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I want to know, what is The Force?
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13 Nov 2019 19:03 - 13 Nov 2019 19:09 #345483
by OB1Shinobi
Interesting reply. Some of your ideas make no sense but when others point this out to you, you say they are bullying you. Now you are saying it is natural and appropriate for you to point out how and where other peoples ideas make no sense. Are you bullying them? Does it seem like you may be operating from a double standard? Do you see how others might believe you are operating from a double standard?
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Fyxe wrote: No ob1, I asked the question what is the force? because I want to know what people think it is so we can discuss it and see what we can decide it is. I have an idea and you have an idea but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?
Interesting reply. Some of your ideas make no sense but when others point this out to you, you say they are bullying you. Now you are saying it is natural and appropriate for you to point out how and where other peoples ideas make no sense. Are you bullying them? Does it seem like you may be operating from a double standard? Do you see how others might believe you are operating from a double standard?
People are complicated.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 19:09 by OB1Shinobi.
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13 Nov 2019 19:12 #345484
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
no double standard, I dont make fun of others opinions like others do. or tell me Im not listening or am a liar. I dont insult people. I just disagree, and you can disagree with me all yo uwant but I wojuld like you to tell me why and what you think is actualy realy instead of just teasing me.
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13 Nov 2019 19:47 - 13 Nov 2019 20:18 #345486
by OB1Shinobi
Im willing to concede that some of us have a posting style that can come across as challenging. This may seem hostile or even insulting if youre not prepared for it but that doenst make it always so. Theres been some times where some people have been more blunt than they had to be, especially as time has gone on and frustration has increased. However, it also seems true that you have completely ignored all of the reasonable points that have been made to you by others and focused entirely on the instances where you felt insulted. This actually had the effect of fueling the challenging nature of some of our feedback because there were people who were really trying to communicate with you and times where you werent being insulted at all but because you thought you were being insulted, you ignored all of the sincere efforts at communication and seemed to want to make the whole thing about how poorly you were being treated.
As for you being called a liar: i dont have the energy for recalling the specific instances and pointing out the rationale for why someone would say that you lied. Generally, there have been several times where you have mischaracterized the way that people have treated you, here, and have mischaracterized what theyve said. Youve also claimed that you were in search of greater understanding but the way youve responded to other people has made that claim seem dubious. “In search of greater understanding” suggests that you want to learn from others. It APPEARS that you already have your opinions set about most things, and want others to agree with them. I dont know if the word “liar” is perfectly appropriate but its not entirely inaccurate, either.
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Fyxe wrote: no double standard, I dont make fun of others opinions like others do. or tell me Im not listening or am a liar. I dont insult people. I just disagree, and you can disagree with me all yo uwant but I wojuld like you to tell me why and what you think is actualy realy instead of just teasing me.
Im willing to concede that some of us have a posting style that can come across as challenging. This may seem hostile or even insulting if youre not prepared for it but that doenst make it always so. Theres been some times where some people have been more blunt than they had to be, especially as time has gone on and frustration has increased. However, it also seems true that you have completely ignored all of the reasonable points that have been made to you by others and focused entirely on the instances where you felt insulted. This actually had the effect of fueling the challenging nature of some of our feedback because there were people who were really trying to communicate with you and times where you werent being insulted at all but because you thought you were being insulted, you ignored all of the sincere efforts at communication and seemed to want to make the whole thing about how poorly you were being treated.
As for you being called a liar: i dont have the energy for recalling the specific instances and pointing out the rationale for why someone would say that you lied. Generally, there have been several times where you have mischaracterized the way that people have treated you, here, and have mischaracterized what theyve said. Youve also claimed that you were in search of greater understanding but the way youve responded to other people has made that claim seem dubious. “In search of greater understanding” suggests that you want to learn from others. It APPEARS that you already have your opinions set about most things, and want others to agree with them. I dont know if the word “liar” is perfectly appropriate but its not entirely inaccurate, either.
People are complicated.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 20:18 by OB1Shinobi.
