Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Yes , every where not only in America.

Since you're universally and chronically obtuse, allow me to rephrase: People are dying as a direct result of Trump's policies.
You know damn well what I meant.
[hr]
Also, let's take a moment and re-assess the opening question using an analogy:

• Jedi believe the sky is blue.
• Orange man says sky is green.
• You support orange man.
• By association, you support orange man's claim sky is green.
• You no longer believe sky is blue.
• ∴, you are no longer Jedi.

Was I no longer Jedi when Papi sent me to war ? Bill? W.? Barack? We’re soldiers nazis when they did their jobs?
Um no- nice assessment but I can’t - do all this.
The sky reflects color. Regardless of who calls the sky what color at what time in what part of the world- I am still a modern day Jeddist. Regardless of who holds this to be true or thinks I don’t deserve the title - still a Jedi.
People who TELL other people what they are - are us usually not right.

Attachment C6F6E7E3-13B9-451A-9AE3-40C55B19C682.gif not found

It’s ok . I understand ... I think.

Sorry if I’m no fun ... I know.

Carlos... you're okay man.

My guess is you do not endorse kids in cages or people in general being killed and lives destroyed or ruined by Trump's policies. One of the points I've tried to make is that Trump's policies should be DISTINCTLY UNDERSTOOD apart from Republican ideals. If you fought for the government you're more likely to be a republican. Why? Because Republicans are to the military what Democrats are to black people. Black people are far more likely to vote for Democrats because it is the lesser of 2 evils and Dems are more likely to support domestic issues that are of greater concern to black voters. Military people are different. They see more support coming from Republicans who like spending lots of money on the military because they want to appear strong. This strength often comes at the cost of social programs. It's a trade off. However, you can be both strong militarily and take care of your people. But the argument is that republicans are more supportive of the troops even if they don't necessarily extend the same support to veterans affairs or hospitals that treat vets and other social programs that support vets. The propaganda/marketing is that Republicans are stronger on defense just like they are supposed to be fiscally conservative and against deficits. However, in practice this is not true and often the military spending is what puts us further in debt.

Anyway... the bottom line is that its not uncommon for vets to still have great loyalty to the Republican party. And especially if you start using war like rhetoric against immigrants, calling them "invaders", then you are more likely to trigger a patriotic response (while hugging the flag) to be totally against them and not care what happens to them because how many people actually care what happens to enemy soldiers and enemy combatants? Sometimes drones kill a person's whole family and we look every bit like the monsters they say we are. And these actions help them recruit and make sure we'll be fighting them in the next generation (well... unless we kill them all).

But if you're a Jedi... and you believe in the inherent worth of all life... then you have to put that former loyalty aside and re-evaluate it. I'm not saying don't be loyal to the US. I'm saying be loyal to the ideals within the US that agree with your beliefs as a Jedi and fight for those beliefs until the US is actively upholding those virtues. This is what makes the US what it is. It's people constantly struggling to make it better. Trump is fighting against it to make it worse. He's taking policies and making them worse so that they hurt more people and actually kill kids with cancer AS UNBELIEVABLE AS THAT SOUNDS. If you don't support that then don't support Trump. Instead, support the ideals of what the Republican party SHOULD BE. This idea that this Orange guy is a republican is... almost ridiculous. People assume he is because he keeps attacking Democrats. But he was just a Democrat himself a few years ago! So he's only using the divide and widening it because he knew his chances of winning were better as a Republican. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about you or the Republican party. This is why at least 2 republicans are trying to primary him.

The question in this thread is not about supporting Republican policies, but TRUMP and Trump policies. You have to separate the two. I don't care if you voted for Trump. It's okay. A lot of people did. A lot of farmers did. A lot of coal miners did. A lot of steel workers did. And a lot of them are regretting that vote. And that's okay. You don't have to give HIM your loyalty. Just be loyal to your country and her allies. I do not believe you could be in favor of these policies that not only separate families but lose track of parents and children so that its hard to reunite them. I do not believe you want to deport sick kids so they can die in South America. I could be wrong, but I see you more as a Republican than an actual Trump supporter.

