Ending the Myth of Racism

ZealotX wrote: It's not stereotyping any more than saying most of the black people in my home city live on the west side. Is that stereotyping?

No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

ZealotX wrote: No, you're confusing ignorance with experience and statistics. So the white guy... is the ONLY guy I ever see doing the cleaning. If he was an employee you'd think at some point you'd see someone else; especially if he goes on vacation, takes sick days, etc. Because he's by himself and isn't a younger guy, its a safe assumption having knowledge of other white people who have talked to me about doing a similar business. As an owner you're going to be making more than an employee which makes cleaning a more attractive proposition.

Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

ZealotX wrote: I wonder what would happen if you unconvinced yourself that she's a racist (even though she said all whites are basically inherently racist) and watched the whole thing again from part 1. And just listen. Don't react. Just listen to everything she says. I'm not saying you didn't before and I'm not saying your reaction isn't natural. But we heard it two different ways so maybe... maybe even her saying all whites are racist is about when your brain switched modes and felt like attacking her. And unfortunately for her, that's normal. She gets racist hate mail all the time, especially under Trump. Why? Because she's an ANTI-racism activist and causes people to confront these issues in a way in which they feel bad and people don't like that. And she's raw and unapologetic. If she meant what you thought she was implying about immigrants... she would have said it. And to you, even I'M sounding racist (I guess), and that amazes me, so again.. can we double check, intellectually, our perspective? Please? Maybe we're both missing something.

Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Not in my opinion. As we discussed in PM earlier, we don't need any more town criers for these ideas. We need those willing to act, willing to stand up, willing to do the work and fight the battles that need fought. I understand she is an educator and a diversity training whatchamacallit. But not once did she try to educate anyone in that interview. Not once did she invite people to her training. Not once did she provide any resources, or videos or suggestions on how to better the issue she sees. She was just a billowy windbag full of hot air like anyone else that complains but does nothing to fix it.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

ZealotX wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

It wasn’t the worst job either...

VixensVengeance wrote: No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

I swear on all that is holy and sacred that she did not say only Mexican pick avocados. She didn't even say there would be no one to do that if they left. Again she was talking about ECONOMICS which means that companies wouldn't necessarily get replacement workers at the same PAY RATE which would increase the cost of avocados. That's what she's talking about; the economics of it. She didn't say there would be no more avocados at all lol. That would be ridiculous. It's the cost that concerns us just like it was the economics behind slavery that led to the civil war; not the idea that if blacks didn't pick cotton no one else would. It's about the MONEY!

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

VixensVengeance wrote: I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

See... You're saying that like we're disagreeing on this point. I never said illegal immigrants should have the same rights. But they're not being given "Regular jobs". They're being exploited. Because they're illegal they're being paid way less than the legal minimum wage. These wages are far below what citizens or legal residents would typically work for; hence... "jobs no one else wants to do". Saying that isn't the same as saying "no one else will pick avocados" but rather "no one else wants to pick avocados at $5/hr." It might even be lower than that. I don't know. I think you get the point though. The economic impact is similar to what Walmart is doing with cheap foreign labor. We all benefit from it in reduced costs. If you increase the cost of produce that has huge implications. The US already subsidizes farmers because it understands the economic ramifications. These employers are certainly at fault but that there is an economic benefit is undeniable. Trump shouldn't even deny it because he's hired a lot of them himself. They also pay taxes. So its a bit more complicated than them simply being criminals to me.

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

VixensVengeance wrote: Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

It's not if Trump did this. We know he did. And that IS what she meant because we already know he does this because there have been reports in the media about it. All of this guys's business practices are now pretty much known. So yes, he talks one way to his base and he's never going to talk too much about where his own products are made, how many jobs he's shipped over seas or how many illegals he hires. This is a guy that basically admitted to paying as little taxes as possible. Reports show he's cheated on his taxes too. This is a man who is going to save money whether its legal or not and that started with his father, Fred. People on the left know all about this man and his business practices. And so it may sound like inside jokes but when she said that I instantly knew what she was talking about because we're both reacting to the same information. So that is 100% why she said that and what she was talking about; because Donald Trump hires illegals to staff his properties.

