGTB activists, Christian groups who claim society is "under attack" by some group, etc. Same goes for Incels. If they feel they are being cheated by the system (victim hood) they will seek to retaliate to feel power over their supposed oppressors.

We need to stop framing our inner stories as a struggle between victim and bully, and instead realize most (but not all) of us are simply flawed but well-meaning human beings. I bet if school shooters were able to actually relate to other classmates as "damaged" and "flawed" and as "lonely" as they feel, they would be more likely to connect to them on the human level, rather than seeing them as part of a society they don't fit in.

Whyte Horse wrote: It's way beyond what I as a single Jedi can accomplish. It's probably way beyond what the entire temple is capable of but this is the only place I can come and it's a start.

I would argue that the very existence of the Jedi is making a difference. I know it made a difference in my life when I was a teenager. The key is giving these young men a place that they feel they belong. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a Jedi, but having something they can be initiated into. That's why gangs are often so attractive to young men, because they feel like they're a part of something.

The trick is getting them initiated into something positive before they are lost.

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote: Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/

In your view, how do you see this fitting?

Your response made me think of the Drama Triangle (aka as Victim Triangle).

As long as people are playing into group identity, and these groups happen to be centered in the Victim Triangle, there adherents will always be shifting between victim and victimizer. As you said, Powerlessness seeks power.

You can see this in factions of modern feminist, BLM, LGTB activists, Christian groups who claim society is "under attack" by some group, etc. Same goes for Incels. If they feel they are being cheated by the system (victim hood) they will seek to retaliate to feel power over their supposed oppressors.

We need to stop framing our inner stories as a struggle between victim and bully, and instead realize most (but not all) of us are simply flawed but well-meaning human beings. I bet if school shooters were able to actually relate to other classmates as "damaged" and "flawed" and as "lonely" as they feel, they would be more likely to connect to them on the human level, rather than seeing them as part of a society they don't fit in.

This comes from the link you posted.

"[Karpman and other clinicians point out that “victim, rescuer, and persecutor” refer to roles people unconsciously play, or try to manipulate other people to play, not the actual circumstances in someone’s life. There can be real victims of crime or racism or abuse, etc.] The three roles of the drama triangle are archetypal and easily recognizable in their extreme versions."

Does this change your view at all?

When it says there can be "real" victims, does that not indicate that this triangle refers to cases in which there is alleged misconduct or abuse but it isn't real. Do you realize this? And if so, are you saying that the experience of the groups you mentioned fall into the category of "not real" (feminist, BLM, LGTB activists, Christian groups, etc.)?

This question is not intended to cast blame but rather to seek an understanding of why and how the experiences of certain groups often seems to be mitigated by such explanations. And how the whole/sum of experiences of a group can be cast and categorized as such when it seems only appropriate to do this with individual cases.

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Manu wrote:

ZealotX wrote: Powerlessness seeks power. But without balance... then the power seeker becomes the bully... becomes the monster.

https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/

In your view, how do you see this fitting?

We need to stop framing our inner stories as a struggle between victim and bully, and instead realize most (but not all) of us are simply flawed but well-meaning human beings. I bet if school shooters were able to actually relate to other classmates as "damaged" and "flawed" and as "lonely" as they feel, they would be more likely to connect to them on the human level, rather than seeing them as part of a society they don't fit in.

I think one of the problems is that we have biases that make us believe that we are all well-meaning but flawed individuals. And that may have been true at one point in time. But as Streen said, I think you have to catch them BEFORE they are lost. Once a person goes down the (real) Darkside path they can become twisted. I'm not going to say what they found about this shooter but you can read it below.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/17/1111945402/uvalde-shooter-warning-signs-report

