What is the force?

Deimos wrote: That depends on what you consider "known". I would attribute Kelrax's statements to more of a personal opinion rather something that is known as I define something as known if there is evidence for said claim.

I think what you are referring to here is objective knowledge vs subjective knowledge. Objective knowledge can be verified while subjective knowledge (opinion as you say) generally cannot because it is a form of logical argumentation. But no matter what form the knowledge takes is still requires "knowing" and so the idea that the force is unknowable seems to not hold water. If its unknowable why study it? It begs the question as to how one knows its unknowable in the first place doesn't it?

Perhaps a more apt name would be obscure? Unknown rather than unknowable indicating that it can be understood but never fully? Just thinking out loud really.

VixensVengeance wrote: Objective knowledge can be verified while subjective knowledge (opinion as you say) generally cannot because it is a form of logical argumentation.

If I may nitpick, all of mathematics is exclusively logical argumentation with literally nothing else behind it whatsoever. It is arguably still one of the only things that can be verified, precisely because logical argumentation is all it takes. It is subjective in the sense that it takes subjects to compose it, but in that same sense everything else is also.


Anyway, to address (be it in an unsatisfactory manner) the OP, I'm curious about this part:

Kazat0 wrote: I think there might be a sort of energy/force we don't know about yet and can't explain until later (like midiclorians [sic] in SW)

Midichlorians in the fiction (assuming a canon that acknowledges the prequel films) have a profound impact on the bodies they reside in, and their environment anywhere from immediate surroundings and up to the entire galaxy. Simple blood tests that call for as little control as real world blood sugar tests can reveal not only their presence, but even their concentration.
It is not much of a concession to say that there may well be a number of forces we have taken no account of yet. If anything, it'd be more surprising to some of us if there were not. Do you believe there might be "a sort of energy/force we don't know about yet and can't explain until later" that has anything like that much influence on the world? If so, how could it have kept escaping our detection until now?

To keep the post from being overly critical of any notion of a Force, I think that if the term is to mean anything, we are better off not trying to use it to refer to some sort of magical power flowing through the universe. We know as much as we can know anything about nature that there is no such thing and we do nothing but look silly insisting that there is. Instead, I believe, we are better off focusing on the Force as a guiding principle perhaps, a metaphorical expression. If we must keep it at all, that is. Frankly, we raise more questions throwing the term around than we answer. It comes up and immediately requires clarification. Why we wouldn't instead just get on with saying what we mean and employ the fiction-derived term is a mystery of much similar caliber.

Thanks for the question K. Believe it or not we get this question a lot. As a modern day Jeddist - we have the right as humans to pick and choose what we call the Force. For some it God for some it’s the Force of their belief. The Force can be your choice in things in Real life. Some people come to be a Jeddist from all type of backgrounds - from different faiths. Some have a background in one and some in several. What is the Force? I can tell you to ME what is the Force I follow. I can tell you what I’ve learned and what I’ve experienced and that will only be the tip - of the iceberg. We believe in the inherit worth of all and some times that includes people’s religions and practices. Funny thing / a Jeddist is RARLEY in competition with anything. The ability to choose and to “sync” ourself is a gift each human can have. The Force isn’t one answer ... my answer ... or theirs ... that’s YOUR choice to make. I hope some time with a few different Jeddist here can show that there really isn’t a competition as far as definitions are concerned. If you ever need anything I’m always available to serve. May the Force be with you

If we were to describe the Force as a metaphor for the countless seen and unseen relationships and interactions between various natural phenomena, then we could postulate that it is indeed unknowable insofar as the whole of it cannot be grasped by any one person. There is so much we still ignore that “ineffable” is an apt term to describe it.

If we were to further describe the ways natural phenomena interact with each other as the “will of the Force”, then we could say that no phenomena outside of how the world already operates is possible.

Except we already know that we don’t know it all, that we cannot make any absolute conclusions. Whatever conclusions we draw come from “working knowledge”, and are useful insofar as they help describe and predict phenomena.

As human beings that are constantly engaged in drawing new connections between seemingly unrelated factors, we can grasp these connections in ways that are more useful to us (science, technology). That in itself is magical.

We can then conclude that things described as “magick” or “paranormal phenomena”, would be the result of people skilled at drawing and harnessing connections others are unable to, in a manner that renders them effective at impacting visible change in the world.

We cannot, however, conclude exactly what this phenomena can be, not what it cannot be, due to lack of evidence. However, as far as working knowledge goes, it is infinitely more within our skill set to use a magical box of wires and electrical impulses to send an email, than to attempt to make the contact directly through telepathy.

So don’t lose sleep over trying to develop unproven magical powers. There is a host of more known abilities that you can develop reliably, and that can aid in creating a huge impact in your life and for your world.