Now that I have a good idea what your thought process was, I can understand how you thought that's what they both meant. But I'm telling you, in all sincerity, that because I am I guess you'd call a liberal progressive or whatever, I understand more of what they're saying because we speak the same liberal dialect if that's what you want to call it. There are things Trump says and does that we're reacting to that his supporters are not and usually ignore. So when you hear our reactions it may not sound right or you may not understand what we're saying or why. But if you ask me I will always explain it for you as best I can. Because at the end of the day its all about understanding. We can disagree. But we should always try to understand each other.

VixensVengeance wrote: Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

lol, again... that's not what she meant. It's not that no one would pick avocados. No one would work at the same PAY. That's the difference and distinction.

VixensVengeance wrote: And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

Yes, I have. It's risky. But the reason people take that risk is because the pay off is typically more than being an employee of the same business. If employers didn't make a margin over what their employees earn well there would be no reason to hire anyone because you would make no profit. In order to make a profit a company has to earn more than its employees. Right? Now if you're a business owner, you have overhead an assets and credit. You have to market and advertise and all that. But businesses are able to pay for all these things because they don't charge minimum wage for cleaning. They may pay an employee that, but that's not how much they're charging a business or homeowner to do the work.

VixensVengeance wrote: Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Jane's work is out there. There are videos. She has a website. The interview was not for that purpose. She was answering the interviewers questions. The interviewer was already familiar with her work. So was I. I'm not new to Jane Elliott. I know her through her work and this is not the first videos I've seen her in. She does more doing than talking. But everyone's not a smooth talking politician. Like I said before, she's raw. She tells it like it is. She's done more to combat racism than I'll do in 10 lifetimes, I'm sure. She's influenced hearts and minds by showing them how it feels to be the "other". That's what her Blue eyes brown eyes exercise was about. She tackled in a way that very few people ever have and identified deeper issues, psychology, that underpins the whole notion of race and racism. Research her. That's how you will "unconvince" yourself that she's a racist. But you have to understand where she's coming from and not take her in sound bytes.

Get know Jane

https://youtu.be/fF9s0as_d_4

In our home we use the word “blind hate.” Truthfully - racism - mine - personally - WAS taught to me. It no longer lives in the life of me or my family. Blind hate sucks.Blind hate hurts. Racism is a hard cup to serve for the masses and an even harder pill to swallow for ourselves. My sister ( wife’s sister) generation ( is not even picking up the words we once used. I never will and will never teach em to any one. To combat hate ... you gotta ... have a game plan. It’s cool and fun to notice it but ... what then ? What do you do when you notice it? What’s your game plan ?

is that really you CM3

ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.

VixensVengeance wrote: ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote:
It wasn’t the worst job either...

OK, that's not fair! Now that you said that I have to know what the worst job was

Of course the whole "why don't black people go back to working in the fields" thing begs another question. Why would poor rural whites not be enough to work those jobs? Don't they want them?

VV, thank you. I realize that sometimes I ask a lot for the sake of discussion and further understanding. So thank you for being patient and willing to meet me half way. I definitely respect that.

Is picking avocados or farming a regular job? I will answer that by saying there is a black market for almost anything there is not a legitimate market for. If people want drugs they'll find someone who sells drugs. You must have seen some TV show where a bunch of Mexicans are standing by the side of the road and a truck comes to pick them up for the day. Capitalist American companies love love love saving money. They exist to make more profit, not to supply anyone (Americans or other) with jobs. They would hire monkeys if they could. We have to understand that. It's part of the reason why CEOs often make extremely large sums of money. So even if you are willing to pay extra for avocados, for tacos, for a lot of food in general, companies will always bet on masses wanting to pay less. It's a competition. Competition is what keeps prices down but to make that happen companies often use inferior materials or an underpaid workforce. That's just how capitalism is.