Mahalo and thank you Z. I’m not even sure what category I fall into as far as who or what I support in general. I really couldn’t loose sleep over it. In Texas there a place called El Paso. Lived there. Been a part of the whole “ people are being treated bad” riff...

“people arnt cargo “ can’t treat em like that either. Do they - yup - have they ? Yup - will they tomorrow ? Prolly- think about this - as a American on sovereign land I have been : treated like cattle - a stranger - lost freedoms gained them- been subject of many moments, I wasn’t in control of and called a traitor. Still American. Still me. I know people effected. I help. I don’t complain. I know people who are forgotten - I remind and remember.

The Creed

I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;

Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

I am a Jedi.

I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.

Not just a poster on the wall or a phrase to say... I live it. Apply it
Now
It’s finding out how and not getting in trouble or ruining things this time that’s my concern. Give blankets to people. Feed them. Encourage them. Listen. Help. This is my practice.
I’ve seen ICE in action. I know a few. Truthfully - kinna scary with their hoods and masks all the time. Kinna weird by law they have to be covered... I’ve also talked to their bosses and worked with local churches and organizations to relive the hurt as much as possible. What you gunna do? There are ways.... sometimes we have to be shown or even ... make em.

Mod point.......I removed one post directly calling members Nazis, you are entitled to this belief but it is incredibly disrespectful to say that within a thread. You can contact me if you like with a logical reason for the post to remain.

PS Complaints have been received/

Much Love, Professional/Stern voice Kobos

I would just like to say that I never intended for it to get this out of hand. I was just curious about the original OP. That being said I do appreciate the posts that actually forwarded the discussion, as it was a rather interesting discussion.

May the Force be with you

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I don’t like Trump. I don’t like my bosses. But I did vote for him for different reasons. What are we doing with our freedoms?

You fall in the category of good guy sold a bill of goods. I don't know if it helps, but I don't think anyone is trying to blame anyone for their 2016 votes. I could care less who you voted for to be quite honest with you. I made a protest vote against the corporate democrats by voting for the Green party candidate. But I felt so inclined also having a pretty good idea that Republicans would win Ohio regardless.

You are also in Beto country. Not a bad thing. I just remember how positively he has been talking about the El Paso community and how you guys have been coming together to support one another. And that's also good. Keep being positive. Politics is an ugly dirty game and its natural to feel a little dirty just talking about it. But part of why we blast one side or the other is because we don't want to make the same mistakes in the future. I know a lot of people don't like the whole Hitler/Nazi thing being brought up. However, there are some important parallels and things to learn, NOT because anyone here is a Nazi, but rather we want EVERYONE here not to become useful pawns of people who are either actual Nazis or who might as well be.

Hitler wasn't always Hitler. At some point he was a little boy. Then he was a young man. At some point he developed some misguided ideas. At some point other people had those same ideas and there was an echo chamber of rhetoric that was pro German. Of course Germans like it because it was pro-them. So it was popular. Hitler was a populist. The problem was that being pro-German should never have been the same as being anti-Jewish. But they thought Jews were taking their good jobs and resources were too thin. They got into an us vs them mindset. It's either us or them. So their conscience allowed them to give Hitler the power to enforce their will and do things that an individual German may have found morally reprehensible. They hid behind him but ultimately saluted him.

Right now we see this same kind of mindset (not in everyone) and a fire being stoked by Trump. Instead of gas chambers kids are being locked up in cages because their parents aren't wanted in the country and Trump doesn't care how he gets rid of them. Are kids going to die? He doesn't care because his message is popular. And as we hear white nationalists chant "Jews will not replace us" many of us don't wonder why they're suddenly and boldly marching, masks off, tiki torches on, and it is their challengers, ANTIFA (anti-facists) who are being villanized by Fox propaganda ... and Trump. These white nationalists aren't coming out of the closet like its gay pride month because they love Republican values. No... they love Trump because he's speaking their language and they HEAR HIM. Are they all wrong? Are all these white nationalists (who Steve Bannon who worked for Trump is one of) misunderstanding Trump who actually loves brown and black people? Or are they hearing what other republicans don't want to admit is being said?

