Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

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02 Sep 2019 11:03 - 02 Sep 2019 11:25 #343057 by Kobos
I agree with you in sevral facet of what you said but in different ways, accept the Epstein deal. That was a classic, "oh huge story, oh wait look over here, well we were busy with this the corner said it was suicide, no questions asked"

Second the sate of the republic is sadly as you is in an ideological and action based role of taking opinion for news with out differentiating much of the news. I would put experiment on this forth, read a New York Times article on a sensitive subject from the 1980's then read on about today's huge difference and that is mostly that there is more opinion in things not marked opinion. Another point, read a few of the criticism articles about Nixon in his impeachment and Watergate scandal and then read anything about trump. The tone is different. It has become a form of reality-TV. This is on both sides too, you have to go out of the way to get someone who is going to present fact. They may then say what they think but the statement of fact is clear before opinion.

This is just my opinion though on the state of media in the republic, and actually most first world republics/democracies. It is also worth a look at how public figures of different view points act, it vindicates how we all act seeing someone "famous" do the same thing, it normalizes things that were the minority actions in the past.

Just some thoughts on some of the reason for a divide that sometimes serves to do more damage than good,

Much Love,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Last edit: 02 Sep 2019 11:25 by Kobos.
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03 Sep 2019 15:43 #343145 by Lykeios

Phoenix Vidensia wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Y'all are spineless doormats if you think we should let Nazis do this again. If you think those concentration camps at the border aren't concentration camps at this point, you are part of the problem.

And I didn't say all Trump supporters are Nazis. But if you support Trump you cannot be a Jedi. Period. End of sentence.

I'm not targeting anyone specifically here. But if you can't even come out and say that Trump is wrong. Or, short of that, that Nazis are wrong. Then you are against me. And therefore, I am against you.

And I'll be damned before I'm part of a group of people that weak. You're only giving room for fascism if you aren't fighting it in some way. You are passively accepting and tacitly giving them your seal of approval.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter. Now I'll return to my self-imposed exile remembering exactly why I left this "organization" in the first place. Bad taste in the mouth and a whole crowd of "Jedi" who wouldn't or couldn't fight Palpatine himself if he showed up to take over the world.

THE HOLOCAUST NEVER FREAKING HAPPENED!

Excuse me? Say that again, darling.

"I sae rantingly, an sae dauntingly, sae wantonly gaed he. He played a tune and he danced all aroond below the gallows tree."

"Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man." -Zhuangzi
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03 Sep 2019 15:45 #343146 by ZealotX
Wow... to say that I missed a lot is an epic understatement. This isn't an attempt to jump start the last conversation but rather to offer something a conclusion that rectifies what I think were some huge misunderstandings and overreactions. People got offended and then started reacting in what objectively could only be called a tantrum.

The Title of this thread was "Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?"

This is a question for and about Jedi. There is not a single sith included in "can't be a Jedi..." so any Jedi weighing in on this question could ONLY be referring to other Jedi. This means, if you do not consider yourself a Jedi neither this question or its responses can honestly or legitimately be applied to you. The reason why this question exists is because there are things Jedi believe in that Trump, as POTUS, seems to be very much against. And I only say "seems to" because I'm using my own perspective. This may not be what others see and that's okay. We can talk about it. However, you cannot force others to use your perspective. You can't say Trump definitely isn't going against Jedi beliefs (legitimately). You can only say, in your opinion, he isn't.

Why is that important? Because this is what this thread/argument all boils down to. In the haste to get or be offended, this was somewhat overlooked. Why? Because there are different types of people in different places when it comes to Trump. And we need to also recognize this fact. There are people who...

1. support Trump because they believe him and do not see what he's actually doing
(ex. he says he's already building the wall when even Fox news has said that no new wall has been built)
2. don't support Trump but think voting for him counts as support
3. supported him in the past and consider this question as equally applicable in the past
4. don't follow politics and picked Trump because he wasn't Hillary
5. support the Republican party in general without distinguishing Trumpism as anything different
6. support only Republican policies without distinguishing Trump policies and execution
7. give full-throated support vs liking some things but having reservations based on moral convictions
8. support the administration in general but specifically against certain individual policies/decisions.
9. do not equate Trump to fascism or authoritarianism in any way just because many others do
10. think Trump is basically just another Ronald Reagan with a little bit of Nixon in there. Not the greatest or the worst. But certainly not Hitler.


