What is the force?

More
27 Aug 2019 02:23 - 27 Aug 2019 02:24 #342402 by Uzima Moto
Replied by Uzima Moto on topic What is the force?

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: Psychic Phenomena isn't the same as pseudoscience..

Really depends who you ask. There is surely no shortage of people and organizations that will pretend that it has scientific merit, make up nonsensical models of it, construct something pretty much exactly as in any other pseudoscience.


Flat Earth is pseudoscience.. People may falsely claim they have a working theory that is verifiable through scientific testing.. but the phenomena itself hasn't been completely debunked to be called pseudoscience.. partly because there isn't one unified theory of why it happens..

Are you saying Flat Earth has been "completely debunked", then? Convenient how this can happen so easily with pseudoscientific nonsense you have no investment in but suddenly gets strictly impossible once your very own woo is under consideration...

As for there being no unified theory of why "it happens"... That may well change sometime after the day a credible recording of "it happening" is made. Normally, if the claim comes with a prediction that warrants a realizable test, and the test is performed, it returns negative. James Randi literally made half a career out of performing those tests by doing little more than promising a grand reward to anyone whose test wouldn't fail like the rest of them do.


Oh, I'm not saying there isn't any scientific merit to it. Not in the slightest.. I'm saying a workable hypothesis as to why these things occur hasn't been publicised. Neither from psychics or modern scientists.. I have my own, but it isn't public, more research and testing is needed..

So, unlike flat vs round earth, the science here is unsettled, though I'm sure folks like to think it is lol.. has there been any pseudoscience used to support it. Probably.. but that doesn't entirely debunk the phenomena.. it's not a matter of bias.. it's just the situation at hand.. it's easy to dismiss Flat Earth theory because there are counter models that demonstrate its falsehood. As far as I'm aware, there are no counter explanations for psychic and astral phenomena..

As for Mr. Randi, I'd have to call his method into question. I'm not sure everyone who actually practices these ideals would take his test just to prove a point they feel is already proven itself to them. Just for monetary compensation?.. and $1000 at that.. that's a low ball.. a million might catch some eyes lol.. but I wouldn't take his test. Mostly because I have nothing to prove to him. I'm trying to figure it out still myself lol..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
Last edit: 27 Aug 2019 02:24 by Uzima Moto.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 Aug 2019 08:47 - 27 Aug 2019 08:56 #342415 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the force?

Uzima Moto wrote: As far as I'm aware, there are no counter explanations for psychic and astral phenomena..

You know what else there isn't any of? The phenomena themselves. There is any amount of tales about them. Some are barely coherent, others are lies by fraudsters uncovered as such, yet more are more easily explained by mistakes in interpretation or perception - as opposed to a literal suspension of how all of the universe works in just the right way as to confirm someone's personal biases or fulfill their wishes otherwise. And, granted, a few tales are left unaddressed because it's very easy and cheap to keep making them and after all of the ones that held no water it seems sort of a waste to keep investigating them, too. But not a single one that was tested and confirmed, let alone explained by literally everything we know about the world being completely false.


As for Mr. Randi, I'd have to call his method into question.

And what method is that exactly? You do understand that he (or his organization) used to agree with the claimant on what an appropriate test of their claim would be, right? It's not like he invited people to get scrutinized against their will in ways they'd find inappropriate. Some would only come to call the test inappropriate sometime after failing it, despite agreeing to it.


I'm not sure everyone who actually practices these ideals would take his test just to prove a point they feel is already proven itself to them.

I'm sure not everybody did. It's easy to make a claim to oneself and then do jack all to test it, and people are lazy, so most of them would have done just that. Maybe that would bias the sample in favour of what ever character it takes to accept the challenge. Do you think that was the sort of people who knew they were going to fail and yet went on to take the public humiliation anyway? I don't think so. Some were frauds that eventually convinced themselves, some innocently believed their own nonsense like you do. None of them, however, were vindicated. Maybe you would have. But you didn't take the challenge back when it was still up.