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13 Nov 2019 19:55 #345488
by Gisteron
Nobody was making fun of you, nobody was teasing you, nobody did anything to bully you, and you keep insisting that people did (and that they said specific things nobody said, too) while everyone can go back and read up on it. That is why I call you a liar: Because you keep lying, consistently and reliably. That's not an insult, that's just a description, and a perfectly fair one at that. If you find that that's a bad thing to be called, maybe you also find it a bad thing to be. Well, nobody is forcing you to keep lying. Like everyone else, you are free to read things people say attentively, maybe re-read them before misrepresenting them, or quote them, if that helps. Instead you elect not to and then carry on lying about what happened again and again.
See, I would love to keep it a discussion about the Force. But no. As with all threads you start, it's all a race to try and find the quickest way to make it all about you instead...
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Well, good sir... How very dare you. Who are you to "deny someone else's experience" or however you put it? Or at least that's how you would respond. But I guess it's alright when you do it, isn't it?Fyxe wrote: I have an idea and you have an idea but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?
Nobody was making fun of you, nobody was teasing you, nobody did anything to bully you, and you keep insisting that people did (and that they said specific things nobody said, too) while everyone can go back and read up on it. That is why I call you a liar: Because you keep lying, consistently and reliably. That's not an insult, that's just a description, and a perfectly fair one at that. If you find that that's a bad thing to be called, maybe you also find it a bad thing to be. Well, nobody is forcing you to keep lying. Like everyone else, you are free to read things people say attentively, maybe re-read them before misrepresenting them, or quote them, if that helps. Instead you elect not to and then carry on lying about what happened again and again.
See, I would love to keep it a discussion about the Force. But no. As with all threads you start, it's all a race to try and find the quickest way to make it all about you instead...
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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13 Nov 2019 20:34 #345489
by Skryym
There is no bad weather, only bad attitudes and bad attire. - Gandalf the Grey
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Replied by Skryym on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
I followed Brick's example and looked back at my own interpretation of the force essay in the IP. Honestly, my interpretation was empty, incomplete, and borderline lazy with a hint of ego. I've pasted it in the spoiler if you're interested in reading it. In fact, I might re-write a worthier essay in the future
but I don't believe I can do that before I have a definite faith in what the force IS. When I wrote the essay, I was honest. I didn't have any faith (still don't) but I knew it had something to do with the physical and metaphysical; the thunder above me, the memories in my head, the grass and brick hut around me.
The Force Is.
That's all we really need to say. Everything (which includes nothing) is the force. Good and evil (if they exist) are both contained within the Force. Being above good and evil, I don't believe the force would have a will per se. It would be more like a river. It is moving in a certain direction, and we can either act in harmony or disharmony with it. It's the cause-and-effect since creation, it's every state of matter and transfer of energy that has ever happened. We can all logically say that the force is matter and energy because, much like forestjedi said, "everything" is a difficult definition to argue against because it is self-inclusively "right". As soon as we throw religious or supernatural elements we begin travelling into "woo/magic" territory, and must proceed with caution.
That being said...
To agree logically in "The Force Is" and to have faith in that belief are different things. I don't logically believe in the Abrahamic God, but it is difficult to shed the superstitions and moral code hammered into the heart of a Roman Catholic alter boy. To me the Force is still a question: a personal commitment to seek the thing that connects everything.
Fyxe, I respect your interpretation of the force, but I don't think the temple will ever agree on the nature of the force. As for myself, I don't want everyone here to agree. Everyone's individual belief are what give us color and perspective to looking at the world. So rather than come to a conclusion - I am content to leave it simply: "The Force Is....."
but I don't believe I can do that before I have a definite faith in what the force IS. When I wrote the essay, I was honest. I didn't have any faith (still don't) but I knew it had something to do with the physical and metaphysical; the thunder above me, the memories in my head, the grass and brick hut around me.
Warning: Spoiler!