Clearly, this kid went to the dark side in a very real and tangible sort of way. At that point, he stopped being "Anakin" and started being "Vader". At that point, he wanted to be notorious and used the school to act upon that violent fantasy. Years ago... many years ago, when I was young... fights were with fists. But the culture has changed. And now disputes that used to be settled with fists, people settle now with guns. You step on the wrong person's shoes these days and you may have to watch your back. And part of the reason is that they have to watch theirs. People react to "market forces". And part of the reaction, I believe, is to the potential that they can and might get shot. And so they get a gun and they get scared enough to use it at the first sign of danger. I think this often employs the same psychology that law enforcement also uses in their fear of the unknown. That fear turns everyone into cowards. They shoot first and ask questions later, if you survive. But this is why the more guns you add to the situation the more explosive it becomes. It's not helping. It's just making it infinitely worse. And the only people who feel safe are those with guns but their safety is predicated on how quick they are to pull the trigger. There's an automatic escalation now that wasn't there before. So I don't think it's just isolated cases. I think a lot of these interactions are becoming more extreme. I can't speak to the bullying but it's possible that the degree of bullying was also to an extreme.

If that's the case, where is that opportunity for intervention? How can we protect students from bullying? How can we temper these interactions? And if that fails then how can we guns harder to get for twisted people? Because I think there are 3 issues to deal with. 1 is the social aspect and 2 is the mental health aspect in reaction and 3 is the access to deadly force that is often glorified as the ultimate means of "protection".

ZealotX wrote: Does this change your view at all?

No.

ZealotX wrote: When it says there can be "real" victims, does that not indicate that this triangle refers to cases in which there is alleged misconduct or abuse but it isn't real.

You've become stuck in a false dichotomy, what you imply is not what is being said at all, either by the author or by Karpman. The drama triangle as a model is not meant to negate real instances of abuse or victimhood, but to illustrate how people can become entangled in a manner to relating to each other that is toxic and warped. This can happen both to people who have suffered real abuse, and to people who have not, and transcends the "event" of abuse itself.

ZealotX wrote: ...are you saying that the experience of the groups you mentioned fall into the category of "not real" (feminist, BLM, LGTB activists, Christian groups, etc.)?

No.

ZealotX wrote: This question is not intended to cast blame but rather to seek an understanding of why and how the experiences of certain groups often seems to be mitigated by such explanations. And how the whole/sum of experiences of a group can be cast and categorized as such when it seems only appropriate to do this with individual cases.

I was very careful to use the word "factions" when I spoke of these groups, because it would be dishonest to state that all members of a group behave the same, or are motivated by the same things. As a matter of statistics, we are bound to find both productive and unproductive elements in any groups we interact with. The woman who calls herself a feminist and decides to not have children and pursue a male-dominated career, cannot be lumped together with the angry college student with her "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" t-shirt, demanding that all men should be prosecuted on rape charges and locked up 20 years simply for cat-calling a woman.

The same goes for any other group, including BLM. It is more than evident that African Americans had more than their fair share of abuse throughout American history, and that the echoes of racist policies still impact their opportunities to thrive today. Still, I believe it is evident that great leaders, such as Martin Luther King Jr., or Nelson Mandela, were able to cast away their permanent "victim" status, and instead take an active hand in forging their destinies, not through vengence, but through escaping the triangle. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all used this triangle to their advantage, pitting group against group, dividing instead of unitying.

Manu wrote:
I was very careful to use the word "factions" when I spoke of these groups, because it would be dishonest to state that all members of a group behave the same, or are motivated by the same things. As a matter of statistics, we are bound to find both productive and unproductive elements in any groups we interact with. The woman who calls herself a feminist and decides to not have children and pursue a male-dominated career, cannot be lumped together with the angry college student with her "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" t-shirt, demanding that all men should be prosecuted on rape charges and locked up 20 years simply for cat-calling a woman.

The same goes for any other group, including BLM. It is more than evident that African Americans had more than their fair share of abuse throughout American history, and that the echoes of racist policies still impact their opportunities to thrive today. Still, I believe it is evident that great leaders, such as Martin Luther King Jr., or Nelson Mandela, were able to cast away their permanent "victim" status, and instead take an active hand in forging their destinies, not through vengence, but through escaping the triangle. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all used this triangle to their advantage, pitting group against group, dividing instead of unitying.