Just for monetary compensation?.. and $1000 at that.. that's a low ball.. a million might catch some eyes lol.. but I wouldn't take his test. Mostly because I have nothing to prove to him. I'm trying to figure it out still myself lol..

And one would keep the name and fame of being the first person to demonstrate such phenomena, too, but I understand that this may be intimidating. It was a thousand when Randi first made his offer in 1964, but it soon increased to 10k, then to 100k. Between 1996 and 2015 it actually was a million USD. I'm sure many have no need of such amounts of money. It's not like research into the paranormal could be funded that way. Or, I don't know, maybe any kind of charity... Perhaps you are due some envy for your resolve to resist such worldly temptations.
Randi's price is not on offer anymore after well over a thousand claimants failing to take it home. Australian sceptics are offering 100k Australian dollars now. Not as enticing, I admit, but still good enough for a couple hundred more to fail. But who knows, maybe there is someone out there who could prove magic to the world once and for all but has neither the greed nor the imagination to think of a second motive to try.

Last edit: 27 Aug 2019 08:56 by Gisteron.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 Aug 2019 10:34 #342422 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic What is the force?

Kazat0 wrote: finally a real answer i wanted peoples opinions about what it is. not dodging the question by saying "we don't know" i wanted to hear what people believed it was


I think there are a number of reasons why you get the 'I don't know' response. Firstly there are people who haven't been here that long so are pretty new and are abundantly aware that they don't know the answer to your OP because they haven't learnt it yet.

Secondly there are those who have been a for quite a while and realise that they REALLY don't know the answer to the OP :laugh:.

Think about science, and what we've learnt from it. The atom is the smallest thing in the universe. No wait, it has Protons and Electrons in it, but there is nothing smaller than that. No wait, they're made up of Quarks. So are quarks the smallest things in the universe now? See what I'm getting at?

There is always another layer. Every time you think you fully know or understand something, there's a new discovery. The Force is like that. The more you study these things, the less you realise that you actually know about them.

And then there is Proteus, who probably gave the best answer to your question that anyone could give:

Proteus wrote: What is the Force not?


I wonder how many people actually get the point of that statement :blink:

Welcome Team, IP Team, and Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

IP Journal | IP Journal 2 | AP Journal | Open Journal

'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rex, Uzima Moto, Kelrax Lorcken, KarrMando

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 02:45 #342563 by Kazat0
Replied by Kazat0 on topic What is the force?

Brick wrote:

Kazat0 wrote: finally a real answer i wanted peoples opinions about what it is. not dodging the question by saying "we don't know" i wanted to hear what people believed it was


I think there are a number of reasons why you get the 'I don't know' response. Firstly there are people who haven't been here that long so are pretty new and are abundantly aware that they don't know the answer to your OP because they haven't learnt it yet.

Secondly there are those who have been a for quite a while and realise that they REALLY don't know the answer to the OP :laugh:.

Think about science, and what we've learnt from it. The atom is the smallest thing in the universe. No wait, it has Protons and Electrons in it, but there is nothing smaller than that. No wait, they're made up of Quarks. So are quarks the smallest things in the universe now? See what I'm getting at?

There is always another layer. Every time you think you fully know or understand something, there's a new discovery. The Force is like that. The more you study these things, the less you realise that you actually know about them.

And then there is Proteus, who probably gave the best answer to your question that anyone could give:

Proteus wrote: What is the Force not?


I wonder how many people actually get the point of that statement :blink:



Wow just bravo. Excellent answer 10/10. Thank u for that (not sarcasm btw)

"The road to good and evil is wide and filled with many but the path to neutrality is narrow and empty."
-Nichos Skywalker
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Brick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 17:54 #342662 by Uzima Moto
Replied by Uzima Moto on topic What is the force?