A lot of air is above me. Above that is a grass roof. It keeps out the sun. Above the roof, clouds boil. I hear thunder. A deep rumble. There is also a memory, the memory of my grandmother telling me that when the sky thunders, the Gods are moving furniture. There is also a question: I explicitly remember my grandmother saying "Gods" when she is a devout Roman Catholic. Any Gods in addition to the Abrahamic God would be heresy on her part. I am back in the present. The sky thunders. That is sound. There is also hope. I really hope this means the rainy season will begin. A thousand trees beg for water, and I am not strong enough to give it to them.
Swirling around this single moment is thoughts, memories, questions, sound waves, electricity, physics, chemistry, biology, and a thousand theories that have yet to be conceptualized by science as we know it. All this stuff is composed of (at its most simple level) matter and vibration. There is one last hope. The hope that my individual thoughts, memories, and questions are somehow connected to the vast energy in the sky. I hope the energy that beckons thunder and rain from the sky is the same energy that stirs memories of a grandmother, or thoughts of laughter.
We all want to be connected to something bigger. Hope is not always truth... but sometimes it can be.
For most of us.... maybe for all of us... The Force is symbolic of the divine (or lack of the divine). If I equated the Force to a specific God, I wouldn't be studying Jediism. I would be kneeling in a church, or bowing in a mosque, or sitting on a meditation blanket in front of a mandala. My insecurity in the divine has led me to embrace the force, to acknowledge that I do not know if anything connects us, but I hope something does. Because I have no conclusion, the force is always changing. Moving, flowing, ebbing, growing.
I might hope that after studying Jediism, studying life, and studying science, I may come to a conclusion. Every seeker of religion seeks a conclusion. We all seek a concrete pillar of confidence, a spiritual core to build philosophies, careers, lives, families... I do not think the force cares about any of that. I do not think the force has a conclusion. It cannot be described, because it is beyond words. It cannot be known, because it is always changing. Is this then a reason to drop our staffs, or swords, our pens, our books, our laptops? To end the quest for knowledge? No. It is the changing path that matters.
I could keep writing. Trying to explain The Force with words is like trying to understand the sun by looking at it. We understand the sun by lying on a hillside and absorbing vitamin D. We understand the sun by studying plants, photosynthesis, light, physics, astronomy, gravity. We understand the sun by living our lives in its light, and remembering the light when all we see is darkness. If we try to understand the sun by looking at it... we just go blind.
That might be the smartest or the most foolish thing I have ever said... extremes are always a good place to end.
Swirling around this single moment is thoughts, memories, questions, sound waves, electricity, physics, chemistry, biology, and a thousand theories that have yet to be conceptualized by science as we know it. All this stuff is composed of (at its most simple level) matter and vibration. There is one last hope. The hope that my individual thoughts, memories, and questions are somehow connected to the vast energy in the sky. I hope the energy that beckons thunder and rain from the sky is the same energy that stirs memories of a grandmother, or thoughts of laughter.
We all want to be connected to something bigger. Hope is not always truth... but sometimes it can be.
For most of us.... maybe for all of us... The Force is symbolic of the divine (or lack of the divine). If I equated the Force to a specific God, I wouldn't be studying Jediism. I would be kneeling in a church, or bowing in a mosque, or sitting on a meditation blanket in front of a mandala. My insecurity in the divine has led me to embrace the force, to acknowledge that I do not know if anything connects us, but I hope something does. Because I have no conclusion, the force is always changing. Moving, flowing, ebbing, growing.
I might hope that after studying Jediism, studying life, and studying science, I may come to a conclusion. Every seeker of religion seeks a conclusion. We all seek a concrete pillar of confidence, a spiritual core to build philosophies, careers, lives, families... I do not think the force cares about any of that. I do not think the force has a conclusion. It cannot be described, because it is beyond words. It cannot be known, because it is always changing. Is this then a reason to drop our staffs, or swords, our pens, our books, our laptops? To end the quest for knowledge? No. It is the changing path that matters.
