What the force is to me

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4 years 4 months ago #346379 by
What the force is to me was created by
This is inspired by fyxe, i found what he wrote to be very interesting.

So I did some reading on my written sith texts and this is what I put 1 year ago

"The force is better defined as things that are out of your control, you can't stop the earth from spinning. But you can predict the nature of the force, and from this you can determine patterns to benefit you. As an example, though you can't stop the earth from spinning, you know it will spin tomorrow".

I really found this too vague, but what i was refering to is you can guesstimate alot of things, how people will react to what you say, how they will respong if you did something for them, things like that.

What I found vague was how I made it look like the force was just physics when really it is the nature of all things.

Anyways I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts? Im hoping to dig deeper than this breif statement.

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4 years 4 months ago #346384 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic What the force is to me
An ideal/complete physics theory would explain the nature of everything, so what do you see is the difference?

How do you know you know something? Especially when it goes against experimentally verified ideas

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4 years 4 months ago #346385 by
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Well I find that human cognition is not physics based I believe people are a special exception, but I suppose you made a good point

Some things we don't know, some things are totally a guess, but there are everyday things in our lives that we know for sure will happen or wont happen

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4 years 4 months ago #346386 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic What the force is to me
Or is it?

If chemicals don't fully control what goes on in your brain, what does? Is consciousness/free will an illusion?

I'm not saying physics has those answers (yet at any rate), but it either is deterministic or it isn't. Chance is often used as a stand in for us being ignorant of what really happens

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4 years 4 months ago #346388 by Malicious
Replied by Malicious on topic What the force is to me
I made a thread a while back on multiversal creation and the force which in a way is sort of similar to both what you said and the questions Rex asked but it's my own gibberish though .



=_= Malicious (+_+)

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4 years 4 months ago #346395 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What the force is to me

Rex wrote: ... [physics] either is deterministic or it isn't. Chance is often used as a stand in for us being ignorant of what really happens

Often, but not always. Friends of hidden variable interpretations of quantum mechanics would perhaps insist that all apparent randomness boils down to - as the name suggests - hidden, unknown variables and technological limitations against measuring their influence.
However, these interpretations struggle to stay consistent with the formal aspects of the theory even when they don't grossly contradict experimental observations outright. If the mathematical derivation of Robertson's general uncertainty relation (and Schrödinger's, Heisenberg's being a special case of both) is to be taken seriously, then it would appear that some minimal amount of non-determinism is fundamental, rooted in the raw mathematical nature of the quantities under concern, and not a consequence of imperfect measuring techniques. If we were to deny the uncertainty principles, we would be left with a theory that, despite incredible agreement with experiments, would be internally contradictory.
At most one can try and bend over backwards to interpret the formal aspects of the theory as unrepresentative of the "true" nature of the things it purports to describe, that eventhough it looks probabilistic and behaves in all formal ways like a probabilistic theory, that nevertheless it is not. Whether that is an interesting discussion to entertain is perhaps a subjective choice. I for one find that the simplest explanation for why it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck surely is that it is, at least in all ways that can be reasonably said to matter in practice, rather quite a lot indeed like a duck.
And if a duck is what it pretty much is in practice, then randomness in some cases is (to that extent) genuine.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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4 years 3 months ago #346413 by
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Good topic this! So why does physics HAVE to explain everything? Better yet why do you need everything examined? If we are deterministic with no free will because of physics why dont we just blow ourselves off the planet? What's to live for? What's to hope for? What's to fight for? Determinism is the idea that everything we are meant to do has already happened. So why go through it again? No need to help anyone cuz their fate is already sealed anyway.

I dont believe this way. Cant believe this way. We have choice and what we do matters, even if only to me. I think consciousness is not illusion but it is elusive. We need to focus on that and everything else just comes.

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4 years 3 months ago #346421 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What the force is to me

Fyxe wrote: Good topic this! So why does physics HAVE to explain everything? Better yet why do you need everything examined?

Because some 80% of the Jedi Code instruct me to assess a situation with care so I can make the best decision at my avail. That's a Jediist reasoning. Aside from that, I'm also a curious person, so I kind of want to find out how things work.


If we are deterministic with no free will because of physics why dont we just blow ourselves off the planet? What's to live for? What's to hope for? What's to fight for?

And if the universe is not deterministic and we have no free will, why then not just blow ourselves off the planet? And if the universe is not deterministic and we do have free will, what to live or hope or fight for then? The existential question is neither trivial nor silly. And we struggle with it irrespective of what we believe about universal ontology and how right we are about it.


