Following the Myth

Fyxe wrote: ...did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Fyxe wrote: But I thought the foundation was understood? Isnt it Star Wars mythology?

'He who thinks he knows, doesn't know. He who knows that he doesn't know, knows.' - Joseph Campbell

ZealotX wrote:

Brick wrote: You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

No... come on, guys. Seriously? The title of the thread is "Following the Myth". I don't think the OP is remotely saying the Jedi are real, but rather citing the mythical Jedi from the Films as being the "genuine article" vs what what we are attempting to emulate. This is not to denigrate anyone but rather to give honor to the source material from which we are (and should) draw ideas and inspiration.

I get that ZealotX. It was some of the things Fyxe has said since their OP that made me think it prudent to remind them that, at the end of the day, we are just talking about a bunch of film characters.

But we're not trying emulate the Jedi of the films? We're creating our own thing, not based on the Jedi, but based on the same sourse material that inspired the Jedi of the films. It literally says this on our homepage:

'Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise. Star Wars Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic UNIVERSE.

[...]

Jediism does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth'.

ZealotX wrote: And I think some of us are just more honest about it. Personally, I'm influenced by Yoda as much as the apostle Paul. It doesn't really even matter if either of them were real or not. It just doesn't. It's about their perspective which I can judge independently of their credibility.

I fully support your viewpoint here Zealot, as I said earlier:

'...that is not to say that we can't learn anything from the story of Star Wars (particularly the original trilogy), especially when we relate Luke's 'Hero's Journey' to that of our own path and the lesson inferred with that.'

I fully grasp' following the myth' in that regard. But some of the other comments Fyxe has made about wanting to live with other Jedi in a temple/tent, and training with lightsabers and try to move things with their mind sound more like role play to me.

Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings. Do you worship him now? If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings. Do you worship him now? If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

When you say things like "roleplay is real", that sort of thing is why some here are dubious of your intentions or sincerity, because at face value it sounds mad. I'm not going to say that you should fret what others think, but you should think carefully on statements like this. If you can't handle people saying you sound crazy, maybe avoid saying things that invite the question of your ability to distinguish between reality and fiction?

Your question/s has been answered several times over, by several people, very clearly, and patiently. The answers are the answers, whether you like them, or not. If you still don't understand the answers, it should at least be considered if that's someone else's failing to express them, or your own, for not knowing enough to understand them.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't know very much about a number of things you are talking about (it is a widely known fact that to create the image of the Jedi, originally, George Lucas drew heavy inspiration from romanticized imagery of Samurai and Wild West stories. That inspiration bit is what people are talking about, so when you claim "the Jedi weren't inspired by anything", it only hurts your position and arguments). Again, you need to rethink the conversations you start if you're going to be so defensive about the answers.

Might I add, it takes a certain amount of nerve to come into a community, starting a conversation from a position of ignorance (why would you pose it as a question, otherwise?) only to lecture the community on what it genuinely knows better than you, particularly about itself.

No one is telling you that you can't do this, nobody is withholding your assumption of the mantle of "Jedi", but if you're going to express your ideas and beliefs, you do need to thicken your skin against criticism (and perhaps implement greater tolerance for the differing interpretations within Jediism), especially if you want to seek a purist lifestyle in a world that isn't going to understand that your practice and interpretation does coming from a place of sincerity and not just "fandom gone awry".

You're attitude is far too dogmatic, and you're awfully sensitive to being judged or disagreed with, I do recommend an adjustment on these matters, lest it spoil your overall experience and progress.

OMG I never said role play was real or that I didnt understand answers, just never mind!

I'm torn between

A. Just some dillhole from the internet

and

B. The nature of Jediism isn't accessible for some reason.

This next question might seem poor for whatever reasons any number of people can think of, but I've got to start somewhere with my "bracketing" of what is going wrong with this communication, and (like it or lump it) it's often a semi-reliable starting point in framing things (not necessarily terribly accurate, but accurate enough often enough to be useful)

How old are you? (we can bracket further later, if it seems necessary to find the "ground" needed to start working together on the subject we are trying to mutually understand)

Fyxe wrote: OMG I never said role play was real...

Dude, it's your very last post before this. It's not even on a different page...

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me.