I could keep writing. Trying to explain The Force with words is like trying to understand the sun by looking at it. We understand the sun by lying on a hillside and absorbing vitamin D. We understand the sun by studying plants, photosynthesis, light, physics, astronomy, gravity. We understand the sun by living our lives in its light, and remembering the light when all we see is darkness. If we try to understand the sun by looking at it... we just go blind.
That might be the smartest or the most foolish thing I have ever said... extremes are always a good place to end.
The Force Is.
That's all we really need to say. Everything (which includes nothing) is the force. Good and evil (if they exist) are both contained within the Force. Being above good and evil, I don't believe the force would have a will per se. It would be more like a river. It is moving in a certain direction, and we can either act in harmony or disharmony with it. It's the cause-and-effect since creation, it's every state of matter and transfer of energy that has ever happened. We can all logically say that the force is matter and energy because, much like forestjedi said, "everything" is a difficult definition to argue against because it is self-inclusively "right". As soon as we throw religious or supernatural elements we begin travelling into "woo/magic" territory, and must proceed with caution.
That being said...
To agree logically in "The Force Is" and to have faith in that belief are different things. I don't logically believe in the Abrahamic God, but it is difficult to shed the superstitions and moral code hammered into the heart of a Roman Catholic alter boy. To me the Force is still a question: a personal commitment to seek the thing that connects everything.
Fyxe, I respect your interpretation of the force, but I don't think the temple will ever agree on the nature of the force. As for myself, I don't want everyone here to agree. Everyone's individual belief are what give us color and perspective to looking at the world. So rather than come to a conclusion - I am content to leave it simply: "The Force Is....."
There is no bad weather, only bad attitudes and bad attire. - Gandalf the Grey
TM: Loudzoo
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13 Nov 2019 21:19 #345490
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
OMG!! f**k both you gist and ob1. I am discussing THE FORCE!!! YOU ARE THE ONES THAT DRUG THIS CONVERSATION INTO A PISSING CONTEST AND GIST YOU ARE THE LIAR THAT IS MAKING THIS ALL ABOUT YOU AND THEN BLAMING ME!!
You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
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13 Nov 2019 21:22 - 13 Nov 2019 21:22 #345491
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
skrym yes the force is, meaning it exists right and it can be seen in things right? but what are you seeing? connection to something bigger like what is that bigger thing?
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 21:22 by .
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13 Nov 2019 21:25 #345492
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
The Force.
The Force is electric, breathing,
Alive with both omniscience and wonder.
Its nostrils the wind,
Its eyes a symmetric pair of clouds,
Its feet the feet of lions and of ants.
The Force is a heartbeat, a quasar,
An infant's laugh.
It is the anguish of a mother whose child has died.
Its song is in the roaring wildfire, the wolf's howl, the kitten's purr.
The Force is everywhere and everything
Except for when it's not.
The Force is electric, breathing,
Alive with both omniscience and wonder.
Its nostrils the wind,
Its eyes a symmetric pair of clouds,
Its feet the feet of lions and of ants.
The Force is a heartbeat, a quasar,
An infant's laugh.
It is the anguish of a mother whose child has died.
Its song is in the roaring wildfire, the wolf's howl, the kitten's purr.
The Force is everywhere and everything
Except for when it's not.
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13 Nov 2019 21:36 - 13 Nov 2019 21:43 #345493
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Im going to show you an example of what i was talking about earlier
If you go back to this post: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480 i told you what i think the Force is.
If you wanted to talk about the Force you could have but you didnt; you completely ignored everything i said about it, instead. Now you are claiming that i am trying to drag the conversation away from its intended focus even though you, yourself ignored the focus in favor of making it about you. But youre accusing me of doing that. I gave you two topic options to choose from: a discussion of the Force and a discussion of your interactions and reception here at TOTJO. You chose to talk about yourself but now youre angry at me for continuing the discussion that you chose and am chastising me for not talking about the Force. Do you see how people might interpret this as a double standard?
Fyxe wrote: OMG!! f**k both you gist and ob1. I am discussing THE FORCE!!! YOU ARE THE ONES THAT DRUG THIS CONVERSATION INTO A PISSING CONTEST AND GIST YOU ARE THE LIAR THAT IS MAKING THIS ALL ABOUT YOU AND THEN BLAMING ME!!