That was just 10 examples; not even including the "what about Obama folks" that will never see the real Trump because they're always bringing up something Obama did. And yes, people on the right were incredibly unfair to Obama. And there is a ton of hypocrisy going on because of political tribalism. This tribalism is dangerous to the extent that people aren't really seeing the real Trump who is NOT what the extreme of the extreme Left says he is, and who is NOT what the extreme of the extreme Right believes he is either. Some people think he's a "stable genius". I think he's stupid and may have some cognitive disability. But that's me. If you're on the right you may assume my opinion is low because he's a Republican. It's not at all, but I understand why you could think that.

And yes, by the same token, it's actually fair for people to have the opinion that Trump is a fascist and that all the Nazis, Neo-Nazis, KKK, White Nationalists, etc. are all one happy tent and that he is their dear leader. That's a fair opinion to have and yet the truth is more likely that Trump is a racist but doesn't care about other racists, doesn't care about any of these groups that he's throwing red meat to, doesn't knowingly subscribe to Nazi or Fascist ideology, and isn't wittingly doing all the terrible things his administration is responsible for. Because he only really and truly cares about himself, and because he would fail at even playing checkers much less chess because he has a cognitive inability to understand secondary and tertiary consequences. He can only handle direct action and reaction. He doesn't think about the rest and I said this before he got into office. And this is because he mainly only thinks in terms of what's good for himself. If it doesn't apply to him he doesn't feel it and therefore doesn't consider it. People try to explain it to him and fill reports up with it but he's uninterested. I believe this explains about 90% of his behavior.

And it isn't just me, trying to diagnose from afar. Talk to Mattis, Tillerson, Cohen, Scaramucci, Dan Coats, John Kelly, and a host of other people who have left the White House. There is almost no one who has left who hasn't had a negative opinion of Trump and the way his mind works (or doesn't). And these are mostly Republicans so it's not tribal; not partisan. There is something wrong with this man and people know it but still more people are defending him for the sake of some agenda. And as long as his base supporters (those less than 44%) get certain things they don't care because they're not watching "fake news" anyway.

Jedi can fall into one of these above groups. Jedi can be misinformed. Jedi can fall victim to propaganda or conspiracy theories. Jedi can make mistakes. This thread isn't really about those Jedi; the ones who don't know Trump and what he's doing. The question of this thread is really aimed at those who DO know what Trump is doing. The question is, if you know what he's doing, and what he's doing is against Jedi beliefs, then how can you, KNOWING that, [still] support Trump?

This thread was never for sith or for Jedi who think Trump is the messiah, the "chosen one", or any of the like. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings. That includes frustration. Those who were so offended about what Steamboat said, did you ever stop to think if he was actually talking about you? Was actually thinking about you when he said it? Or was he frustrated that Jedi, in general, don't seem to be able to take a singular hard stance against Trump the same way that the canon Jedi took a singular stance against Palpatine. Oh that's right... they didn't; not until it was too late. And then it was the sith in their midst, butchering younglings in the Temple because the Jedi were too neutral and too accommodating.

Kobos has done an admirable job in trying to defend the Temple and its TOS while sith have been trying to use TOS to seek retribution against Steam for something he said that didn't even apply to them, because honestly... you're not, by your own definition, Jedi. This is why part of me wants to volunteer to be a moderator but then again... no, because of this. Kobos did an excellent job moderating this thread because on one hand people will cry about censorship and on the other... complain about posts they find offensive. And then of course then they post offensive content in response... because THAT's better [sarcasm]. Kobos second guessed himself and even admitted to making a mistake even though he did what he thought was best at the time. So thank you, Kobos. You did a good job under difficult circumstances.

We welcome guests but at the same time this is still a Jedi website. If you think there is an implication that you're a Nazi too because you support Trump, then make a rational and logical argument to counter that. Not liking something said doesn't entitle you to saying other things someone else wont like. And it doesn't entitle anyone to imagining some great conspiracy about favoritism. There was none. There was no mob. There was no oppression of sith. But somehow people tried to make an argument, twisting these responses into some weird form of intolerance as if the people making this argument also live by that standard. Stop. You don't tolerated everything or everyone. The idea that those who are "intolerant" should by definition tolerate everything is not only impractical, but it's simply wrong. And tolerance also doesn't mean you can't have an opinion or speak it.

