The evolution of telepathy

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3 years 6 months ago #354525 by OB1Shinobi
This short film presents some really cool questions for anyone who has experienced telepathy enough to understand that it is common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=193qajOfVK0

People are complicated.
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #354527 by Rosalyn J
I think this might be improperly placed. I have moved it to the outer rim general discussions


Wow. This was a really sad movie. Not to spoil anything I will just say that I wouldn't put it past the human race to do this

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Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Rosalyn J.
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3 years 6 months ago #354529 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic The evolution of telepathy
What are these some cool questions, though? To me this was more like a film about othering and how we treat those who are perceived as or demonstrably different. There was even a clip where the most obvious analogy was explicitly stated. While they did some minimal exploration of what telepathy in particular might entail for human relationships, it felt more like a stand-in for any general criterion by which one could choose to discriminate between people.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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3 years 6 months ago #354530 by Rosalyn J
Cool questions being:
What is our inclination towards "others"?
For those who want to use "Force Powers" what are the costs?
What happens when we stop considering the least of these?

Probably more.

More ethical questions rather than telepathy questions

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3 years 6 months ago #354533 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic The evolution of telepathy
Well, the reason I ask is that these questions are already out there with a whole bunch of things that aren't equal between all humans. Perhaps we get to discuss them more openly and freely by transfering them to something like telepathy or "force powers" precisely because we know we'll never have to actually worry about those things, nor can we point at any group of people as being the one universally best represented by either the telepaths or the nons in that film. It reminds me of that classic Star Trek episode about a half-black, half-white faced alien species that had some strong racial tensions between which side of the face was which colour. So the episode could freely explore the race discussion without ever having to touch upon specific features of human history or the then-current day realities of racial dynamics in any one particular country on Earth. Needless to say this was by no means the most subtle take the Star Trek franchise ever had on the topic.
OB's comment sounded to me as if there was meant to be something about telepathy in particular, as opposed to discrimination in general, that the film raises cool questions about.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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3 years 6 months ago #354543 by
Replied by on topic The evolution of telepathy
I would say that mr Obiwon is quietly showing this very temple the lesson of its failure in inclusion.
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #354559 by OB1Shinobi

Rosalyn J wrote: Cool questions being:
What is our inclination towards "others"?
For those who want to use "Force Powers" what are the costs?
What happens when we stop considering the least of these?

Probably more.

More ethical questions rather than telepathy questions


My questions were mostly telepathy questions, originally, but you bring up excellent points.

What is our inclination towards “others”?
Great question and one which needs quite a lot of exploration. Imo the abbreviated version for me is that “others” who hurt me are dangerous and “others” who are simply around me are - well, I guess I will find out, lol. Anyone who means me no harm is a neighbor. Anyone who wants or needs to work with me cooperatively is a friend or an ally.
But how does a person learn to recognize their own capacity for “othering” other people? Or for recognize when they are being “othered”? Or differentiating when we are being “othered” compared to when someone around us is just being an arsehole? Some are othered more than others but we all have the experience of being “othered” and of “othering” others. I think asJedi we have learn to recognize both. First by being honest with ourselves about when we are doing it and next by being honest about whether its happening to us and if it is, why.

As for the cost of using “Force Powers” - well id firstly say that the huge majority of people who I see talking about “Force Powers” are people who i believe have not actually experienced the things of which they speak. Theyve read about things or seen videos about things but haven't genuinely experienced these sorts of things themselves. The very first thing that I would say about the cost of Force Powers is that it takes a lot of effort and time. I was told to not expect “magical” results and to not be deluded about my own importance if i ever did happen to experience them. I guess the first cost of “Force Powers” is the personal cost of putting in the work to achieve them and the maturity to not think oneself superior for experiencing them.

Afterthat? What if they became prolific in society? I dunno. With telepathy in particular its not really much different than simply being able to “read” people or understand where people are coming from. It is perhaps an advanced version of a skill that is already common and those who are good at this skill in whatever manifestation are already using their ability to make their ways in the world. What if the skill were developed so well that it produced a ruling class? I think the difference between something like wealth compared to telepathy is that telepathy allows you insight into someone else’s personal experience. Being rich allows influence over people without ever having to understand them at any personal level. Telepathy by its nature means being sensitive to other people’s internal worlds. Being an optimist, I have hope that moral telepaths would respect the sanctity of others, just as moral soldiers respect the sanctity of civilians.

This is just my take - these are great questions.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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3 years 6 months ago #354560 by OB1Shinobi
The first cool question that I have is this: how far could telepathy actually go? I have experienced so many instances of thought sharing that Im not at all willing to debate whether it happens or not (Gist). Based on my experiences, the level in this film seems completely out of proportion to the reality. But my experiences were the result of an untrained person making the most of the various ideas and energy work which i happened to have access to as a youngster, going through a phase of exploring mysticism. What if there are or could be people who are good enough at it to create an actual training program similar to the way that athletes have training programs to develop athletic skill? How far could it go under those circumstances? Could it reach levels similar to what we see in this short film?

