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Is the Dark Side Stronger?

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25 Oct 2019 12:06 #344822 by Ganner Rhysode

Rosalyn J wrote: In listening to one of the Star Wars Legends books, at a particular point I pondered the same question Luke asked Yoda. 'Is the dark side of the Force stronger?' It's less obvious than a yes/no, so I'm hoping for some good discussion


There is no "dark side" of the Force. The Force doesn't take sides. It doesn't even have sides. What you call the dark side is what happens what you give yourself over wholly to the Force. True power in the Force happens when you surrender yourself to it. If your surrender leads to evil, it's not because the Force has darkness in it, it's because you do.


TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE

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25 Oct 2019 12:33 #344824 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

_Vergere_ wrote: There is no "dark side" of the Force. The Force doesn't take sides. It doesn't even have sides. What you call the dark side is what happens what you give yourself over wholly to the Force. True power in the Force happens when you surrender yourself to it. If your surrender leads to evil, it's not because the Force has darkness in it, it's because you do.


The Force is oftentimes referred to as the "source" of all or the "whole" of the universe, ourselves being manifestations of it. How can we have darkness in us if the Force does not?

The truth is something that burns. It burns off dead wood. And people don't like having the dead wood burnt off, often because they're 95 percent dead wood. - Jordan Peterson
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25 Oct 2019 12:55 #344826 by Carlos.Martinez3
Quick question for thought - if light and dark are descriptions made by each individual, then sides are just that - my idea of the dark side are just my interpretation of dark and of light. They may not be exactly the same but it’s a round about same. The question then is : the Force has sides ? Or is it us that call the sides light and dark and gray and white or good and bad? Without our words light and dark what do we call - that... isn’t that just “the Force” in our hue or interpretation? sooooo
When we ask which is stronger - isn’t it kinna the same stuff just calling it different names?


Jokingly
Asking for a friend.
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Force continue to be with y’all as we all seek, serve, and share it.

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25 Oct 2019 13:39 #344832 by forestjedi
I agree with the notion the "sides" of the Force are something we bring to it. The Force kills lots of babies. If a person did that, you'd think it evil. The Force also produces lots of new life. The Force, in my opinion, has no "will", it doesn't care which it does - only we do that. It doesn't have an inherent "opinion" of the things which go on within it - only we bring that.

To follow the light side means, to me, working to understand the consequences of our actions, and to do more which instils peace, knowledge, serenity, harmony... and to do less which brings ignorance, passion, chaos and death. But I am under no illusion this is something the Force "does" - it's something a Jedi does, and a Jedi is part of the Force, but that's all - in the same way I don't believe a river cares if it drowns you, or floats you to where you want to go.

That's the point of the Jedi. Jedi are human and it is for Jedi to care about humans, among other things. It's about following the "light" we perceive in things, from a human point of view (the only perspective available to us) even whilst we acknowledge the "dark" in things, because we believe that is the right/best way to live. But I do also recognise, this is unfortunately open to very relativistic interpretations, which we can see played out across many threads on this very forum, the conflicting opinions and definitions of what is "light" and what is "dark"; the long-term controversy around the topic of gun ownership springs to mind here.
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25 Oct 2019 14:09 - 25 Oct 2019 14:09 #344833 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?
I do not have darkness in me. I am a creature of light! but I have seen The Force in meditation and it definitely has darkness. It sits on the edge of life and trys to devour all that touches it.

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
Last edit: 25 Oct 2019 14:09 by Fyxe.
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25 Oct 2019 14:17 #344834 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

_Vergere_ wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: In listening to one of the Star Wars Legends books, at a particular point I pondered the same question Luke asked Yoda. 'Is the dark side of the Force stronger?' It's less obvious than a yes/no, so I'm hoping for some good discussion


There is no "dark side" of the Force. The Force doesn't take sides. It doesn't even have sides. What you call the dark side is what happens what you give yourself over wholly to the Force. True power in the Force happens when you surrender yourself to it. If your surrender leads to evil, it's not because the Force has darkness in it, it's because you do.


hmmm...

I would say the force is kind of like water. Water doesn't have a "hot" or "cold" side but can be hot or cold or any temperature in between, based on its environment. There are places in the canonical universe where the dark side is stronger. It's like being in the tropics vs the arctic. Air doesn't have a temperature of its own, but based on its environment... you get the point. So I don't think there's a problem relating the different states of the Force as light and dark.

When you are in cold water, that temperature influences the temperature of your own body. When your own internal heat isn't enough to keep you warm the cold takes over and you can die. So then it also makes sense that if your own internal "light" is drowned out by the "darkness" around you because its not strong enough, then this is why we see physical dark side corruption in the canon which simply represents the non-physical corruption that tempts all those with power.