If you are against Jedi values or beliefs we tolerate your opinions, your differences, etc. but we don't have to share them. And we can still be friends and even family without doing so. If you can't handle Jedi voicing a strong opinion that is anti-trump then that's on you. It's against what we believe. Period. Nazi isn't a slur. It's an idea. I include myself in the number of Jedi who think Nazism is a bad idea and one that should be fought against (doesn't mean physical). It's not an idea that should be tolerated, just like Russian meddling in US democracy shouldn't be tolerated. And if Trump isn't doing anything about it, and is willing to benefit from it then he's part of that problem. The same logic applies, like it or not, to Nazis. If you're not a Nazi then don't support them. If you're not a Nazi then speak against it just like you wanted people to speak against Steam and if not you say we're (Jedi) all taking the same side against you. But ironically, that whole thing got missed. We welcome sith, but don't get it wrong. We don't have to welcome Nazis or anyone who spreads hate; not just because its against TOS but because it's against who we are. And I will always support my fellow Jedi in speaking against corruption and moral bankruptcy (which Trump has gone bankrupt 6 times and morally so much much more).

But that being said... it is wrong to specifically attack anyone or single someone out as being a Nazi, a racist, or anything else. However, its not wrong to attack the IDEA and that's what we should stay focused on. It's not wrong to attack the idea of Trumpism. It's not wrong to attack the idea of white nationalism or white supremacy. And if you want to equate one to another, you should be able to do so because this site allows free speech. If you disagree then come with logic and reason and let's duke it out. One person gets frustrated and doesn't want to debate. Another person gets frustrated and wants to derail. Same thing in my opinion. If you want to fight, fight. If you want to flee, flee. But let's respect each other because each person here, in my opinion, has earned it. And if you can't understand someone else's frustrations don't expect anyone to understand yours. Steamboat was frustrated out of a sense of loyalty to a higher ideal of what Jediism should be. If you're not a Jedi maybe you can't fully understand that. I can though. I don't want a Palpatine right under my nose and be expected not to say anything. To at least some of us, this is what Trump represents. If you can't at least try to understand that then that's on you. It's not on us to lower our standards for ourselves. And its not for us to ignore the rise of Naziism and white supremacy under Trump.

Does that make you a Nazi? No.

But if there was a Jedi fighting with Palpatine and Vader AFTER (keyword) Order 66 NO ONE would think that person was a Jedi. So how is this any different? If you knowingly support (meaning you're all in on everything Trump wants to do and is doing) Trump after everything he has done and is doing, and you're a Jedi, then how do you defend your beliefs against the very person you support? How do you manage that conflict of ideals? Pragmatism? There has to some line that evil cannot cross before you decide to stop fighting for it and start fighting against it.

At the same time... we must be balanced and measured in how we fight so that we don't become what we oppose. A wise man once said...

Deimos: You can't judge X amount of people based on just 1
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05 Sep 2019 00:53 #343290 by _Vergere_

VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I thought jedi were supposed to be neutral when it came to politics? Only the Sith take sides! Lol


I would have to agree. Jedi ought to be apolitical.


Listen well: Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask is a trick.
You will find no truth in me.

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05 Sep 2019 04:36 #343313 by Rex
There's no such thing as apolitical, just lazy.
Your beliefs obviously impact your position on policy, and thus who you ought to vote for. Caring to participate enough to learn who represents you best (or a lack thereof), is your responsibility as a citizen and as a person with beliefs.
How those beliefs turn into which person you vote for (or vote against) is something else.

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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05 Sep 2019 10:29 #343316 by Kobos
I half agree Rex, I try "try" to vote on principal as possible. Last election I wrote in Bernie because I could not in good faith vote for Hillary. Particularly given, I still hold the opinion she was given the nomination unfairly. However, as far as this campaign has begun I cannot believe how much Bernie has shifted from the principles he was consistent on in his tenure as a senator. I was a big fan of Tulsi Gabbard but again it kinda looks like we are going to get left wing elite (Biden) as the choice again. This leaves me at the point of vote to beat Trump, for someone I believe is not competent to be the president. Meaning his cabinet will run the country entirely, I believe George HW Bush is an example of a cabinet running the country and that concerns me. Either side it comes from, people not elected running the republic bothers me (yes it happens every Persident it is just a matter of how far). So right now I do not know where I stand as a moderate voter and that is not an uncommon view point on a national level.w

Much Love, Respect, and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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05 Sep 2019 11:16 #343317 by Lumella
You cannot be a Sith when you support Trump either , if a Sith does support Trump he or she has not learned shit from Palpatine , as for Jedi supporting Trump , please....in what way does that guy even sound serious , i think there are some very clever people behind that puppet holding the strings , i know he is not all bad but guys ... use your common sense , its such a joy to the world if you do!
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05 Sep 2019 14:40 #343324 by ZealotX

_Vergere_ wrote:

VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I thought jedi were supposed to be neutral when it came to politics? Only the Sith take sides! Lol


I would have to agree. Jedi ought to be apolitical.


huh? When have Jedi ever not been involved in politics?