Gisteron wrote: If I may nitpick, all of mathematics is exclusively logical argumentation with literally nothing else behind it whatsoever. It is arguably still one of the only things that can be verified, precisely because logical argumentation is all it takes. It is subjective in the sense that it takes subjects to compose it, but in that same sense everything else is also.

Well yes but I would consider mathematics objective knowledge in this context. Something that is demonstrably and independently verifiable. However the experience of mathematics is a subjective one. For example I can take a 5 pound weight and put it on a scale and show it to be 5 pounds. Anyone can do this so its objective knowledge. However if a 5 year old child picks up the weight he may say its heavy. But if a weightlifter picks up that same weight he would say its light. The idea of heavy or light is subjective knowledge of the 5 pound weight in this case that can be logically argued from the individual perspective but the standardized measurement of mass by putting it on a scale is objective knowledge.


Beyond that I would agree that The Force can only be considered currently subjective knowledge that cant be verified objectively and thus must be relegated to the realm of speculation. Until objective evidence that can be independently verified of the existence of The force is found, it must be considered nothing more than metaphor. This is not to say that it cant exist out there somewhere as a real force that we have not yet discovered but until that happens we also cant just assert that it exhibits x y or z properties in any objective manner. We also cant assert that it is "unknowable", or even incapable of being fully understood.

VixensVengeance wrote:

Gisteron wrote: If I may nitpick, all of mathematics is exclusively logical argumentation with literally nothing else behind it whatsoever. It is arguably still one of the only things that can be verified, precisely because logical argumentation is all it takes. It is subjective in the sense that it takes subjects to compose it, but in that same sense everything else is also.

Well yes but I would consider mathematics objective knowledge in this context. Something that is demonstrably and independently verifiable. However the experience of mathematics is a subjective one. For example I can take a 5 pound weight and put it on a scale and show it to be 5 pounds. Anyone can do this so its objective knowledge. However if a 5 year old child picks up the weight he may say its heavy. But if a weightlifter picks up that same weight he would say its light. The idea of heavy or light is subjective knowledge of the 5 pound weight in this case that can be logically argued from the individual perspective but the standardized measurement of mass by putting it on a scale is objective knowledge.


Beyond that I would agree that The Force can only be considered currently subjective knowledge that cant be verified objectively and thus must be relegated to the realm of speculation. Until objective evidence that can be independently verified of the existence of The force is found, it must be considered nothing more than metaphor. This is not to say that it cant exist out there somewhere as a real force that we have not yet discovered but until that happens we also cant just assert that it exhibits x y or z properties in any objective manner. We also cant assert that it is "unknowable", or even incapable of being fully understood.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Clergy/122816-does-faith-or-belief-need-evidence-to-exist

For my own part:
It’s the energy of the universe, in the way that science describes energy. It’s in everything, and is everything. It has no personal will, but has movement in line with the physics that dominate it (To clarify, I do not believe we fully understand those physics and may never fully understand them). I don’t believe the Force has it’s own “will” as described in the fiction. I believe the “will” is that of beings which we ascribe as being “Divine”. They are part of the Force (or perhaps on the outside of it? Depends on how you look at our universe ), but not the Force itself.

VixensVengeance wrote: I would consider mathematics objective knowledge in this context. Something that is demonstrably and independently verifiable. However the experience of mathematics is a subjective one. For example I can take a 5 pound weight and put it on a scale and show it to be 5 pounds.

The "pound" is not a mathematical construct, as far as I'm aware. Measuring the weight of a physical object is a scientific tool, not a mathematical one. Granted, one might say that the simple arithmetic it takes to compare a given weight with a reference weight (a.k.a. the "unit") to say that "this weight is five times as heavy as this arbitrary weight I have resolved to call the 'pound'" is provided for us by axiomatic fiat, but I would insist that making useful statements about the world around us is nevertheless the scientific enterprise, whereas mathematics is the study of logical consequences to systems of given or asserted inference rules and definitions. TL;DR: Just because there is a number in there somewhere doesn't make it maths...

That being said, your point - to which I agree, frankly - does not hinge upon it, I just took this for a permission to keep nitpicking some more :silly:

ahh thanks deimos makes sense so like the force could be considered low-level magick?

Gisteron, well actually magickal powers HAVE been discovered and many wiccans/witches practice it. I was saying maybe those powers could be true but it has a scientific explanation we don't know yet.


“Your Ancestors Called it Magic, but You Call it Science. I Come From a Land Where They Are One and the Same.”

― Thor Odinson

Carlos.Martinez3, a church with no real solid definition of the base of their philosophy kinda falls apart (yes the Jedi philosophy revolves entirely around the force)
So you telling me "it can be whatever you want" doesn't actually answer the question.

Alethea finally a real answer i wanted peoples opinions about what it is. not dodging the question by saying "we don't know" i wanted to hear what people believed it was

Kazat0 wrote: magickal powers HAVE been discovered and many wiccans/witches practice it.