The Force is power. People can be tempted towards evil but that is typically based on their social environment. Think about it. If your environment was complete happiness and everything was perfect, and someone handed you a billion dollars would you spend it on doing crimes? No, it is even inherent in the Sith code that the individual is seeking power to break their chains. If you don't have chains then there's no need necessitating the use of power to escape that situation. So it is also about how much of that (bad) situation you can tolerate before giving into doing anything it takes to get out of it.

Take guns, for example.

At the pull of a trigger, one can SEEMINGLY make a problem "go away". So if someone else is making you unhappy you could just kill them. That person is in your environment, changing your temperature every time you get around them. This is why, as humans, we need to be conscious of other and how they feel so that we are not representing darkness and negativity, helping to make others darker and more negative because these things spread like a virus. Case in point, you're much more likely to get sick in cold weather. Do you see? So back to the gun. You could use this power to make a problem "go away" but then that problem creates another or several other problems. And there's just not enough bullets for that; especially when the real problem... is you.

So we see this with Anakin, perfectly. He has a problem. He wants it to go away. He has power. He is therefore tempted to use that power (like a gun) to make his problem go away. But you have to be responsible with power and you have to consider its affect on other people. But he only cared about his problem and so he made his problem into everyone else's problem. He was just like an active shooter at a school; literally killing 'younglings' and for what? Because they get seduced by the "dark side" as a means of making problems go away.

People don't start off being Anakin or Dylan Roof. They devolve into this state by yielding to temptation over and over again until the rules don't matter; only their selfish pursuit of power. And then they become a problem for other people that tempts others to kill them... to ironically do the same kind of thing to them... to make them "go away".

Many people flirt with the dark side because they think it's cool. It's seductive. It's sexy. It is in our human nature to watch violence because inside we still have an animalistic (reptile brain) nature that our socialized, rational, civilized will keeps in check. And when we let that nature off its chain it acts more like a wild animal and fights to survive and runs the risk of taking over our more evolved consciousness and higher thoughts of empathy and morality.

You can visualize spirituality like a pathway going up (like Jacob's ladder). The higher you go the more you become one with all the other manifestations of the Force until you are one with the Force itself. This is a pathway that typically starts at selfishness and sheds that selfish flesh to reveal the spirit. However, when one is corrupt and that corruption (based on self interest) spreads through their mind, corrupting their empathy and morality, they slide backwards on that path and use their power for self-serving reasons. When this becomes evil is when the self-interests of that person intersect with another human's interest and what might be good for he one is bad for the other. And "how evil" is typically a measurement of how much one cares. In other words, how much empathetic and moral damage has the corruption already caused?

The power of the dark side is that its a "problem solver" in a sense that people are always looking for the EASY WAY. That's why its seductive like pyramid schemes are seductive. But do they work? The truth is they can work FOR SOME and people tend to convince themselves that its worth deceiving other people on this basis in order for it to maybe work for them. Anakin didn't know whether what he was doing was going to save Padme and it clearly didn't. But he had, by then, convinced himself that it was the right thing to do for her just like he convinced himself that getting revenge was the right thing to do for his mother. The question though, is were these actions wanted by the people he was doing them for? Or was he really just doing it for HIMSELF! He was corrupted by the power he had and how "easy" it would be to hurt those who hurt the people he loved. But in both cases, no one asked him to step in. He became arrogant, thinking that he was "the chosen one" and therefore he should get to do what he wanted; have what he wanted. He wanted to have a seat on the Council (without earning it). He wanted Padme (without respect to her own wishes). He wanted revenge (without respect for the kind boy that his mother raised him to be and surely hoped he would grow to be a kind and gentle man).

So is it more powerful?

No. It is more powerful against someone who is weaker. Everything is about balance. A person who is "strong" with the dark side has LOST their battle with their own darkness. Look at Kylo Ren. Look at what old Vader said, how they talk about "giving in" to the dark side. In other words, they become slaves and servants to the dark side, giving up their soul in order to have power and be used by that power because at that point... there's nothing left for them. This is why Vader was able to be saved, because he still had something left that wasn't yet taken.... wasn't yet sacrificed like how he sacrificed his relationships and those younglings. He had a son. That's what saved him. The dark side requires sacrifice until you no longer care what else you have to do. Murdering children may not seem so foreign a thing once you fully give in. But in giving in, you die. At least the light or the good that is in you, in all of us, it dies. Vader died. He came back as a machine. He therefore had to be reborn as a man again which is how we saw his force ghost.