You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
If you go back to this post: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480 i told you what i think the Force is.
Warning: Spoiler!
OB1Shinobi wrote: For me, the Force is the web of cause and effect by which the universe moves. Is it mystical or metaphysical? Magical, even? Well, maybe. Certainly to the degree that these words mean something which exists in reality then they are an aspect of the Force. I perceive and interact with my immediate environment. Lets say, all the sounds that i can hear and everything i can see within my field of vision; this is the piece of the universe that I have some degree of access to. Potentially, I can affect and be affected by anyone and most anything in my immediate environment. But Im also immersed in a web of circumstances which are the result of my personal experiences and choices. I chose to be a Jedi, I chose to do the job that I do and to pursue the degree that I am pursuing and the hobbies and interests that I explore in my free time. All these choice immerse me in processes and relationships which shape my personality and offer me new opportunities. I also have effects on the people and events that I interact with and while my impact on the Fore may be minimal, it is real.
Every single thing about me (and all of us) from my height and weight to my belief structure to the circumstances that have me at this computer in this place right now as i type this, can all be traced back to a cause or a set of causes. Following this process of tracing back to find the cause/s will take us, eventually, all the way back to the very birth of the universe (we are made of molecules that made stars). All of this is what the Force is, to me. Some of the causes and effects going on in the universe may be magical, definitely many are purely physical but whatever they are, they constitute a web of causality of which i and everything else in existence is a part. This web of cause and effect is large and complicated beyond my comprehension and the vast majority of it is completely out of my reach, but some small piece of it responds directly to me and my behavior and influences me and my behavior. I am in a relationship with Reality. This is what the Force is, to me.
If you wanted to talk about the Force you could have but you didnt; you completely ignored everything i said about it, instead. Now you are claiming that i am trying to drag the conversation away from its intended focus even though you, yourself ignored the focus in favor of making it about you. But youre accusing me of doing that. I gave you two topic options to choose from: a discussion of the Force and a discussion of your interactions and reception here at TOTJO. You chose to talk about yourself but now youre angry at me for continuing the discussion that you chose and am chastising me for not talking about the Force. Do you see how people might interpret this as a double standard?
People are complicated.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 21:43 by OB1Shinobi.
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13 Nov 2019 21:42 #345494
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
you show me where I drug this conversation off the force?
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13 Nov 2019 23:30 - 14 Nov 2019 00:12 #345497
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
I made this post, where for two thirds of my writing was dedicated to my understanding of the Force; https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480
You could have chosen to reply to what I said about the Force, instead you said this;
Which was all well and good enough, i guess. Except that i told you what i thought of the Force and you didnt make any attempt to discuss it with me. Instead, you finished with this:
Which seemed like a huge double standard to me because youve been complaining constantly anout people criticizing your ideas but you now want to be able to critizise the ideas of others, so i said;
To which you replied:
So as you can see, you played your part in the conversation moving away from the Force. You chose to say the things that you said. I am responsible for my posts and you are responsible for yours
Id also mention that we all have our own interpretations of what the Force is (as numerous people have explained) and “we” arent going to “decide” that it is any particular thing; we each understand it in the way that makes sense to us and we each allow others to understand it in the ways that make sense to them.
You could have chosen to reply to what I said about the Force, instead you said this;
Fyxe wrote: No ob1, I asked the question what is the force? because I want to know what people think it is so we can discuss it and see what we can decide it is.
Which was all well and good enough, i guess. Except that i told you what i thought of the Force and you didnt make any attempt to discuss it with me. Instead, you finished with this:
....but when ideas get shown that make no sense why cant I disagree with them?
Which seemed like a huge double standard to me because youve been complaining constantly anout people criticizing your ideas but you now want to be able to critizise the ideas of others, so i said;
Interesting reply. Some of your ideas make no sense but when others point this out to you, you say they are bullying you. Now you are saying it is natural and appropriate for you to point out how and where other peoples ideas make no sense. Are you bullying them? Does it seem like you may be operating from a double standard? Do you see how others might believe you are operating from a double standard?