You stated that you used the word "factions" as a means of qualifying a limited scope. However, this feels tacked on to what you previously said and I was a little thrown off by your use of "As long as people are playing into group identity, and these groups happen to be centered in the Victim Triangle" which, maybe it's not what you meant, but what I hear is you saying that the entire group identity is "centered" in the victim triangle which you seem to use outside of the context of social interaction. Not "fringe elements", not "extremists", and I don't know if "factions" is a good word choice either because that's then simply applying the same mindset to an unnamed subgroup of the group. A better choice of words would be, in my opinion, simply "individuals". You mentioned MLK. MLK wanted to be seen as an individual, not just as an African American.

And then if you had said individuals I would say well then, you're talking about individuals, not groups at all. And that's fine. And yes, I can stipulate to a certain degree of sensitivity to the use of the names of these groups because often this is how the entire group gets undermined and discredited. And what their attempting to do gets discredited and then all it takes is for someone to be called the label and then have all the hatred and animosity built up against the label unleashed on the person. So just as you are "careful" to qualify your statement to limit the scope, I'm also being careful, as one who has had to defend these groups on multiple occasions, against sexists, racists, and homophobes. I'm not identifying you as such a person. I'm hoping to steer you clear of any misperception.

To illustrate what I mean, you can say "there are African Americans who have a mentality in the victim triangle". Sort of. Because we then have to talk about conversations you've actually had/having and how they conform to this model of social interaction. But we can ASSUME that people of all races do this pretty much equally. Right? I wouldn't be able to agrue against this because I do not know every African American and it would be safe to assume there are many who fit into that description (just like everyone else). Right? But to go further and say they are members of the NAACP or the Urban League... or HBCUs... or ___insert black organization here____ that would be weird, right? I mean to say X organization has factions (not individuals) and there's a faction that represents this mindset... no one is using HBCUs or any other organization because these other organizations don't have a negative reputation; they don't have tons of opposition trying to discredit them. So I don't think it's a false dichotomy. I feel like you are labeling groups instead of individuals. And picking out "the crazies" of a group to say something about the group... how is THAT not playing identity politics with that group? This is the same thing I personally see some black people *wrongly* doing to white people in general and vice versa and *that* is what needs work. Every group has crazies in it. We can save a lot of time and stipulate to that fact. Now what?

Manu wrote:
You've become stuck in a false dichotomy, what you imply is not what is being said at all, either by the author or by Karpman. The drama triangle as a model is not meant to negate real instances of abuse or victimhood, but to illustrate how people can become entangled in a manner to relating to each other that is toxic and warped. This can happen both to people who have suffered real abuse, and to people who have not, and transcends the "event" of abuse itself.

Furthermore, the example of the triangle that's given on your link is a mother, father, and child; not the victims of real crimes, real oppression, etc. It's just talking about how people can switch in and out of these roles in a conflict. In other words, 2 people are having a social interaction where one person plays the victim, another the persecutor, and they flip back and forth. You're attempting to apply it, seemingly, outside of its original theoretical context; being dysfunctional social interactions. (See. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle)

https://leadershiptribe.com/blog/the-drama-triangle-explained
https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Karpman_Drama_Triangle
https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/character-arcs-in-the-karpman-drama-triangle/

Again, these are people "casting" themselves into different roles in a conversation by virtue of psychology, not people who actually are these roles by practical experience. But if we treat REAL victims like they're fake victims it will only dismiss and minimize their experience and our ability to connect and relate with them. It is my belief... that there are well-meaning members of our society who are being taught not to empathize with others, but to blame others for their situations, taking things like this out of context. There are many people who go around their own societal group with pseudoscientific justification to support different mentalities within that group and it all sounds so good because that group wants to and is primed and prone to believe them. Again... well-meaning people who must be gotten to before they are lost.

ZealotX wrote: Furthermore, the example of the triangle that's given on your link is a mother, father, and child; not the victims of real crimes, real oppression, etc. It's just talking about how people can switch in and out of these roles in a conflict. In other words, 2 people are having a social interaction where one person plays the victim, another the persecutor, and they flip back and forth. You're attempting to apply it, seemingly, outside of its original theoretical context; being dysfunctional social interactions. (See. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle).