Actual Nazis are benefiting from the words of the POTUS and they are marching and rallying and training and committing acts of terrorism because they are hearing their president being supportive of their beliefs. It's not a mistake. And it's not a misunderstanding. And even if he condemns them they know that he has to say that for the cameras. But for them, he IS Hitler.

This sad fact sets up a question. Who else supports Trump? And why? The fact that you have other reasons is 100% valid. However, I'm still going to try and convince you (if you needed convincing) that Trump is bad and you should stop supporting him. Because guess what? Those reasons, however good they are, do not outweigh the threat of Trump being Trump. This threat is bigger than any conservative news agency is going to report because anything affecting Trump also affects their party and they know that. The same thing happened with Nixon and was also a racist. But he also had the support of Republicans until his was forced to resign.

Support is something you can withdraw at any time. Anthony Scaramucci (the Mooch) is a smart guy; a republican. He was one of Trumps biggest supporters until he just couldn't even do it anymore and now considers Trump a threat. If other Republicans can see what the Mooch sees (preferably before 2020) then that's good. Doesn't matter if you're Red or Blue is what I'm saying.

As long as you're not Orange.

rugadd wrote: Zealot...then why are watching him and his antics instead of the money? I mean, if you want to affect change...

What makes you think I ONLY watch him and his antics? The problem is that if you don't focus on him and his antics you can't convince people out of his cult of personality. Because his personality is what drives his support. The idea that he's smart drives his personality. His money is what drives the idea that he's smart.

And he lied to get his money (the money that wasn't given to him by his daddy - and maybe some of that too).

If he is undressed as a liar then maybe people will stop supporting him and then they will vote for someone else and his bad policies go bye bye. Following the money doesn't really do as much because most of the financial transactions in politics are LEGAL. So that isn't going to be the thing that moves voters.

Going into the us vs them mentality you mentioned, you say that the left and right have also done that. The extreme ends I mean; the ones destroying property, and the two recent shooters where one was each political extreme. Tim Pool said we are in a cold civil war, and I believe he is at least somewhat correct in that.

Gosh, I don't know...he has been undressed as a liar already and it seems to make people double down on supporting him...

Also, I apologize if I imlied that is all you watch. Anyone reading your posts would know you look deeper than that. I was just wondering about that particular interest...

A lot of America's political problems lies in the fact that all they'll do is vote and protest when it's popular to do so.. instigated by one extreme or another.. Political laziness is rampant in America.. they want someone to fix things for them.. they can't govern themselves anymore..

Voting won't change the system because the parties we vote for are invested in said system. Their job is to convince you of the lie that the system exists for your benefit so they can reap the ACTUAL benefits.. it doesn't matter who's in power, the system literally and LEGALLY works for the shareholders of our financial system.. YOU CAN'T VOTE THEM AWAY..

The 1st amendment preserves the right to the same legal process that saw the States break from England in the first place. That's why it was first and why the 2nd was created, to enforce the first.. voting is weak and lazy..

Sorry, I skimmed over this and saw my candidate's name. Couldn't help by start cheering:

Tulsi, Tulsi, Tulsi!

*you may return to your regular programmed conversation*

Mod Note: Though I still believe heavily that the post was innapropriate I have restored it as it needs to be open to public debate, because of my own failure to call it out, and to notify the poster of deletion. In that spirit I have restored the post. I ask that we treat each other with respect.

Much Love, Professional Voice,
Kobos

Alethea: I heard she wasn't in the race anymore. Am I misinformed?

She's shy of 2% in enough polls while having enough donors, but hasn't dropped out
She's really the only candidate at this point who has a vague chance of joining the currently qualified afaik

afaik?

steamboat28 wrote: ...there are only two responses to them: join or oppose. (...) Oppose or join. And I see where this Temple's pastor and her membership falls.

Whilst I empathise with your point Steam, in the sense of "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Good men doing nothing does not automatically make those men bad.

This 'you're either with us or you're against us mentality' is the exact same one that pretty much every villain ever has used.

Anakin Skywalker:
If you're not with me... then you're my enemy!

Obi-Wan:
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

The world isn't so binary, even in the perceived battle between good and evil, it's more nuanced. And I think our approach should be too.