To which you replied:
Fyxe wrote: no double standard, I dont make fun of others opinions like others do. or tell me Im not listening or am a liar. I dont insult people. I just disagree, and you can disagree with me all yo uwant but I wojuld like you to tell me why and what you think is actualy realy instead of just teasing me.
So as you can see, you played your part in the conversation moving away from the Force. You chose to say the things that you said. I am responsible for my posts and you are responsible for yours
Id also mention that we all have our own interpretations of what the Force is (as numerous people have explained) and “we” arent going to “decide” that it is any particular thing; we each understand it in the way that makes sense to us and we each allow others to understand it in the ways that make sense to them.
People are complicated.
Last edit: 14 Nov 2019 00:12 by OB1Shinobi.
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13 Nov 2019 23:30 - 13 Nov 2019 23:33 #345498
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Given the level of contention here, I'm doing a bit of an assessment of this thread to see if there's something to be learned.
At this writing, there are 23 posts (not including this one). It appears that they can be divided into two categories: discussion of the Force, or a discussion of a person (whether "me', "you", or "them").
There also seems to be a frequent divide between Fyxe and selected others, so to my eyes the posts line up like this:
Focus on the Force
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 9 posts
Focus on a Person
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 6 posts
A note on the tally: I counted each of Elizabeth's and Gisteron's posts as two, as their focus was partly in each category. It's also noteworthy that while six of the "other participants" posts focused on a person, at least two of those appeared to be aimed at being helpful and instructive more than confrontational.
I don't think I'll summarize this, other than to include a guideline: as a general rule, internet discussions that focus upon another person who has not requested advice tend to deteriorate rapidly as defensiveness and anger find an opportunity for expression. Other than that, please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
At this writing, there are 23 posts (not including this one). It appears that they can be divided into two categories: discussion of the Force, or a discussion of a person (whether "me', "you", or "them").
There also seems to be a frequent divide between Fyxe and selected others, so to my eyes the posts line up like this:
Focus on the Force
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 9 posts
Focus on a Person
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 6 posts
A note on the tally: I counted each of Elizabeth's and Gisteron's posts as two, as their focus was partly in each category. It's also noteworthy that while six of the "other participants" posts focused on a person, at least two of those appeared to be aimed at being helpful and instructive more than confrontational.
I don't think I'll summarize this, other than to include a guideline: as a general rule, internet discussions that focus upon another person who has not requested advice tend to deteriorate rapidly as defensiveness and anger find an opportunity for expression. Other than that, please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 23:33 by . Reason: Realigning the table - it wasn't clear the first time after hitting the Submit key
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13 Nov 2019 23:44 - 13 Nov 2019 23:45 #345499
by OB1Shinobi
So here you are insisting that you dont insult people or call people liars but here you are also insulting people and calling someone a liar. Can you see how people might think youre operating under a double standard?
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Fyxe wrote: I dont make fun of others opinions like others do. or tell me Im not listening or am a liar. I dont insult people.
Fyxe wrote: OMG!! f**k both you gist and ob1.... AND GIST YOU ARE THE LIAR THAT IS MAKING THIS ALL ABOUT YOU AND THEN BLAMING ME!!
You guys are pretty brilliant at dodge and deceive, sneak attack on the newb like a pack of hyenias!!!
So here you are insisting that you dont insult people or call people liars but here you are also insulting people and calling someone a liar. Can you see how people might think youre operating under a double standard?
People are complicated.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2019 23:45 by OB1Shinobi.
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13 Nov 2019 23:49 #345500
by OB1Shinobi
How did you count my post here: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Omhu Cuspor wrote: Given the level of contention here, I'm doing a bit of an assessment of this thread to see if there's something to be learned.
At this writing, there are 23 posts (not including this one). It appears that they can be divided into two categories: discussion of the Force, or a discussion of a person (whether "me', "you", or "them").