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

As for the 'non-jedi' label it would appear you've thrown in my direction: I'm not that bothered by how others choose to label me, so it's not really an issue here.

But, a word of advise, incase you do come across people who are bothered by such things: coming into this community for the first time and telling established members that they are not what they purport to be, purely because they don't meet your definition, probably isn't the best introduction you could make.

Fyxe wrote: Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings.

You are correct. I misspoke. I meant that we are inspired by (and a good chunk of the IP consists of) the source material that inspired Lucas when he was creating the Jedi.

Fyxe wrote: Do you worship him now?

No, we don't. In fact, I'm pretty sure there used to be a clear statement on the homepage saying that 'we do not worship George Lucas', but I can't seem to find it :dry:

Fyxe wrote: If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Because we're inspired by the same source materials. Though I see your point. I've made the same argument myself a couple of times. It's one of the reasons I'm not that fussed about labels (I find that half the time they confuse just as much as they clarify). I guess the word 'Jedi' makes it more accessible to the general public?

Anyway, I suggest you read the FAQ, particularly the section entitled 'What is TotJO'. I've pasted a notable paragraph below:

TotJO wrote: Here are some things TotJO is not: we are not a role-playing site, we do not teach mystical powers or how to build lightsabers, we are not a dedicated Star Wars fan site, we are not affiliated with George Lucas or Disney and we are not for people who just want to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi".

Brick wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

As for the 'non-jedi' label it would appear you've thrown in my direction: I'm not that bothered by how others choose to label me, so it's not really an issue here.

But, a word of advise, incase you do come across people who are bothered by such things: coming into this community for the first time and telling established members that they are not what they purport to be, purely because they don't meet your definition, probably isn't the best introduction you could make.

Fyxe wrote: Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings.

You are correct. I misspoke. I meant that we are inspired by (and a good chunk of the IP consists of) the source material that inspired Lucas when he was creating the Jedi.

Fyxe wrote: Do you worship him now?

No, we don't. In fact, I'm pretty sure there used to be a clear statement on the homepage saying that 'we do not worship George Lucas', but I can't seem to find it :dry:

Fyxe wrote: If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Because we're inspired by the same source materials. Though I see your point. I've made the same argument myself a couple of times. It's one of the reasons I'm not that fussed about labels (I find that half the time they confuse just as much as they clarify). I guess the word 'Jedi' makes it more accessible to the general public?

Anyway, I suggest you read the FAQ, particularly the section entitled 'What is TotJO'. I've pasted a notable paragraph below:

TotJO wrote: Here are some things TotJO is not: we are not a role-playing site, we do not teach mystical powers or how to build lightsabers, we are not a dedicated Star Wars fan site, we are not affiliated with George Lucas or Disney and we are not for people who just want to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi".

Kudos, you handled that much better than I did -_-

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now, and though I haven't read the entire thing, I think I understand what Fyxe is getting at.

It would seem that this site has lost sight of its roots. Yes, I understand that Lucas got his inspiration from Joseph Campbell and that Star Wars is fictional, but the Jedi of film used to serve as inspiration. The characters and story of Star Wars are worth consideration because they are based on mythology, but it seems that people here tend to skip over Star Wars, and go to the source of the myth.

There's an old saying that is applicable here: A picture is worth a thousand words. We can talk and talk and talk about concepts, have discussions that seem to go nowhere, but sometimes just being shown what a Jedi is has more value than the conversations we could have about them. That isn't to say we shouldn't talk about the fictional Jedi or Star Wars, as their existence is the reason we're all here, but I haven't seen much brought up about the fiction since I became a member.

_Vergere_ wrote: I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now, and though I haven't read the entire thing, I think I understand what Fyxe is getting at.

It would seem that this site has lost sight of its roots. Yes, I understand that Lucas got his inspiration from Joseph Campbell and that Star Wars is fictional, but the Jedi of film used to serve as inspiration. The characters and story of Star Wars are worth consideration because they are based on mythology, but it seems that people here tend to skip over Star Wars, and go to the source of the myth.

There's an old saying that is applicable here: A picture is worth a thousand words. We can talk and talk and talk about concepts, have discussions that seem to go nowhere, but sometimes just being shown what a Jedi is has more value than the conversations we could have about them. That isn't to say we shouldn't talk about the fictional Jedi or Star Wars, as their existence is the reason we're all here, but I haven't seen much brought up about the fiction since I became a member.