See, we agree on 99% of stuff. Like, if you're post had been 'locking up children in cages is bad', or 'banning people from entering your country based on their religion is bad', we would probably all have agreed on that. But kicking the door down and saying what effectively boils down to 'if you don't actively call out Trump, let alone support him, then you're basically worse than Hitler' immediately puts people on the defensive against you and prevents any real form of dialogue from occurring.

We'll never convince people to our line of thinking if we start the conversation by attacking them.

'Have you thought about *insert political argument here*' is a much more effective phrase than 'You're wrong because *insert exact same political argument here*'.


Anyways, getting back on topic. I disagree that you can't vote for Trump and still be a Jedi. The choices were Clinton or Trump. They were both crap choices and nobody really wanted either of them, it was a no win scenario where people asked to choose the lesser of two evils. Which one is the lesser evil is entirely subjective.

I personally would have voted for Clinton, but i can see why people voted for Trump. And most of REALLY bad stuff Trump has does since taking office was not stuff he said he was going to do during the election, so people had no way of knowing they were voting for this. And we don't know what Clinton would have been like. Maybe there's a parallel universe where Clinton won, we're in the middle of WW3, and we're posting here about how we wish Trump had won (scary thought right?)

rugadd wrote: Also, I apologize if I imlied that is all you watch. Anyone reading your posts would know you look deeper than that. I was just wondering about that particular interest...

The financial aspect is, not probably, but is the most, problematic for Trump. The fact that his sons have been talking about getting money from Russians... the fact that most banks around the world will not loan Trump money because he thinks its stupid to pay back creditors and has used bankruptcy as a strategy... the fact that Russians have been renting out units in Trump properties... the fact that Deutsche Bank has been giving Trump money... the fact that this same bank has been caught laundering money for Russians... The fact that Russian Oligarchs basically hold money for Putin... the fact that Trump offered Putin a $50M apartment for letting him build a Trump tower there... The fact that wouldn't all this ownership that Trump has revert to the financing bank if Trump couldn't pay? And if the bank represents Russian Oligarchs then by extension a percentage of Trump's Deutsche backed holdings are basically their holdings. If you follow the money I can almost guarantee you that it will trace back to Vladimir Putin.

He was supposed to put his holdings into blind trust. But he didn't. People assume this is because he is such a great deal maker that it wouldn't make as much money as if he or his sons ran it themselves. But no, Trump is notoriously bad at business and has lost a tremendous amount of wealth as a result. He even lost money in the casino game; a feat that is nearly impossible because, as they say, "The house always wins". It's far more likely that Putin didn't want his assets in a blind trust because that would invite transparency and oversight and it involves Russian (ie. Putin's) money. And Putin would rather use the bank's financing to keep those puppet strings attached.

Democrats are working on trying to break through the Deutsche Bank barrier protecting all the information they have on Trump, but I think its a question of which government are they more afraid of; America or Russia.

Uzima Moto wrote: A lot of America's political problems lies in the fact that all they'll do is vote and protest when it's popular to do so.. instigated by one extreme or another.. Political laziness is rampant in America.. they want someone to fix things for them.. they can't govern themselves anymore..

Voting won't change the system because the parties we vote for are invested in said system. Their job is to convince you of the lie that the system exists for your benefit so they can reap the ACTUAL benefits.. it doesn't matter who's in power, the system literally and LEGALLY works for the shareholders of our financial system.. YOU CAN'T VOTE THEM AWAY..

The 1st amendment preserves the right to the same legal process that saw the States break from England in the first place. That's why it was first and why the 2nd was created, to enforce the first.. voting is weak and lazy..

That's not exactly true. I mean you describe ONE way, but it isn't the only way.

First we have to understand the problem; and why it feels like voting doesn't work. Because half the reason why voting doesn't work is because people feel like voting doesn't work. So they don't vote.