The weakness of the individual allows the dark side to use them in ways that a light sided hero wouldn't and couldn't because we are limited by empathy and morality. People consider it strong to do those things because they see that power; that EXTERNAL power. But the power of the Jedi to RESIST the dark side... the temptation of power... must be equally as great if a Jedi ISN'T corrupted. Because its the same power either way. So either it wins and corrupts you, or you win and it serves you, and through you, the greater good. But power cannot take advantage of weaknesses you don't have. It can only do what you allow it because you are giving your power away to it. Restraint isn't flashy. Not saying the mean thing you could have said? There's nothing sexy about it. If someone knows you have temper and sees that this time you didn't fly off the handle they might be impressed. But if you never fly off the handle because your temper is under control, they think nothing of it. Because its simply expected of you. This is why the dark side can look and sound more appealing but all that is simply part of the temptation.
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25 Oct 2019 14:37 #344835 by Carlos.Martinez3
A Difficult but very helpful idea that can grow different results can be the fact that every answer we give - especially mine- are just my ideas and my own practices. To say for me that there is no this or that is simply saying i dont. Thats ok. Can darkness be stronger in some? Can darkness be light for some? I know its easy to take the "good or light " side of things but can there be another idea to think that things I dont choose, others can? Even further is the fact that its the Force not me as myself that can make the change in others. Thats my hope anyway smiley face. There is no dark... how about for others? I know alot of what we learn here is self reflective but what about the other people who arnt like us, which would be every one else even other Jeddist.

Is confusion darkness?
Good stuff this morning for me along with yall! Thank yall for continuing to post good stuff and great ideas. This is how i learn but its not the only way. I do enjoy it much! Thanks for being a part still. Looking forward to more!

Contact The Clergy
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25 Oct 2019 14:49 #344836 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: A Difficult but very helpful idea that can grow different results can be the fact that every answer we give - especially mine- are just my ideas and my own practices. To say for me that there is no this or that is simply saying i dont. Thats ok. Can darkness be stronger in some? Can darkness be light for some? I know its easy to take the "good or light " side of things but can there be another idea to think that things I dont choose, others can? Even further is the fact that its the Force not me as myself that can make the change in others. Thats my hope anyway smiley face. There is no dark... how about for others? I know alot of what we learn here is self reflective but what about the other people who arnt like us, which would be every one else even other Jeddist.

Is confusion darkness?
Good stuff this morning for me along with yall! Thank yall for continuing to post good stuff and great ideas. This is how i learn but its not the only way. I do enjoy it much! Thanks for being a part still. Looking forward to more!


There is no light or darkness without the MIND... UNDERSTANDING the difference. So to your point, it certainly is relative because we define things based on our experience. Therefore, the first person who "fell to the dark side" didn't invent the dark side. Their ignorance of it didn't lessen its power or effect. They simply didn't understand it as being "the dark side(tm)".

A lot of people approach the dark side the same way because they don't have someone like Yoda pointing out to them where the dark side is. "That tree over there"... "that hole over there"... "that cave over there"... People don't always know where the dark side is or where to draw the line between the concept of good and evil. What's good for you might be evil to someone else and vice versa. We use holy books and sermons to try to understand where to draw the lines and to understand what happens or what will (or should) happen to those who color outside them.
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26 Oct 2019 18:30 - 26 Oct 2019 18:54 #344866 by OB1Shinobi

Some will ask "Which martial art is the best?"
They will create matches between two different styles to try to demonstrate which is stronger over another. They find very inconsistent results.


Respectfully, with nearly 100% consistency we find that people who train in fight gyms are better at fighting than people who train in schools/gyms which only do kata and cooperative drilling. Its just a fact of being punched in the face that youre not ready for it until youve been there a bunch of times. Even as you become advanced theres still bad decisions that get made in the spur of the moment due to flinching or mind-blanking or just the habits that you automatically return to in given situations.
If your grappling training always has a compliant “uke” and predetermines the victorious “tori” then even IF the techniques youre practicing could work, you're not going to be able to use them against someone who isn't playing along with you. Resistance changes everything. Facing real aggression changes everything. Styles that spar where people have to test their abilities in a context where someone can “win” and someone can “lose” produce people who are capable of using their techniques in real life because in real life, someone is trying to win and to make you lose.




But many who genuinely understand martial arts will say "It is not the style, it is the individual and their own personal understanding of themselves and cultivation of the discipline that determines how effective any one is."


Effective at what? All those things you mentioned and many others are great from the stand point of self development; becoming stronger, increasing knowledge of a system, gaining rank, increasing self knowledge and self confidence - all these things are awesome and important but they dont prepare you for the moment someone is seriously trying to kick your ass. Even sparring isnt the same thing as a real life fight but its as good as we can get unless we have a roster of anonymous Katos to jump out and attack us randomly.

Also, fighting is maybe a sub category of modern martial arts but the ability to actually fight is very arguably the essential element of any system. Does it even have a right to call itself a martial art if it doesnt teach people how to actually fight? I have done traditional martial arts and combat sports and personally, i dont believe that anyone “genuinely understand martial arts” unless they genuinely understand fighting.


from the Pink Panther
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

If you cant breath then none of us can.
Last edit: 26 Oct 2019 18:54 by OB1Shinobi.

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