Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Lest ye believe its only those evil white men....

I hate white people.
(for the record, I ain't white, I'm Irish)

even as a joke I'm not 100% comfortable with this.

Well, I'll take 99% or below.
also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

You did read "as a joke" right? And yet you found it necessary to give the URL for sarcasm? Are you trying to be offensive/trolling or what?

also. I don't personally care that you don't care.

see what I did there?

I'M JOKING TOO
LOVE YA BUDDY
not that you care *cries in corner*
I personally don't care that you don't care that I don't care.
That's why I took the time to write this, that's how much I don't care.

CaesarEJW wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Lest ye believe its only those evil white men....

I hate white people.
(for the record, I ain't white, I'm Irish)

even as a joke I'm not 100% comfortable with this.

Well, I'll take 99% or below.
also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

You did read "as a joke" right? And yet you found it necessary to give the URL for sarcasm? Are you trying to be offensive/trolling or what?

also. I don't personally care that you don't care.
See what I did there?

I'M JOKING TOO
LOVE YA BUDDY
not that you care *cries in corner*
I personally don't care that you don't care that I don't care.
That's why I took the time to write this, that's how much I don't care.

All of this said I am going to request we head back to the topic at hand with a sense of maturity here. I don't mind a joke, if someone does well hey it happens. If it is not well received and some voices their opinion on it let them speak their piece just as you spoke the joke. Responses in line with above only inflame, lets do better than telling others we don't care. Just think there is better way to say what you were getting at. I watched this thread burn once and would prefer it not happen again. Everyone, build each other up, its what we do.

Much Love,
Kobos

Kobos wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Lest ye believe its only those evil white men....

I hate white people.
(for the record, I ain't white, I'm Irish)

even as a joke I'm not 100% comfortable with this.

Well, I'll take 99% or below.
also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

You did read "as a joke" right? And yet you found it necessary to give the URL for sarcasm? Are you trying to be offensive/trolling or what?

also. I don't personally care that you don't care.
See what I did there?

I'M JOKING TOO
LOVE YA BUDDY
not that you care *cries in corner*
I personally don't care that you don't care that I don't care.
That's why I took the time to write this, that's how much I don't care.

All of this said I am going to request we head back to the topic at hand with a sense of maturity here. I don't mind a joke, if someone does well hey it happens. If it is not well received and some voices their opinion on it let them speak their piece just as you spoke the joke. Responses in line with above only inflame, lets do better than telling others we don't care. Just think there is better way to say what you were getting at. I watched this thread burn once and would prefer it not happen again. Everyone, build each other up, its what we do.

Much Love,
Kobos

I apologize for my rather immature and inconsiderate behavior.
Please forgive me.
Peace and love to all.

Would it be wrong to suggest that Jedi should be apolitical?

I would say Jedi be more independent but not apolitical. Unless they truly want to

_Vergere_ wrote: Would it be wrong to suggest that Jedi should be apolitical?

Yes. Yes it would.

Politics touches on every major human right in some way or another, and dictates the livelihood of everyone under it's purview.

To ignore politics is to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. That is not something suggested anywhere in this Temple's Code, Creed, Teachings, Maxim's, or the "Jedi Believe" section. Nothing in the Doctrine here supports a lack of compassion, and therefore nothing in the Doctrine inherently or automatically supports an apolitical stance, according to my reading.

_Vergere_ wrote: Would it be wrong to suggest that Jedi should be apolitical?

It would be wrong but I do understand where you're coming from. I think a lot of people mainly don't want to discuss for the same reason its generally accepted as bad to talk about religion and politics at work because there's always going to be someone who will get rubbed the wrong way. However, if we can't discuss religion and politics, as Jedi, then we have a ways to go still. And it is acceptable that we are all at different stages along the Jedi path, but progress means that we shouldn't be so affected by mere discussions or someone voicing a different opinion. After all, what does progress even mean if never tested? Or without the outlet of correct application? We need to be able to see where we fall short. Being able to accept that we're wrong sometimes is important for growth. But if we never have any discussions in which we can be wrong then its like a basketball player who thinks they can beat Michael Jordan in his prime when in reality they have only played by themselves.