Gisteron wrote: You know what else there isn't any of? The phenomena themselves. There is any amount of tales about them. Some are barely coherent, others are lies by fraudsters uncovered as such, yet more are more easily explained by mistakes in interpretation or perception - as opposed to a literal suspension of how all of the universe works in just the right way as to confirm someone's personal biases or fulfill their wishes otherwise. And, granted, a few tales are left unaddressed because it's very easy and cheap to keep making them and after all of the ones that held no water it seems sort of a waste to keep investigating them, too. But not a single one that was tested and confirmed, let alone explained by literally everything we know about the world being completely false.


Idk what claims you've been looking at, but I haven't seen anything that literally suspended what we know of how the universe works. I have seen very coherent theories on how these things take place. Mine is mostly based on those, with successful results. So maybe you've been looking in the wrong places..


And what method is that exactly? You do understand that he (or his organization) used to agree with the claimant on what an appropriate test of their claim would be, right? It's not like he invited people to get scrutinized against their will in ways they'd find inappropriate. Some would only come to call the test inappropriate sometime after failing it, despite agreeing to it.


Well, thinking that money entices everyone of that persuasion. I could almost guarantee that anyone who could demonstrate these things would be marginally interested by money or fame.


I'm sure not everybody did. It's easy to make a claim to oneself and then do jack all to test it, and people are lazy, so most of them would have done just that. Maybe that would bias the sample in favour of what ever character it takes to accept the challenge. Do you think that was the sort of people who knew they were going to fail and yet went on to take the public humiliation anyway? I don't think so. Some were frauds that eventually convinced themselves, some innocently believed their own nonsense like you do. None of them, however, were vindicated. Maybe you would have. But you didn't take the challenge back when it was still up.


You can argue with my theories all day, but the results tell me I'm on the right track.. and like me, any serious practitioner has done some testing, material scientists and staticians don't corner the market on correct testing. Your friend Mr. Randi only went after some of the high profile cases.. but that's a SMALL percentile of practitioners.. me personally, I had never heard of him until you mentioned him. Seeing as I didn't follow those high profile "psychics" that you seem to suggest are the standard.. I had my own questions about Sylvia Brown after reading a little of her work and seeing her in action.. so I didn't follow her closely. I heard she was supposed to be tested by somebody but it just made me laugh..


And one would keep the name and fame of being the first person to demonstrate such phenomena, too, but I understand that this may be intimidating. It was a thousand when Randi first made his offer in 1964, but it soon increased to 10k, then to 100k. Between 1996 and 2015 it actually was a million USD. I'm sure many have no need of such amounts of money. It's not like research into the paranormal could be funded that way. Or, I don't know, maybe any kind of charity... Perhaps you are due some envy for your resolve to resist such worldly temptations.
Randi's price is not on offer anymore after well over a thousand claimants failing to take it home. Australian sceptics are offering 100k Australian dollars now. Not as enticing, I admit, but still good enough for a couple hundred more to fail. But who knows, maybe there is someone out there who could prove magic to the world once and for all but has neither the greed nor the imagination to think of a second motive to try.


I'm starting to think most either haven't heard, or don't care about people offering money to prove these phenomena to the general population. Fame is a worse motivator than money. If I worked up the ability in order for them to test it. I'd make them sign a non-disclosure agreement. I know you think it's selfish, but that's just your point of view. Unaware of some things that practitioners, such as myself, are completely understanding of..

All of us know about the Sleeping Prophet and how people's greedy use of his abilities caused him actual physical pain and suffering to the point he HIGHLY limited who had access to him..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 19:27 - 28 Aug 2019 19:37 #342686 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the force?

Uzima Moto wrote: Idk what claims you've been looking at, but I haven't seen anything that literally suspended what we know of how the universe works.

Weird, I distinctly remember you telling us all about how you were interfering with a radio signal to "scramble it" or to "slow it down" to almost a halt through "ethereal" interference but no physical. That would throw out pretty much all of classical and quantum electrodynamics out the window (and by extension all of chemistry), but judging by that description maybe it wasn't a radio signal after all. Or maybe I'm just misremembering it all and you aren't telling of routine experiences of the physically impossible.

Last edit: 28 Aug 2019 19:37 by Gisteron.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 22:25 #342697 by Uzima Moto
Replied by Uzima Moto on topic What is the force?