I don't disagree. Others and I have mentioned the value of the stories taught in the films, and much of the EU.

Though that is different to actually trying to move things with your mind and fight people with light sabers in real life. Much like my Christian analogy of it being one thing to follow the Teachings of Christ and another thing entirely to sit at home trying to turn water into wine.

The reason the Star Wars myth doesnt get brought up that much is because, as it says on our home page, Jediism (as taught at TotJO) does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth.

There are plenty of sites out there that do focus much more heavily on the direct Star Wars mythology and actively encourages its members to buy/build light sabers and dress up like Jedi's at gatherings etc. And there's nothing wrong with that, its just that TotJO isn't like that.

Brick wrote: There are plenty of sites out there that do focus much more heavily on the direct Star Wars mythology and actively encourages its members to buy/build light sabers and dress up like Jedi's at gatherings etc. And there's nothing wrong with that, its just that TotJO isn't like that.

Side note: That's not to say that members of TotJO can't do this if they want. We're just more about letting people express their Jediism however they like as individuals.

We've had gathering (mostly in the US) where people have dressed up and all that.

In the UK gatherings that I've been to, we've mostly stuck to just wearing normal clothes. However at Louzoo's knighting ceremony, a few years ago, we did stick some robes on, and at the most recent one Arisaig brought his light saber and gave us a pretty impressive demo of his skills.

There is quite a case to be made that we might do well taking stories of the fiction and, say, deconstructing them, not just from a mytho-analytic perspective, identifying archetypes and motifs as Campbell did, but also in terms of underlying themes and messages, possibly even teachings. There has indeed been very little of that lately. At least on the public forums I have perceived (and it may be biased by my own choices on which threads to watch and witch not to) something of a decline in both frequency and depth of Jedi philosophy in general, really.

Then again many tales and quotes are so well known and explored to death in past discussions that at least the senior users among us might not feel like even staying awake for them anymore. Rich though the fiction is, there is only so much one can spend years repeating about it in brief without it getting old eventually, and the more prominent new entries aren't arguably as... layerful as their elder counterparts.

Gisteron wrote: There is quite a case to be made that we might do well taking stories of the fiction and, say, deconstructing them, not just from a mytho-analytic perspective, identifying archetypes and motifs as Campbell did, but also in terms of underlying themes and messages, possibly even teachings. There has indeed been very little of that lately. At least on the public forums I have perceived (and it may be biased by my own choices on which threads to watch and witch not to) something of a decline in both frequency and depth of Jedi philosophy in general, really.

Then again many tales and quotes are so well known and explored to death in past discussions that at least the senior users among us might not feel like even staying awake for them anymore. Rich though the fiction is, there is only so much one can spend years repeating about it in brief without it getting old eventually, and the more prominent new entries aren't arguably as... layerful as their elder counterparts.

That's true.

But also, unlike the bible, new star wars stories can be created; whether one takes from the EU or whether one writes their own fan fiction. What is there to stop us from writing our own? or communicating new teachings through new stories, simply using the star wars universe as a background/context. I think this is the spirit of what Star Wars is. So if George Lucas was kinda like Jesus in telling this story, then following in his footsteps would be telling our own star wars stories. Why not?

Think about it another way. If its about Lucas and his creation then it becomes too "holy" or "sacred" to touch. Just like how the bible tries to curse anyone who would "add to" or "take away from" this book (although I believe that only refers to the book of revelations). So if its not sacred but we recognize our inspiration was centered around this specific content, then I would think it would only create more inspiration to add to it. Religions need a common "holy book" from which to draw connections and communicate common ideas and themes. We all know the popular themes of Christianity. But how is it that some of us got introduced to more Eastern religions? Is it not because they were partially disguised in other forms?

Religions try to provide kind of a bread crumb trail into spirituality that lead people to a higher path. It's not necessarily that beneficial if not that cohesive and that would be one of the only criticisms I would have for TOTJO. There's so much "you can do whatever" that there's no real "Jedi Path". We're basically saying the "Jedi Path" is "do whatever". That's why I would eventually like to see the IP further extended into original works, by Jedi knights, passing on things they've learned in real life but channeling those experiences into original star wars characters and stories. This way, the same things you can say about Star Wars that made it great and led people to come here, becomes the same thing you can say for TOTJO and is the reason people stay here. I think this would be a powerful thing.

