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I want to know, what is The Force?
- OB1Shinobi
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Fyxe wrote: No ob1, I asked the question what is the force? because I want to know what people think it is so we can discuss it and see what we can decide it is. I have an idea and you have an idea but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?
Interesting reply. Some of your ideas make no sense but when others point this out to you, you say they are bullying you. Now you are saying it is natural and appropriate for you to point out how and where other peoples ideas make no sense. Are you bullying them? Does it seem like you may be operating from a double standard? Do you see how others might believe you are operating from a double standard?
People are complicated.
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Fyxe wrote: no double standard, I dont make fun of others opinions like others do. or tell me Im not listening or am a liar. I dont insult people. I just disagree, and you can disagree with me all yo uwant but I wojuld like you to tell me why and what you think is actualy realy instead of just teasing me.
Im willing to concede that some of us have a posting style that can come across as challenging. This may seem hostile or even insulting if youre not prepared for it but that doenst make it always so. Theres been some times where some people have been more blunt than they had to be, especially as time has gone on and frustration has increased. However, it also seems true that you have completely ignored all of the reasonable points that have been made to you by others and focused entirely on the instances where you felt insulted. This actually had the effect of fueling the challenging nature of some of our feedback because there were people who were really trying to communicate with you and times where you werent being insulted at all but because you thought you were being insulted, you ignored all of the sincere efforts at communication and seemed to want to make the whole thing about how poorly you were being treated.
As for you being called a liar: i dont have the energy for recalling the specific instances and pointing out the rationale for why someone would say that you lied. Generally, there have been several times where you have mischaracterized the way that people have treated you, here, and have mischaracterized what theyve said. Youve also claimed that you were in search of greater understanding but the way youve responded to other people has made that claim seem dubious. “In search of greater understanding” suggests that you want to learn from others. It APPEARS that you already have your opinions set about most things, and want others to agree with them. I dont know if the word “liar” is perfectly appropriate but its not entirely inaccurate, either.
People are complicated.
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Well, good sir... How very dare you. Who are you to "deny someone else's experience" or however you put it? Or at least that's how you would respond. But I guess it's alright when you do it, isn't it?Fyxe wrote: I have an idea and you have an idea but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?
Nobody was making fun of you, nobody was teasing you, nobody did anything to bully you, and you keep insisting that people did (and that they said specific things nobody said, too) while everyone can go back and read up on it. That is why I call you a liar: Because you keep lying, consistently and reliably. That's not an insult, that's just a description, and a perfectly fair one at that. If you find that that's a bad thing to be called, maybe you also find it a bad thing to be. Well, nobody is forcing you to keep lying. Like everyone else, you are free to read things people say attentively, maybe re-read them before misrepresenting them, or quote them, if that helps. Instead you elect not to and then carry on lying about what happened again and again.
See, I would love to keep it a discussion about the Force. But no. As with all threads you start, it's all a race to try and find the quickest way to make it all about you instead...
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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but I don't believe I can do that before I have a definite faith in what the force IS. When I wrote the essay, I was honest. I didn't have any faith (still don't) but I knew it had something to do with the physical and metaphysical; the thunder above me, the memories in my head, the grass and brick hut around me.
Swirling around this single moment is thoughts, memories, questions, sound waves, electricity, physics, chemistry, biology, and a thousand theories that have yet to be conceptualized by science as we know it. All this stuff is composed of (at its most simple level) matter and vibration. There is one last hope. The hope that my individual thoughts, memories, and questions are somehow connected to the vast energy in the sky. I hope the energy that beckons thunder and rain from the sky is the same energy that stirs memories of a grandmother, or thoughts of laughter.
We all want to be connected to something bigger. Hope is not always truth... but sometimes it can be.
For most of us.... maybe for all of us... The Force is symbolic of the divine (or lack of the divine). If I equated the Force to a specific God, I wouldn't be studying Jediism. I would be kneeling in a church, or bowing in a mosque, or sitting on a meditation blanket in front of a mandala. My insecurity in the divine has led me to embrace the force, to acknowledge that I do not know if anything connects us, but I hope something does. Because I have no conclusion, the force is always changing. Moving, flowing, ebbing, growing.
I might hope that after studying Jediism, studying life, and studying science, I may come to a conclusion. Every seeker of religion seeks a conclusion. We all seek a concrete pillar of confidence, a spiritual core to build philosophies, careers, lives, families... I do not think the force cares about any of that. I do not think the force has a conclusion. It cannot be described, because it is beyond words. It cannot be known, because it is always changing. Is this then a reason to drop our staffs, or swords, our pens, our books, our laptops? To end the quest for knowledge? No. It is the changing path that matters.