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: Idk what claims you've been looking at, but I haven't seen anything that literally suspended what we know of how the universe works.

Weird, I distinctly remember you telling us all about how you were interfering with a radio signal to "scramble it" or to "slow it down" to almost a halt through "ethereal" interference but no physical. That would throw out pretty much all of classical and quantum electrodynamics out the window (and by extension all of chemistry), but judging by that description maybe it wasn't a radio signal after all. Or maybe I'm just misremembering it all and you aren't telling of routine experiences of the physically impossible.


Hmm, apparently it doesn't throw out physics then. That's the other possibility.. that there's more layers to reality that our primitive science has yet to be fully aware of.. can you describe exactly how what we know was discarded with what I presented?..

If natural mediums can interfere with a radio signal, why not "non-material" mediums? Is there an actual, scientific reason as to why it's impossible as you say?

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 22:35 - 28 Aug 2019 22:37 #342699 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic What is the force?
I always find this debate an interesting one because it really digs deep into the crux of most religions and unveils what I consider to be a great truth in life. In religion everyone is looking for some greater truth, many will find it but in the realest sense it doesn't come from the texts, it comes from the actions and reflections of the self. Jediism like other religions might be able to tell you where to look to trigger this growth in yourself but it does not garuntee it.

I have my ideas on the Force but even those are very open ended more like guesses because in reality it's just something I believe exists. Something that ties all life together, even if it is just a minute immesurable energy that flows between things as they are born and degrade. Maybe, it is the chemical processes that occur in all life. I do not know it's nature (on some level I do not know if I want to, it takes an awesome amount of time to figure out instead of just live :) ), I do not know that we will ever figure out a physical provable explanation or way to test it.

Just some thoughts I always have in these discussions. Some time it is not so much about the whats, but more about the whys.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Last edit: 28 Aug 2019 22:37 by Kobos. Reason: Finger cast typos.........
The following user(s) said Thank You: Uzima Moto

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2019 23:26 #342701 by Kazat0
Replied by Kazat0 on topic What is the force?

Kobos wrote: I always find this debate an interesting one because it really digs deep into the crux of most religions and unveils what I consider to be a great truth in life. In religion everyone is looking for some greater truth, many will find it but in the realest sense it doesn't come from the texts, it comes from the actions and reflections of the self. Jediism like other religions might be able to tell you where to look to trigger this growth in yourself but it does not garuntee it.

I have my ideas on the Force but even those are very open ended more like guesses because in reality it's just something I believe exists. Something that ties all life together, even if it is just a minute immesurable energy that flows between things as they are born and degrade. Maybe, it is the chemical processes that occur in all life. I do not know it's nature (on some level I do not know if I want to, it takes an awesome amount of time to figure out instead of just live :) ), I do not know that we will ever figure out a physical provable explanation or way to test it.

Just some thoughts I always have in these discussions. Some time it is not so much about the whats, but more about the whys.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos


nice answer thanks

"The road to good and evil is wide and filled with many but the path to neutrality is narrow and empty."
-Nichos Skywalker
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Aug 2019 04:33 - 29 Aug 2019 04:36 #342718 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the force?

Uzima Moto wrote: can you describe exactly how what we know was discarded with what I presented?..

Yes, I can. And to an extent, I did in that thread. I'm not going to flood this one with it, too. Feel free to go back to it and re-read it. Feel free to inquire for clarification there, too, I'm sure I haven't addressed everything nor address all I did in all of the detail that might have been called for either.


If natural mediums can interfere with a radio signal, why not "non-material" mediums? Is there an actual, scientific reason as to why it's impossible as you say?

No clue. Can't recall anyone making that claim. In fact, pretty sure if I said anything on the matter (no pun intended) it would've been the opposite, seeing as radio waves themselves are an example of something non-material that cannot help but interact with both themselves and with matter.

Last edit: 29 Aug 2019 04:36 by Gisteron.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: KobosBrick