There also seems to be a frequent divide between Fyxe and selected others, so to my eyes the posts line up like this:
Focus on the Force
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 9 posts
Focus on a Person
Fyxe 4 posts
All other participants 6 posts
A note on the tally: I counted each of Elizabeth's and Gisteron's posts as two, as their focus was partly in each category. It's also noteworthy that while six of the "other participants" posts focused on a person, at least two of those appeared to be aimed at being helpful and instructive more than confrontational.
I don't think I'll summarize this, other than to include a guideline: as a general rule, internet discussions that focus upon another person who has not requested advice tend to deteriorate rapidly as defensiveness and anger find an opportunity for expression. Other than that, please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
How did you count my post here: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480
People are complicated.
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14 Nov 2019 00:35 #345501
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Did you guys get what you wanted Ob1? the total destruction of yet another one of my threads? Are you proud of yourself? are you squeeling with delight at how much you have hurt me and made me feel bad? well good job. all I did was answer a question you put toward me and then you acted like this and brought your little buddy in to tag team me as well. The only one missing this time is Rex, what is he on vacation this week?
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14 Nov 2019 00:41 #345502
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I counted it as "a focus on the Force". In my initial review, I missed the final paragraph, but the overwhelming amount of content of that post was about the Force.
I tried my best to be fair. My sincere apologies to anyone if I was not.
Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
OB1Shinobi wrote:
How did you count my post here: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/123079-i-want-to-know-what-is-the-force?start=10#345480
I counted it as "a focus on the Force". In my initial review, I missed the final paragraph, but the overwhelming amount of content of that post was about the Force.
I tried my best to be fair. My sincere apologies to anyone if I was not.
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14 Nov 2019 01:01 #345504
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Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
My initial post was not entirely true to myself;
I just thought it was, well, THE ANSWER, you know, to the question as presented.
My own interpretations, in terms of analogy and metaphor, revolve around "The Journey", the compass serving as my strongest emblem. It's important to know:
How to read a map (identify your current state versus where you want to be)
How to use a compass (assess ones own resources to determine not only how to proceed, but how to do so as effectively as possible)
Stops have to be made frequently, not only to reassess the resources in relation to the Journey, but to reassess the Destination, as well- like it or not, that is going to change, sometimes frequently, and sometimes just as we think we're about to arrive.
The Force, in this analogy, than, is like magnetic North- it guides us, giving us what we need to identify geographic North, and navigate effectively, from the start- search your feelings, one might say- learn/know The Force, even if you can't put it to words, and you will "find North".
I just thought it was, well, THE ANSWER, you know, to the question as presented.
My own interpretations, in terms of analogy and metaphor, revolve around "The Journey", the compass serving as my strongest emblem. It's important to know:
How to read a map (identify your current state versus where you want to be)
How to use a compass (assess ones own resources to determine not only how to proceed, but how to do so as effectively as possible)
Stops have to be made frequently, not only to reassess the resources in relation to the Journey, but to reassess the Destination, as well- like it or not, that is going to change, sometimes frequently, and sometimes just as we think we're about to arrive.
The Force, in this analogy, than, is like magnetic North- it guides us, giving us what we need to identify geographic North, and navigate effectively, from the start- search your feelings, one might say- learn/know The Force, even if you can't put it to words, and you will "find North".
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14 Nov 2019 01:35 - 14 Nov 2019 01:50 #345505
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You need to stop rejecting the process and looking for quick answers.
The resources are here for you to learn, but you yourself seem to make a habit of starting discussions with open ended, "no-wrong-answer" questions, and get quickly frustrated with not hearing the answer you have in mind, being reminded that this process, this place, is not what you thought it would be.
You need to stop blaming others for the fact that this is not working the way you want it to, or for how you respond to any kind of criticism- they may not be kind in their handling of you, but you are just as responsible for how you do/don't respond. They aren't wrong, either, this time- compared to previous discussions, they have shown incredible restraint, despite mutual frustration, in their interactions with you, and you escalated, practically from the OP, being very stand-offish.