People are complicated.
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #354561 by OB1Shinobi

Gisteron wrote: Well, the reason I ask is that these questions are already out there with a whole bunch of things that aren't equal between all humans. Perhaps we get to discuss them more openly and freely by transfering them to something like telepathy or "force powers" precisely because we know we'll never have to actually worry about those things, nor can we point at any group of people as being the one universally best represented by either the telepaths or the nons in that film. It reminds me of that classic Star Trek episode about a half-black, half-white faced alien species that had some strong racial tensions between which side of the face was which colour. So the episode could freely explore the race discussion without ever having to touch upon specific features of human history or the then-current day realities of racial dynamics in any one particular country on Earth. Needless to say this was by no means the most subtle take the Star Trek franchise ever had on the topic.
OB's comment sounded to me as if there was meant to be something about telepathy in particular, as opposed to discrimination in general, that the film raises cool questions about.


I love Star Trek so much. I remember that episode, btw, it was from the original Enterprise with J. T. Kirk as captain. Man, Star Trek was so awesome. From the very beginning they consistently explored social, political, and philosophical issues in a language that was intelligent and subtle. Mainstream television needs more shows of the ST caliber.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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3 years 6 months ago #354562 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic The evolution of telepathy
In the film my impression was that, while there were some training programmes for telepaths, and some advanced techniques one could use with effort, for the most part it was portrayed to be just a natural skill people were either born with or without. That is what made the discrimination and othering so emotionally impactful, is the fact that both the people who did it and those who suffered under it were at no point in any sort of control over which group they happened to be in. One can argue that in a volunteer army a soldier chooses to enlist and to train, and it is their ambition that grants them advancement through the ranks if they choose to take it. Wealth is inherited to some extent, but bar the few who were blessed with ludicrous amounts of it, most sons don't get to keep their fathers' fortune for too long unless they put some effort into maintaining it, and even the vastest capital is unlikely to pass down three or four generations unless at least some of the heirs inbetween elect to stabilize their expenses and to secure an income. A four-year-old may not have developed an independent enough thinking to meaningfully choose to share in their parents' religion nor to dissent from it, but a decade or two later it becomes increasingly patronizing and disrespectful to insist that someone else be held to account for the youngster's actions or the thoughts they sprang from.

However, from what I gathered of the film's universe, there is no mistake you or even your ancestors made to render your telepathy rating zero, and there is nothing anyone can do to "fix" that. Othering on a basis like that I'd say is morally different from othering on the basis of things the target has some measure of control over.

Although, in defense of the offending party, a distinction should be made between systemic othering and othering on an individual level. When the system sets up a public circus for the ruling kind to come and look at the "freaks", or when said kind comes along and plays with said freaks like they are less than human, that's a different moral issue than when the system refuses the freaks jobs or education. If telepathic communication is vastly superior to verbal one, that may be unfortunate, but it's not anyone's "fault" in a stricter sense.

So when it comes to career paths like the physician's, where a second saved skipping dialogue may make the difference between life and death - not to mention the cases when one is dealing with a telepathic patient who is unable for one reason or another to speak at a critical moment - it is perfectly understandable, even morally justifiable, to discriminate against people who are not up to the task, irrespective of whether anyone is to blame for that. It is the same reason we don't offer driving or piloting jobs to the blind in the real world, at least not until we can effectively remedy their blindness to an extent that'd render them as effective at said job as someone who has functional vision. It is not about seeing the blind as our lessers or about delighting in the mean-ness we get to inflict on them, but rather a recognition of the job's natural requirements and that, regrettably as it might be, someone who lacks them is simply not suited to perform the job safely and effectively.


Also, OB, I'll try and respect your wish to not argue the reality of telepathy here, because in my opinion the film is fictional, and as any good sci-fi seeks to explore social problems and moral questions, rather than propose literally possible future developments. Though, if you do ask, as you have, whether the film depicts a plausible scenario on the outset, I'd say doubtful. We know enough about the human brain to say that they are different (within reason) between individuals and that they function as a whole moreso than in parts. In order to read a mind to such a clear extent one would have to not only pick up the electrical signals which fall off with distance at a very high rate and not even a consistent one over time, but also read enough of the target's brain structure and past states to be able to reconstruct their experience. Perhaps someone better versed in neuroscience can chime in with some estimates about the sort of processing power this might roughly require to do it at any reasonable pace, but seeing how our brains are busy thinking our own thoughts most of the time, I'd intuit as a lay person that a task like this is far out of reach of a human brain one would call modern. Needless to say, even in the best case the telepath would only have access to part of a telepathic target's brain, seeing as the whole thing would include their telepathy-processing and foreign-brain-simulating sector as well, and so on, so that even mathematically cannot be how it works. Perhaps the furthest that might be a plausible basis for this, is a dedicated part of the brain, or a special organ for that purpose, that can receive signals from that organ in other bodies and store thoughts from the brain ready for transmission. A broadcasting tower, as it were. And maybe if the modern brain looks a lot like it structurally, lacking perhaps only some amplifier-like cells to receive or transmit signals on purpose, then a telepath would be able to read a modern brain and send signals to it...
All in all to that question I'd say it's not strictly impossible even whilst sticking to what we know about biology or physics (I have left out of course possible worlds where literal magic might swoop in and do what ever it pleases on a whim anyway), but I don't think it is for a lack of training that we don't have it yet, but a matter of the brain physiology we are for better or worse stuck with for now...

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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