The problem is corruption. Corruption exists in every government. If you plant a tree in a garden and say one tree has fruit that will give you power but you shouldn't eat it... how many people will have to exist in that garden before someone eats that fruit? Before someone yields to temptation? The "left hand" path... or what I understand to be a very self-driven... "self-ish" path is at least 40% more likely to eat the fruit. The consequences of which effect everyone. One person makes a decision for "me" without understanding or caring that they're also making that decision for me....and you... and the rest of us. This is why I cannot be a sith (based on my own view of what it means).

Voting does work. Democracy was the prescribed cure for corruption because you could use democracy to weed out and replace corrupt officials; including the chief executive. But corruption has gotten worse. Why is that? Well if you're a hacker and a system has security you might go find a system that doesn't. Or, and especially if you have no choice, you could sit there and figure out that system and where its weaknesses are. We have an entire industry and profession centered around finding and arguing one's way through holes in the law.

On the other hand we now have small empires (I know people don't like me using that word) in the corporate world that represent very powerful people, not who necessarily run these empires, but who OWN these empires. Instead of owning 100% of one plantation you can own 30% of 5 and make even more money. Some people have this all figured out and they also have lawyers. The combination of the two has led to very strategic hacking(lobbying) that offers the fruit to politicians on the right committees. Placement on said committees are usually distributed based on the same kind of rules you might use for positions in a corporation. Did I not say corporations are often not owned by the people who run them? Eddie Murphy was in an excellent movie about this that should be required watching in the IP.

I know people think there's all these conspiracies going on, but my thing is this... an actual conspiracy is way too risky to keep doing. Whatever your conspiracy is you need to get it out of the dark as soon as possible and make it legal. Part of your conspiracy has to make it legal. Once that happens there is no longer any need for a conspiracy. The "owners" don't need to conspire anymore. They simply buy politicians.

The answer isn't guns. It's an old man named Bernie Sanders. No, I'm not a Bernie Bro. And NOW, its not just him. He's already influenced a change in tactics. Bernie's influence is the ONLY reason Kamala Harris (who I like but who I know is more like a Hillary) is committed to small dollar donations. The thing is, one way or another, we are PAYING for our representation. If YOU don't pay, guess what? Rich people will. Why do you think the Koch brothers put so many millions of dollars into politics? Because you work for who's paying you. Members of congress are REQUIRED to fundraise for their party. Most of them probably hate it. But all these campaigns and democratic processes are expensive. It would be different if the media was required by law to set aside airtime for both parties. That would be fair. But in the absence of fairness it is the highest bidder who wins. It's capitalism.

The little guy sits in front of the TV being influenced by political ads paid for mostly by rich people. What's the point of that? So the little guy goes out and votes for the person the rich people want in office because they're funding that person and fully expect that person to work for them. Why else would they give them money? Why would you?

The importance of Bernie Sanders is that the best ideas, the ones that will best serve the interests and needs of the most people, are also the idea that cost the rich the most. And they're not funding all these politicians and lobbying in order to waste money. The point is to spend all this money to SAVE even more money. At the same time, they promote talking heads on TV that say it isn't fair that rich people should have to pay more when they're giving us jobs. People start connecting this idea of the rich being burdened and if you burden them too much we'll lose jobs because the rich will... stop using your labor to make money?? Let them try. The American people have to stop being scared of the 1%.

It's not the government. You could replace every last person and if the laws were the same they would do the exact same thing as their predecessors. It would be like resetting/rebooting the Matrix. It's not the people, its the system. And its who owns the system and how they interact with it.

There is a movement within the Progressive wing of the Democratic party that isn't happy with Democrats and wants to remove the corruption. Part of the plan is to send in "uncorrupted" members of Congress. AOC was one of these. And you can tell how different she is because she's not simultaneously working for the 1%. She was elected through a grass roots effort. These "Justice Democrats" are also a part of the same strategy behind WolfPAC which is a political action committee designed to get money out of politics.

https://wolf-pac.com/the_solution/

Right now, its not about ideas as much as it is about money. If you have money, you get to have ideas that get voted on. Mich McConnell listens to his DONORS, not the American people. This, I swear, is the reason Americans are so frustrated with politics and with voting and why voting doesn't seem to work. The system keeps offering people the same fruit and they're selling out the country for their own private benefits.