I could keep writing. Trying to explain The Force with words is like trying to understand the sun by looking at it. We understand the sun by lying on a hillside and absorbing vitamin D. We understand the sun by studying plants, photosynthesis, light, physics, astronomy, gravity. We understand the sun by living our lives in its light, and remembering the light when all we see is darkness. If we try to understand the sun by looking at it... we just go blind.
That might be the smartest or the most foolish thing I have ever said... extremes are always a good place to end.
The Force Is.
That's all we really need to say. Everything (which includes nothing) is the force. Good and evil (if they exist) are both contained within the Force. Being above good and evil, I don't believe the force would have a will per se. It would be more like a river. It is moving in a certain direction, and we can either act in harmony or disharmony with it. It's the cause-and-effect since creation, it's every state of matter and transfer of energy that has ever happened. We can all logically say that the force is matter and energy because, much like forestjedi said, "everything" is a difficult definition to argue against because it is self-inclusively "right". As soon as we throw religious or supernatural elements we begin travelling into "woo/magic" territory, and must proceed with caution.
That being said...
To agree logically in "The Force Is" and to have faith in that belief are different things. I don't logically believe in the Abrahamic God, but it is difficult to shed the superstitions and moral code hammered into the heart of a Roman Catholic alter boy. To me the Force is still a question: a personal commitment to seek the thing that connects everything.
Fyxe, I respect your interpretation of the force, but I don't think the temple will ever agree on the nature of the force. As for myself, I don't want everyone here to agree. Everyone's individual belief are what give us color and perspective to looking at the world. So rather than come to a conclusion - I am content to leave it simply: "The Force Is....."
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You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
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The Force is electric, breathing,
Alive with both omniscience and wonder.
Its nostrils the wind,
Its eyes a symmetric pair of clouds,
Its feet the feet of lions and of ants.
The Force is a heartbeat, a quasar,
An infant's laugh.
It is the anguish of a mother whose child has died.
Its song is in the roaring wildfire, the wolf's howl, the kitten's purr.
The Force is everywhere and everything
Except for when it's not.
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Fyxe wrote: OMG!! f**k both you gist and ob1. I am discussing THE FORCE!!! YOU ARE THE ONES THAT DRUG THIS CONVERSATION INTO A PISSING CONTEST AND GIST YOU ARE THE LIAR THAT IS MAKING THIS ALL ABOUT YOU AND THEN BLAMING ME!!
You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
If you go back to this post: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480 i told you what i think the Force is.
OB1Shinobi wrote: For me, the Force is the web of cause and effect by which the universe moves. Is it mystical or metaphysical? Magical, even? Well, maybe. Certainly to the degree that these words mean something which exists in reality then they are an aspect of the Force. I perceive and interact with my immediate environment. Lets say, all the sounds that i can hear and everything i can see within my field of vision; this is the piece of the universe that I have some degree of access to. Potentially, I can affect and be affected by anyone and most anything in my immediate environment. But Im also immersed in a web of circumstances which are the result of my personal experiences and choices. I chose to be a Jedi, I chose to do the job that I do and to pursue the degree that I am pursuing and the hobbies and interests that I explore in my free time. All these choice immerse me in processes and relationships which shape my personality and offer me new opportunities. I also have effects on the people and events that I interact with and while my impact on the Fore may be minimal, it is real.
Every single thing about me (and all of us) from my height and weight to my belief structure to the circumstances that have me at this computer in this place right now as i type this, can all be traced back to a cause or a set of causes. Following this process of tracing back to find the cause/s will take us, eventually, all the way back to the very birth of the universe (we are made of molecules that made stars). All of this is what the Force is, to me. Some of the causes and effects going on in the universe may be magical, definitely many are purely physical but whatever they are, they constitute a web of causality of which i and everything else in existence is a part. This web of cause and effect is large and complicated beyond my comprehension and the vast majority of it is completely out of my reach, but some small piece of it responds directly to me and my behavior and influences me and my behavior. I am in a relationship with Reality. This is what the Force is, to me.
If you wanted to talk about the Force you could have but you didnt; you completely ignored everything i said about it, instead. Now you are claiming that i am trying to drag the conversation away from its intended focus even though you, yourself ignored the focus in favor of making it about you. But youre accusing me of doing that. I gave you two topic options to choose from: a discussion of the Force and a discussion of your interactions and reception here at TOTJO. You chose to talk about yourself but now youre angry at me for continuing the discussion that you chose and am chastising me for not talking about the Force. Do you see how people might interpret this as a double standard?
People are complicated.
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