Ive seen many articles and videos of leftists fomenting the same kind of bigotry, resentment, mis-characterization of facts and generally faulty-logic that klansmen use to justify hating blacks and jews. I consider the various SJW narratives as being socially cancerous. Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

A general explanation of the principles we believe in is as much as i would be comfortable agreeing to, in regards to official Temple position.

INDIVIDUAL Jedi should be free to decide for themselves the nature of their service in the world, and where/how they ought to invest their time and energy. I think this approach results in most of us being at least a little bit political while protecting our shared space from becoming either an all-out political battlefield or gradually shaped into a political echo-chamber.

_Vergere_ wrote: Would it be wrong to suggest that Jedi should be apolitical?

Yes, in the sense that we should steer clear of involvement with the corrupt nature of the modern political system, but no, in the sense that it wouldn't be prudent to be apathetic towards issues that affect us all.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Ive seen many articles and videos of leftists fomenting the same kind of bigotry, resentment, mis-characterization of facts and generally faulty-logic that klansmen use to justify hating blacks and jews.

Yep - even speaking as a leftie, I would sadly have to agree with that. Some - and certainly not all - on the left have embraced the same form of fundamentalist certainty and rightness that characterizes klansmen and other brands of religious terrorists. It pains me to see it each time it appears, as an exhibition of that kind of behavior discredits those staunch progressives who are more thoughtful, and able to interact respectfully with others unlike themselves.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen. There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

OB1Shinobi wrote: INDIVIDUAL Jedi should be free to decide for themselves the nature of their service in the world, and where/how they ought to invest their time and energy. I think this approach results in most of us being at least a little bit political while protecting our shared space from becoming either an all-out political battlefield or gradually shaped into a political echo-chamber.

I would wholeheartedly agree. I have strong feelings about our current political structure, but feel I have zero authority over any other Jedi's political views. That is as it should be.

Omhu Cuspor wrote: Yep - even speaking as a leftie, I would sadly have to agree with that. Some - and certainly not all - on the left have embraced the same form of fundamentalist certainty and rightness that characterizes klansmen and other brands of religious terrorists. It pains me to see it each time it appears, as an exhibition of that kind of behavior discredits those staunch progressives who are more thoughtful, and able to interact respectfully with others unlike themselves.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen.

Quick note: when i said “here” i meant TOTJO, specifically.

There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

Id like to see actual data on this. I keep hearing it and I'm sure its possible but i mostly only hear it from crazy jerkoffs like antifa and corporate owned, partisan hack networks like CNN. Id especially like the data to account for things like backlash against the anti-white sentiments of the left and unchecked immigration of second and third world muslims into modern, western countries. In fact, people assume the rise in fascism is all angry white men but (and I don't care if people call me an islamophobe) there are strains of islam that are total dog shit (and highly fascist) and which have no place in the civilized world. Imagine the westboro baptist church after 100 years of no legal consequences for their actions....now imagine 5000 wesboro fanatics moved into your city within the last 5 years. Unchecked immigration causes major resentments, most especially if the immigrating people hold vastly different beliefs and values compared to the native population. Not only do certain strands of far-right Islam count as contributing to the rise in fascism but backlash against immigration by the natives of countries with suddenly high influx of extreme islamists may be confused with fascist sentiment.

Terms are being thrown around frivolously. Whats the difference between fascism and nationalism? Is nationalism fundamentally racist or fundamentally civic? Is Trump a fascist? A nazi? Are Trump supporters nazis and/or fascists? Too many people are repeating what theyve heard without understanding what any of it even means.

Wikipedia on Islam terror attacks in Europe
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

From the IRA to the Islamic State: the Evolving Terrorism Threat in Europe
https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/190103_EuropeanTerrorism_interior.pdf

Sex Trafficking of infidels by ISL
https://www.india.com/news/world/sex-slavery-human-trafficking-key-for-isis-boko-haram-to-lure-militants-and-raise-funds-report-2525852/

What Islamo-fascist sex trafficking looks in the UK
https://gellerreport.com/2019/05/40-arrested-muslim-sex-trafficking-gang.html/

Both the left and right are rotten at the edges. As bad as each other. I'd say a Jedi needs to be impartial; in accuracy, obviously truthful, fairly representative in being balanced in not ingratiating their bias by embellishing details to misrepresent the relevant realities. Not losing touch with reality to become a puppet of ideology basically! Not being discriminatory, not bullying... all the normal adult stuff in a world with less and less adults.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Omhu Cuspor wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen.