No. What wiccans/witches practice are rituals. Those have been invented aplenty, for sure. Woo-woo has been asserted, too, and, somehow, the better ways we find to document events the fewer instances of sorcery do we record. We have discovered so much at this point, that what room is left for the magical powers asserted back in the day is so small as to demonstrably be of no significance to our daily lives.

I was saying maybe those powers could be true but it has a scientific explanation we don't know yet.

No, they really couldn't. We would have long modelled them by now if they could. "Explanation" may mean a lot of things, but the least we would have at this point is the postulation of their existence and mechanisms by which they can be manipulated so as to fix the magnitude of their influence on observable events. What we have instead is an ever more refined model of nature the gaps in which are so small at this pont as to leave no room for anything of daily significance.

“Your Ancestors Called it Magic, but You Call it Science. I Come From a Land Where They Are One and the Same.”

― Thor Odinson

Friendly reminder that not every comic book out there is an accurate record of real people or events...

I've been having an.. experience.. as of late.. like a sort of "tapping in".. it's almost the same feeling I use to get during deep meditation.. but slightly more.. pervasive.. something like a universal living flow.. as if everything is connected and energized by the same Force.. from people to events.. everything just seems to flow into everything else.. it all feels alive and conscious..

Mind and Heart, Masculine and Feminine, Adam and Eve.. what difference is there?..

What is "The Force".. it's everything.. It Is.. material and beyond material.. Fullness and the cause of It..

As far as telekinesis, or other supernatural concepts in general, it'd be better to ask why it wouldn't exist.. or why do we start from the position that these things are definitively false?.. which isn't truly a neutral position..

Personally, I'm certain these things are possible and is merely a different science.. though in the "Age of Two Fish".. the Natural and Supernatural are seen as opposites instead, and the unified reality goes unseen..

Uzima Moto wrote: As far as telekinesis, or other supernatural concepts in general, it'd be better to ask why it wouldn't exist.. or why do we start from the position that these things are definitively false?.. which isn't truly a neutral position..

If we were only now starting to investigate the question, starting from either position would be slightly unfair, admittedly. I say slightly, because there is a case to be made for employing the null hypothesis until further notice. Alas, we are not only now starting to investigate claims of telekinesis or the supernatural more broadly, and the evidence against such things has been piling up for quite some time now, to a point where even "reasonable doubt" is becoming increasingly laughable. It is not the "things themselves" that are false, mind you, only about every claim made to them. The simplest explanation to why all these claims keep consistently failing so far seems to be that there is no substance to them, but it may of course in principle be some convoluted nefarious trick the universe is playing on us all to deceive us into thinking that it is all nonsense when it really isn't. I for one choose to go with the simpler explanation and wait for the data set to grow more consistent with an alternative one...

To be fair, if you believe in the force as some sort of literal power that lets you do things that break the laws of nature, there would be no way of scientifically proving it, so the point is moot. If you think it is coherent with science, you're necessarily arguing that science just isn't quite there yet for some reason.

Science works not by necessarily proving something is right, but by making explanatory mechanisms that have predictive power and testing that against experimental evidence. Because of that reliance on experimental evidence, it isn't objective in the same sense as math: I mean you can't find the pure number 5 in nature. I've yet to hear any well-conceived experiment involving magic that falsifies the current scientific understanding. This doesn't necessarily preclude magic (the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence), but practically it does (I mean, I don't believe in the tooth fairy)

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: As far as telekinesis, or other supernatural concepts in general, it'd be better to ask why it wouldn't exist.. or why do we start from the position that these things are definitively false?.. which isn't truly a neutral position..

If we were only now starting to investigate the question, starting from either position would be slightly unfair, admittedly. I say slightly, because there is a case to be made for employing the null hypothesis until further notice. Alas, we are not only now starting to investigate claims of telekinesis or the supernatural more broadly, and the evidence against such things has been piling up for quite some time now, to a point where even "reasonable doubt" is becoming increasingly laughable. It is not the "things themselves" that are false, mind you, only about every claim made to them. The simplest explanation to why all these claims keep consistently failing so far seems to be that there is no substance to them, but it may of course in principle be some convoluted nefarious trick the universe is playing on us all to deceive us into thinking that it is all nonsense when it really isn't. I for one choose to go with the simpler explanation and wait for the data set to grow more consistent with an alternative one...

Fair enough, however, I'm not sure all claims that could be made have been, nor that all claims made have been debunked for certain yet..

Kazat0 wrote: Alethea finally a real answer i wanted peoples opinions about what it is. not dodging the question by saying "we don't know" i wanted to hear what people believed it was

I for one did not "dodge" your question. Why is "I dont know" not an acceptable answer? Is your goal here to listen to different explanations and then just pick one that sounds good to you to believe? If so that is an incredibly lazy and inefficient way to gain knowledge.

With Vixen on this "I don't know" should be an acceptable answer. Otherwise you force conjecture witch arguably can be more harmful than no answer.