This is what I was talking about! Like you cant just have a group and then go well this group is about whatever you want it to be for each person. How does that work? if I am a Jedi then my source of spiritual material is Star Wars. If my source material is something else then I am not Jedi, Im something else right? its like calling yourself a christain but focusing on hebew ritings. That doesnt make you a christain, it makes you a Jew doesnt it?

Fyxe wrote: This is what I was talking about! Like you cant just have a group and then go well this group is about whatever you want it to be for each person. How does that work? if I am a Jedi then my source of spiritual material is Star Wars. If my source material is something else then I am not Jedi, Im something else right? its like calling yourself a christain but focusing on hebew ritings. That doesnt make you a christain, it makes you a Jew doesnt it?

geez... you picked the WORST example.

Jesus was a Jew. Therefore one could easily make the argument that Jesus led them to the bible which led them to God. Most of God's words are located in the Old Testament; not the new.

But in OUR case... lol

Other religions are more likely where we started from. Luke Skywalker probably didn't lead anyone to the New Testament. But if he did, they would be a Christian, not a Jedi. Jedi in star wars don't be like, "but WWJD?"

Now you CAN be a Christian Jedi. I'm not knocking anyone. But at the same time part of the reason why all these mixes exist is because there is a point where the IP just drops you off and you wait for a training master. But aside from whatever your TM has you do, there is no canon... no bible... nothing to really quote... no official discussions of different Jedi or sith or their stories.

And I get it. Luke never really had to fight his father. Because its fiction so it didn't really happen. But did David fight Goliath? I'm not sure. It's possible. But its more possible to those who are Christians. And so they can more easily find inspiration and say "Well if David could do that, with God on his side, then I can do this!"

We should be able to do the same thing with Yoda levitating a space ship. "But he didn't, right?" But does that matter? Do you believe in the Force? If so where's the proof? What bible or version of the Koran, says "and Muhammad used the Force", and "Jesus used the force to make himself lighter than water".

I think its hard because its not a real belief in the sense that Christians (not all) believe those things happened. Those who don't believe in all the Christian myths tend to go to church less, participate less, etc. So in reality, I think every religion has the same issue but it should be a benefit for us, a strength not a weakness, that we know our inspiration is fiction. To me that's not the bug; its the feature. And I think more people will recognize that too if we create an official path extending from the IP (maybe even multiple paths).

The Star Wars theme shouldn't deter anyone from drawing more inspiration from it. It's the thing that brought us here in the first place.

Hmm I think it may be a bit much to ask of just any Knight - at least the way TOTJO has been training them so far - to become a creative writer like that. And imagine how much could be lost or overlooked, too, just because some great teachers aren't particularly good storytellers...

Also, you make a good point about the path-ness of Jediism vs the at times forcedly liberal attitude some have taken away from the TOTJO approach to it and reinforced it subsequently.
Yet, I don't think that there need necessarily be a canon of tales, a sort of scripture, as you might put it. I think instead a healthy balance can be struck between a sort of religious conservatism where one attempts at establishing a dogma for the sheer sake of having one at all, and a sort of pseudo-spiritual libertarianism by which anything and everything is Jediism if only anybody claims it to be so. And I don't think it is all that difficult to identify Jedi-like or Jediist philosophy as such without having to construct a religious superstructure above it all first. We can explore the fiction without thinking of it as revelation, we can explore other fictions without thinking of them as heresies, as I'm sure noone would suggest to anyway. We can also explore things like the Code, the Maxims, and the Teachings and not restrict our thoughts to our private Journals in so doing. There is an incredible richness of thought that can be harvested from these so thin seeming materials, yet they are treated as a standard issue, as school assignments everyone has to complete in order to "move on". It is of course never said that anyone has to take them alone, but it feels like homework and so people treat it like homeworks, so of course most of the time it isn't. And then they move on to what, anyway? An apprenticeship with yet more school assignments discussed in private?
It's not like TOTJO doesn't have all of these ponderings, all of these topics and ideas, it's just that they are relegated to narrow places of a few people who know each other increasingly well, meanwhile forfeiting all the wealth they could flourish into, were they taken out into the open.