Quick note: when i said “here” i meant TOTJO, specifically.

Ah, my apologies. I did not read the first appearance of that sentence in the way you intended. I agree.

There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

Id like to see actual data on this. I keep hearing it and I'm sure its possible but i mostly only hear it from crazy jerkoffs like antifa and corporate owned, partisan hack networks like CNN. ... Also, terms are being thrown around frivolously. Whats the difference between fascism and nationalism? Is nationalism fundamentally racist or fundamentally civic? Is Trump a fascist? A nazi? Are Trump supporters nazis and/or fascists? Too many people are repeating what theyve heard without understanding what any of it even means.

These are great challenges and questions. I expect a substantive response requires a fair amount of text, and may also steer us off the topic of this already-ponderous thread. If the assertion that fascism is on the rise can be shown to be valid, we will probably see that Trump is a symptom more than a cause of it and the dialog will evolve in a way that goes way beyond his impact on affairs. Do you think we should start a new thread? If so, I'd be happy to kick it off, or you can if you'd rather.

It'd also be helpful to know what kind of sources you'd consider legitimate. I don't disagree with your assessment of CNN and other major networks, but in other conversations like this I'm in the habit of turning to them as that's what most people I encounter seem to believe is credible. Particularly when it comes to the more tangible questions you've raised, it'd be helpful to understand what kind of sources you prefer.

Finally OB1Shinobi, thank you for the tone of this dialog, In the online world, it is a welcome experience to engage in a dialog where we can challenge one another's assumptions and still be respectful, and both be more concerned with getting at the truth than in proving ourselves right. I suppose that is a part of what Jediism is all about.

Im interested in having the discussion but i am drained already, lol. No way i will open another topic, especially tonight. If you want to open it, please do. I have been pretty busy lately and i cant promise i will reply immediately but I will do my best and i definitely think its a conversation thats worth having.

Fair enough. I may have difficulty getting to this quickly as well, so actually appreciate the opportunity to go at this casual-like.

Malicious wrote: Okay Trump ran on building the wall which is being built even though most Democrats not all but most tried to stop this , tax reductions which he did , more jobs which he did , lowered the unimplemented numbers especially with minorities , crack down on illegal immigration which he did and a few other things that I can't remember . I'm sorry but to the best of my terrible memory I forgotten which candidates I was talking about that in the past went back or did not fulfill their campaign promises .https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/united-states/2019/06/08/democratic-presidential-candidates-are-making-promises-they-cannot-deliver

Most of the campaign promises that most of the Democrats running for president in 2020 can't be fufilled like Medicare for all , free college , adding a bunch new justices for the supreme Court ect . First of just a lone the Medicare for all would have a big negative impact on the economy and would make healthcare itself terrible possibly way worse . What kind of doctor that makes a six figure income would go for a plan that makes them only have a five figure income and if they do go for it then the doctors won't have much of a ascentive do it right or good for the matter .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2017/01/28/why-president-trumps-border-wall-is-an-example-of-bad-leadership/#11f8d64d26cf

[T]he state with the longest Mexican border is Texas - and of its 38 congressional members (36 in Congress, 2 in the Senate and 25 Republican) not one (not one) supports building the wall. The district with the longest border (800 miles) is represented by Republican Will Hurd, who said "building a wall is the most expensive and least effective way to secure the border."

Ignoring all the movie references here (which, in my book, have nothing to do with real-life Jediism): I think a Jedi knight should strive to have a balanced mind, should try to be a role-model to others, a mediator and a man of peace. Is any of this possible if one is involved in politics or radically chooses sides? I doubt it. Personally I know I wouldn't be able to. If others manage to achieve this: hats off!

Jedi Believe wrote: In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.
In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

I personally think that a jedi can have whatever political beliefs if it is not physically harming someone and causing violence generated from themselves. However if I had tp pick a certain area of political beliefs it would be independent and you vote on whoever gives the most political beliefs and actions for human rights. As we should think for ourselves and be more than just a party. However thats just my opinion.