As Jedi, I do not propose we run for office or anything like that. Nor is voting the only solution. Nor is the second amendment any kind of solution that will work here. What I do propose, for all those who want to fight, and don't love the idea of not doing anything, is to fight against the corruption of this or any government. It's what the Jedi did in canon. And Jedi (canon) have to be pure in heart and battle any internal corruption so that the power they are given, by the Force, can be used for positive change. Just because we aren't desert wizards doesn't mean we don't have a power that can change the world. But if you don't believe it then it cannot use you.

I want to say something on AOC here, she was not elected via a grassroots movement in her own district, in fact the majority of her contributions came from large amounts from outside her district. On another note, she also has been looked at for ethics violations (yes some of those accusations come from biased sources), however, some of them have held water, for example the payment from campaign funds to her significant other in large amounts over short periods of time. Unfortuatly, and it is unproven as of yet but a similar thing seems to be happening with Ilhan Omar. Which to me is sad because I was hoping that this was an incoming class of different politician even though I do not agree with the ideology they share. Had they come out to be different than their predecessors the response by the right wing would have had to be different style of politicians too, which to a moderate anti-corporatism (I. E. corporations gaining to much power over currency supply) such as myself would be refreshing and given me more hope for the future. But, I remain optimistic that solutions will be found we just seem content to push them off for a while by voting in the same concepts with different faces.

Much Love, this has been a good conversation thank you guys.
Kobos

Kobos wrote: I want to say something on AOC here, she was not elected via a grassroots movement in her own district, in fact the majority of her contributions came from large amounts from outside her district.

As I just explained... JusticeDemocrats...

https://www.justicedemocrats.com/about

I never said grass roots contained in her local district. What we need is grass roots that isn't contained. She still fiercely represents her district but she's also representing the thousands of small donors contributing to her voice and trying to get more candidates, like her, elected.

now as far as any violations are concerned... with Donald Trump people says "oh he's new. He's not a career politician. He doesn't know the ropes". With AOC, "hang her!" (paraphrasing). Yeah, that was extreme, I admit. But people don't really care if they like you. AOC came in complaining how difficult it has been financially trying to live between two places with very little income. So I don't know if its related to that. What I will not believe is that she is somehow stacking away money for herself, having nothing to do with the work she's doing. It's amazing to me because I know republicans will go after her for filling out the wrong forms and yet Trump can suggest having the next G7 at one of his properties.

And they HATE Ilhan Omar so much that Alabama republicans are trying to get her expelled even though Alabama didn't elect her. Are they trying to get Trump expelled? Of course not. This is just people trying to exploit the law as much as possible to do their political dirty work. Let's not give it too much oxygen. Instead, I'd rather talk about WHY they hate Ilhan Omar.

Ilhan Omar is Muslim. Let's all collectively gasp now. *GASP* clutch pearls.

Omar went after the Israel Lobby that many people would rather pretend doesn't exist. We've been in bed with Israel in ways Putin would fantasize about. We carry Israel's water as if Jesus himself had walked on it. And at this point no one can even agree on why. Omar dared to challenge the holy ground of this relationship where politicians almost have to swear loyalty to Israel the same way as they profess support for the troops. You cannot say ANYTHING negative about Israel without the anti-defamation league hunting you down and calling you anti-Semitic. And they're using that... as pro-Israel propaganda. There are HORRIBLE things going on in Israel. But we have to look away. Many Jews in Israel treat Palestinians like trash. And they use the state to take their land and they are really just pushing them off the map. If this happened anywhere else we'd all be outraged but we're not because we're not allowed to be. Another good political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill, addressed the UN and just because he mentioned the words "from the river to the sea" he got fired after they came after him. He called for a "free Palestine" not for the destruction of Israel but it DOESN'T MATTER because Israel doesn't want a "free Palestine" and they can target such criticism and say its anti-semitic. It's not anti-semitic in the slightest! Anti-semitic is anti-Jewish people as an ethnic group, NOT A STATE. But because the state apparatus uses this as political strategy, they burn people like Hill and Omar and basically try to force them to apologize for their criticisms.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/11/29/cnn-fires-marc-lamont-hill-wake-remarks-criticizing-israel-calling-free-palestine/