If you aren't prepared to receive criticism or differing views, discussion is something you should reconsider.
We're not a cult; you have been told pretty much from day one what this place is, in addition to what it isn't, we do not force a consensus on this subject, we do not force our will upon others.
Your temperament is awfully fragile, and especially vulnerable to criticism, both actual and perceived.
I recommend you focus on your own development and training, and ask yourself if your seemingly unhealthy attachments to your assumptions and status as "The Victim" are worth all this grief, or if your approach is the correct one?
It's more than appropriate to reexamine, at this stage, how you are going about this, and what you could be doing differently- the same thing is clearly not working for you.
If you haven't already, I would also strongly recommend you keep your discussions private, and strictly advisory, held with someone that has the authority to act in such a capacity; Pastor Carlos seems particularly sensitive to your interests/needs, and you seem particularly responsive to his ministrations, as an example.
Replied by on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
Fyxe wrote: Did you guys get what you wanted Ob1? the total destruction of yet another one of my threads? Are you proud of yourself? are you squeeling with delight at how much you have hurt me and made me feel bad? well good job. all I did was answer a question you put toward me and then you acted like this and brought your little buddy in to tag team me as well. The only one missing this time is Rex, what is he on vacation this week?
You need to stop rejecting the process and looking for quick answers.
The resources are here for you to learn, but you yourself seem to make a habit of starting discussions with open ended, "no-wrong-answer" questions, and get quickly frustrated with not hearing the answer you have in mind, being reminded that this process, this place, is not what you thought it would be.
You need to stop blaming others for the fact that this is not working the way you want it to, or for how you respond to any kind of criticism- they may not be kind in their handling of you, but you are just as responsible for how you do/don't respond. They aren't wrong, either, this time- compared to previous discussions, they have shown incredible restraint, despite mutual frustration, in their interactions with you, and you escalated, practically from the OP, being very stand-offish.
If you aren't prepared to receive criticism or differing views, discussion is something you should reconsider.
We're not a cult; you have been told pretty much from day one what this place is, in addition to what it isn't, we do not force a consensus on this subject, we do not force our will upon others.
Your temperament is awfully fragile, and especially vulnerable to criticism, both actual and perceived.
I recommend you focus on your own development and training, and ask yourself if your seemingly unhealthy attachments to your assumptions and status as "The Victim" are worth all this grief, or if your approach is the correct one?
It's more than appropriate to reexamine, at this stage, how you are going about this, and what you could be doing differently- the same thing is clearly not working for you.
If you haven't already, I would also strongly recommend you keep your discussions private, and strictly advisory, held with someone that has the authority to act in such a capacity; Pastor Carlos seems particularly sensitive to your interests/needs, and you seem particularly responsive to his ministrations, as an example.
Last edit: 14 Nov 2019 01:50 by .
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14 Nov 2019 01:57 #345506
by Rex
There have been links to other relevant (and productive) threads like Proteus' that answer the ostensible question. This is inexcusable.
Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
Replied by Rex on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
This is unacceptable. I have been here, I even posted earlier in the thread. I'd ask the mods lock this and take more active action to prevent an increasingly unilateral immaturity here.Fyxe wrote: Did you guys get what you wanted Ob1? the total destruction of yet another one of my threads? Are you proud of yourself? are you squeeling with delight at how much you have hurt me and made me feel bad? well good job. all I did was answer a question you put toward me and then you acted like this and brought your little buddy in to tag team me as well. The only one missing this time is Rex, what is he on vacation this week?
There have been links to other relevant (and productive) threads like Proteus' that answer the ostensible question. This is inexcusable.
Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos
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14 Nov 2019 02:13 #345509
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic I want to know, what is The Force?
I have replies to people who have spokes several posts back but i want to jump in at the suggestion of locking the thread: im working to address the underlying issue. Until that is accomplished, we will continue going through the same pattern over and over, even of this thread gets locked. Please allow the discussion to continue.
People are complicated.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos
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