Determinism is the idea that everything we are meant to do has already happened. So why go through it again? No need to help anyone cuz their fate is already sealed anyway.

Determinism is the idea that the state of affairs at any point in time can be fully reconstructed by having exhaustive knowledge of the state of affairs at any one point in time. It poses that all things evolve strictly dependent on each other, that all events are linked. This is actually rather quite compatible with some conceptions of the Force, it even sounds like an aspect of it. But regardless, this is the meta-ethical question, and it, too, is not easily answered by just simply having one world view and not another. If determinism is true, then why care about your fellow man? But likewise, if their fate is not sealed anyway, why care one bit about it then? Even if you have free will, why help anyone? Just like what ever we happen to wish the world to be like from the bottom of our hearts, so too does the question nothing to help estimate which model of the world is accurate. It's just a big unanswered question, either way.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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4 years 3 months ago #346500 by
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Gisteron wrote: Determinism is the idea that the state of affairs at any point in time can be fully reconstructed by having exhaustive knowledge of the state of affairs at any one point in time. It poses that all things evolve strictly dependent on each other, that all events are linked. This is actually rather quite compatible with some conceptions of the Force, it even sounds like an aspect of it. But regardless, this is the meta-ethical question, and it, too, is not easily answered by just simply having one world view and not another. ...


I like following this train of thought. I unfortunately am not as grounded in physics as Gisteron, but hope I can contribute to the discussion with some rather inconclusive guidance that is offered from the worlds of art and philosophy. In regards to the issue of whether reality is deterministic or subject to free will, I can think of four helpful sources.

One is a foundational principle of Buddhism, where "interdependent causation" is discussed. This idea asserts that each experience is not the result of a single cause, traceable back to a Creator of all, but rather is both causative, and dependent upon, all other events; essentially, that everything depends upon everything else. It is pretty much an affirmation of determinism, based upon a principle that nothing is independent and so there can be no completely free will.

This principle - and its opposite - are described in a striking way in a second source from filmography, "The Matrix". The Keymaker's character expresses a conviction in determinism several times, mostly notably as he his dying, when he says "Everything that happened, happened, and couldn't have happened any other way." His entire persona was based upon an assumption that there is a design for what occurs, and it cannot be changed. By contrast, Neo and his mentor Morpheus were steadfast in their rejection of destiny, embracing instead the potency of the power of choice. "Everything comes down to choice," Morpheus once declared. We see in that movie both Neo and Smith, in their conversations with the Oracle, question whether they had free will; Neo ultimately determined he did, but Smith struggled with the question right up until the end. Perhaps, philosophically, Smith was like most of us.

I recommend as a third speculation the movie "Sliding Door" starring Gwyneth Paltrow. The tale profiles a young woman who is struggling with several dissatisfying circumstances including a troubled relationship and a problematic job. In one scene, she rushes to catch a subway and suddenly the screen image splits into two; on one side, she catches the train, and on the other she misses it. Then, two stories unfold, and with their similarities and differences we are led to question how much of our lives might be cast from birth, and how much of their unfolding we can change.

Finally, I am remembering the biography of vaudeville strongman Joseph Greenstein. Greenstein, as a sickly boy, literally ran away with the circus, and was taken under the wing of the circus strongman who, sharing Greenstein's Jewish faith, was able to teach him not only principles of good physical health but some of the mysticism embodied in ancient Judaism. By training his body and his mind, Greenstein grew to break chains wrapped around his chest, straighten horseshoes, and a couple of times actually hold back operating airplanes. Being philosophically oriented, Greenstein once tried to resolve the question of whether we have free will, or whether everything was predestined. After reflection, he made the utterly illogical conclusion that both were true, and the matter was a mystery that the human mind is simply not capable of understanding. (Maybe, I say tongue in cheek, he was counseled by Schrodinger's cat.)

Anyway, none of that answers the question. But I hope it provides some food for thought.

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4 years 3 months ago #346533 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What the force is to me
We're not going to start talking about blind people and elephant trunks are we!? Well I just did, bugger.

Causal impacts (footprints) might exceed our capacity to perceive them, therefore have an 'appearance' of non-determinism.

What are we talking about again :P

If determinism is the norm at our scale of existence, then it makes it easy to improve by a focus on being better determinants :side:

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Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
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