It is entirely possible I am misapplying the model, I probably wouldn't be able to tell, I am neither a sociologist nor a clinical psychologist.

The model itself, however, did strike me as very relevant however, in explaining how people with more or less common experiences, can have attitudes and adopt postures that are extremely different from one another, and seemed relevant to the conversation at the time (when discussing loners self-identifying into the "Incel" group).

I get the feeling we are both probably saying the same thing, only in different ways, and we've become stuck on semantics. I do wholeheartedly agree with you that a "group" should not be conflated with any one individual.

Yes, here's where we can kind of get back on the same page. Without relying on the model, I think it is fair to say that people can fall into certain roles as there are already certain archetypes that already exist. I am an Assertive Logician (INTP-A). So of course, that is going to play a role in how I think and communicate and I can have a more relaxed intellectual conversation with another intellectual. If the person is not an intellectual then I feel more guarded because who knows how words will be interpreted, twisted, etc.

So we all have different ways of approaching a situation based on who we are. These experiences can become echoes in a chamber. Common experiences, yes. But also common experiences finding others in common to share those experiences with. And so yes, within Black America you will find far more stories of misconduct mainly with the police but sometimes even prosecutors and judges. If you don't know these stories or have one of your own it may be harder to relate. It may not even feel as real as your reality because we all experience reality through the use of our own senses.

With incels... most of their experience is formed by the lack of real experiences. They feel victimized by women because they haven't had real experiences with women. On one hand, this is because they don't know how to communicate with women. They just think that because they are males that they are entitled to having females. Instead of understanding women (which can only happen through communication) they seek to understand each other, only. There are African Americans who, because of their limited experiences with Europeans, perpetuate the myth in their minds that they're all the same. There are Europeans who do the same to them. It's a vicious cycle.

If incels never try talking to women in a very real and honest way, without the BS stereotypes, cooked up by other incels to make them feel better about being celibate, they will never know they are wrong. Racists will never know they are wrong. African Americans will never know they are wrong and they'll use the racists as proof and the racists will do the same right back; picking out the few in order to represent the many. It's just wrong, not even from a moral standpoint, but from a scientific standpoint. Not thinking it's real is just as much a sin to those who have that real experience as having views resulting from that real experience can seem sinful to those who don't have that experience and therefore can only agree in theory.

But anyone can have behavior that can be "triggered" by past experiences or traumas. What we have to be careful of doing, is lumping everyone into the same boat. There are different diseases and different cures. Everyone can self-medicate the same way but for different reasons. Right now I have some dental issue that's making my whole jaw hurt. The source of the pain is real. What actions I need to take will depend on where the pain is coming from and I have to go to the right kind of doctor.

With shooters, if you can get to them in time, good. But the pain and trauma of being socially ostracized... is a real pain. Real trauma. That pain is emotional and psychological. Children terrorize each other with words and we don't take it seriously enough because "they are kids". So then these kids are like "well I'm a kid too but look at the damage that I can do." They're giving that emotional damage back in emotional and psychological damage. The truth is that no one's child should be shooting other kids and no one's child should be bullying other kids. Melania was right to use her platform as the first lady to try and call attention to it. Unfortunately, it couldn't be taken seriously thanks to her husband being a big bully himself.

The interesting thing is that when we talk about shooters I think we, like society, have a tendency to focus on them. But as Jedi?... I think we should focus more on what created them; what in their path caused them to start drifting away to a darker place? I think when one parent fails to keep their child from shooting other kids, other parents have already failed to keep their children from bullying. And then we as a society only hear the decibels of fear and anger just as our bodies are programmed to feel pain or pleasure. So we hear a mass shooting. But the individual being bullied, we don't hear that. And we should. And so as much as I think it's the shooter's fault, I think society's hands continue to get blood on them because these shooters are being created, in part, by our children and therefore us. So the best thing I can do? Make sure my kids are not bullying other kids. And try to get them, if they can, to be that kid that shows empathy. Because maybe all they needed was for one kid to be on their side.

You also brought up another point before, and I think it is relevant: the USA needs better gun control.

How did they get better gun controll in the old west ?