Perhaps the terms we're using are a bit complicated. I could agree that Jedi shouldn't be partisan. We shouldn't be so on either party that we can't disagree with that party in support of our own values. Jedi > political party.

In the movies it was more so democracy vs autocracy. And there was that whole rebellion thing. But politics is what sets the stage. It either fixes the problems that Jedi respond to, or it creates them. Part of the problem with Anakin was that he got tired of waiting for democratic consensus. Democracy is more so the light side approach. He didn't have the patience for that.

We, as Jedi, should understand and appreciate the value of democracy and the patience that it takes to make it work. In Episode I, the Jedi were going to settle a trade dispute on behalf of the Senate. Entirely political. What else could you call it? So the temple in canon has always had a close relationship to politics in much the same way that the Catholic church was involved in Rome and if you look back in human history kings often have a priest or someone close to them acting as council.

Here is a modern example of the Dalai Lama expressing his political opinions:
www.dalailama.com/messages/environment/politics-and-environment

See how his beliefs are expressed through his politics? This is how it should be. There's nothing wrong with being part of the conversation or being heard on matters that concern millions and billions of people. And what if, a crazy thing happened, and all the environmentalists became Jedi and we all decided to be so apolitical that we didn't vote. Who would vote to protect the environment? Who would pressure politicians to write laws and regulations that reduce carbon emissions? This is our world and we're all responsible for what happens. Choosing to do nothing doesn't relieve us of that responsibility. In fact I think it makes it more our fault if things go bad. A knight is sworn to valor. But every war is political so imagine if knights just sat every war out. Where is the valor in that? Could you call them knights? Isn't fighting like their main function?

We can be paragons of all the virtues in the world but if we don't stand and fight for anything then I would struggle to take us seriously. I'm not saying go start a militia and join Antifa. There's more than one way to fight. And people are certainly fighting for bad policies that hurt people. Why not fight for and support good policies that help people?
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05 Sep 2019 15:09 #343325 by ZealotX

Lumella wrote: You cannot be a Sith when you support Trump either , if a Sith does support Trump he or she has not learned shit from Palpatine , as for Jedi supporting Trump , please....in what way does that guy even sound serious , i think there are some very clever people behind that puppet holding the strings , i know he is not all bad but guys ... use your common sense , its such a joy to the world if you do!


please try to avoid cursing.

But yeah. I'm not sure why sith wouldn't support Trump. Why should they care what happens to brown kids, farmers, truck drivers, factory workers, the environment, Puerto Ricans, etc.? Maybe sith would rather be allies with Russia and North Korea. I'm sure they could appreciate a fellow sith using the presidency to boost his own brand, his properties, offer pardons for breaking the law for his own aides while having a zero tolerance policy for illegal immigrants, etc. I would think Trump would be a hero among sith; a kind of greatness that ignores all other people, kind of a legendary sociopath with almost zero empathy. He cares so little even for his own children that his personal assistant Madeleine Westerhout resigned after she couldn't help dishing tea on how little he cares about Tiffany. Ivanka is lucky that she looks so good.

as far as strings... good luck with that. Trump's strings are all financial. Trump therefore is forced to listen to people who can take away his wealth and that's Vladimir Putin via Deutsche Bank. So it's fairly clear who is pulling his strings which is why Putin was motivated to help him get elected. He was already compromised through his debts and that's why a blind trust was never really an option for him.

But anyone else?? Trump is barely smart enough to realize that he SHOULD listen to other people. That's why so many of his advisers resign. Because why? He thinks he knows everything and can't stand being wrong. He thinks you can blow up hurricanes and used a sharpe to make it look like Alabama was in the path of Dorian in what's now known as #Sharpiegate.

Then there's the fact that Trump can basically order hits on his political enemies simply by talking about them at his rallies. And nameless, faceless, zombie-like crazies, will launch attacks on his behalf. If Trump wasn't incompetent and not a "stable genius" he would be like the friggin' Sithari. But he's a silver spoon fed moron.
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05 Sep 2019 16:29 #343332 by Uzima Moto
Personally, IMO the only political position a practitioner of the Light could endorse is one of Liberty and Justice, and the maintenance of the balance between them.. which would exclude more than just Trump..

Democracy can't be the virtue, like any other system of govermnent, it can be corrupted into Despotism.. even while maintaining "democratic processes"..

Two-Party domination of federal politics(one-party states vs one-party states), legal protection of corporate persons and special classes, the requirement of government permission and licensing to exercise your rights, regulations used as entrenchments by Corporate Monopolists.. all of these are forms of Despotism that have been established "democratically"..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
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