I used to hear the old expression “I don’t need anyone to tell me how to worship, I can do that on my own. “ AND truthfully - they don’t. We have such a - free will- type of ability to choose so many avenues the option to do nothing always seems - present. If you hang out with those who like the color red - don’t be surprised at the color of shirt they give you. The same can be said for who we “yolk” or hang out with. After a while we tend - I know I do - tend to start acting like them. It has its good and its bad.

Balance is always needed with almost anything. The Myth is no exception. Find your myths. Find your real ones. If it’s Star Wars then it’s SW if it’s Star Trek then it’s Trek- if it’s a hobbits type of deal - then it’s that and it can even be a mix of real - current or fantasy myths. The idea is to give options to MAKE those choices and grow from them- never NOT grow. Spiritually if ya need help - I’m Pastor here and we have lots of clergy who can help ya find your nitch or at least give ya some encouragement.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/community/1629-steamboat28
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/community/16755-raxicorico
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/community/20117-thedude
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/community/12547-j-k-barger
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/community/17539-carlos-martinez3

There are other clergy throughout the Temple so feel free to reach out! That’s what we do!

Gisteron wrote: There is quite a case to be made that we might do well taking stories of the fiction and, say, deconstructing them, not just from a mytho-analytic perspective, identifying archetypes and motifs as Campbell did, but also in terms of underlying themes and messages, possibly even teachings. There has indeed been very little of that lately. At least on the public forums I have perceived (and it may be biased by my own choices on which threads to watch and witch not to) something of a decline in both frequency and depth of Jedi philosophy in general, really.

Then again many tales and quotes are so well known and explored to death in past discussions that at least the senior users among us might not feel like even staying awake for them anymore. Rich though the fiction is, there is only so much one can spend years repeating about it in brief without it getting old eventually, and the more prominent new entries aren't arguably as... layerful as their elder counterparts.

This notion had gone completely over my head; sure, I examined the stories in a manner, rather recently, that allowed me to understand certain elements, but I think now my focus was necessarily on the negative. I was too focused on what the tales reveal to have gone wrong, that I didn't give much thought to anything else-

"Failure is a valuable lesson" (paraphrasing, of course), there are possibly valuable lessons I'm overlooking.

I still maintain that being different Jedi doesn't make us any less Jedi. After all, the Jedi under Luke, regardless of which continuity you look at, was unavoidably and radically different from it's previous incarnation, as has happened many times over, since the Jedi first came to be.

But, while I don't foresee a practical way to fully integrate examination of these stories into the teachings here, the offering of Wookieepedia links might be valuable additions to the library, and the occasional discussion on such stories as they relate to us here in the temple?

I also come to realize some of what Fyxe has in mind is not just spiritual but cultural; perhaps not in practical ways, but I myself have proposed things here as hopeful unifying cultural pieces that weren't any more popular, or necessarily practical. At this point, I don't necessarily see how anything would even need to change, here, just some new bonus activities, it may prove rather stimulating, even promote greater enthusiasm in the existing programs as we learn and examine more!

Indeed, I think with refinement examination of the lore we draw from, more directly, could be just the thing to improve overall engagement and participation?

I also come to realize some of what Fyxe has in mind is not just spiritual but cultural; perhaps not in practical ways, but I myself have proposed things here as hopeful unifying cultural pieces that weren't any more popular, or necessarily practical. At this point, I don't necessarily see how anything would even need to change, here, just some new bonus activities, it may prove rather stimulating, even promote greater enthusiasm in the existing programs as we learn and examine more!

This comes up every now and again, under various guises, and there is a brief spark of interest by those whom are interested, but almost as fast, if not faster than the "Yes" crowd can shuffle themselves into something resembling a formed group, the "No" crowd comes together to create a din of objection - they're too poor, too busy, too isolated, too shy, too injured, they don't relate to the suggestion, or any other reason why any given suggested act or motif that establishes a "unifying culture" is untenable to them.

and so, for the sake of the "individuals" we all wander back to our own separate paths, destined to meander aimlessly with whatever meager goals we can generate for ourselves....