Here's an example:
https://www.yelp.com/topic/san-jose-how-much-do-i-pay-a-day-laborer-should-i-pick-them-up-from-home-depot-please-share-your-experience

See how the OP mentions nothing about illegal workers and yet people almost immediately start talking about it? And talking about hiring workers waiting outside Home Depot? I just want you to see how baked into the conversation this is. Is she going to save money or is she going to personally enforce the immigration laws when it's not her job? It's against the law but so is driving over the speed limit. If you get caught you may have to pay a fine but in most situations who's going to know? Who's going to tell? Not the workers you're hiring unless some of those workers are legal. What if you can't find enough legal workers? Is it worth the risk of hiring them if they might tell on you for hiring illegals? I think everyone just kinda keeps their mouth shut because while some people have a choice there are others, like many farmers, who try to hire legal workers and simply can't find enough. Seems like this shouldn't be a real problem but check this out...

http://www.eatingwell.com/article/291645/farmers-cant-find-enough-workers-to-harvest-cropsand-fruits-and-vegetables-are-literally-rotting-in-fields/

according to this farmers have lost around $1.3 billion in lost income. And back to the "regular job" thing. Harvests are "seasonal labor". You need people at certain times. Legal workers would rather have regular jobs. They also have to be in proximity to these farms so being close to a farm means being further, most often, from other jobs one might qualify for. I said a lot on that one point so let's move on. But in the end, no one is taking a job from a legal worker if there aren't enough of them to go around. This is what many people are saying and its supported by facts from the agriculture industry.

As far as inner city black people doing seasonal labor instead of selling drugs... I know this was a serious suggestion so I'm going to treat it as such. Um.... no. That would not work. You have to understand the black market and the mentality that drives it. You have to understand survival and the illusion of options. It would take a long time to explain all this but no, seasonal work 1500 miles from where they live is not going to entice any drug dealers to be someone's employee sweating bullets (instead of possibly catching them) in some field. Many of them are already involved in agriculture. It's called marijuana. If they wanted to there is what's known as urban gardening, aquaponics, etc. The problem is the average drug dealer starts out pretty young; sometimes too young for legal employment. Once in "the game" that kid believes they will one day have a chance to become just like the OG, the guy who visibly sits at the top of the local pyramid, who flashes cash and jewelry, and often gives money to people in the community who don't get help from anyone else. So even though they make less than they would at McDonald's they know that there are better opportunities vs what's out there legally with the education that a typical corner boy has. They don't know they would be better off working at McDonald's but then again, not everyone can work at McDonald's either. And when there is a job shortage in a given area, its not like everyone can simply afford to move to a new area with more jobs. Sounds good in theory but it's an investment that takes money and risk. A lot of people don't believe (right or wrong) they can afford to take that risk. Many people are doing it to support family. And those families often rely on low income housing. If the cost of living exceeds their avocado picking income then it wouldn't work. Illegal immigrants on the other hand are probably living with legal family and helping to pay rent, bills, etc. Not the same situation.

I'm poopooing your idea somewhat and I don't like that but please try to understand I have worked through similar thoughts about what other industries could replace black market drugs for members of the black community. It's a very hard problem. The same way the American Dream appeals to a lot of people (kind of like a more Jedi approach) there is another American Dream that is a more dark side approach and while you can advocate all day for the light side and positivity, you'll have friends and family on the same "site" that will take the dark side approach as being in their best interest. And you can say "oh but what about this?" but they don't really care about light or dark but rather what works and what demonstrates itself to work for them; even in spite of the risks. And in a world that only respects money and doesn't seem to care how you get it... its a very difficult problem. Meanwhile, they're not selling drugs on their own behalf. They're just on the low end of the spectrum of the drug trade, distributing for those higher up on a complex hierarchy that is race agnostic at the top and race-centric at the bottom.

As for the Trump rhetoric...

Victorina Morales was one of Trump's housekeepers who cleaned his toilets. You can say this wasn't on purpose but as much as Trump was involved and known for firing people on TV, would you really hire illegal workers on his behalf? Wouldn't you know that he would see them and ask questions if he was concerned? But no, he has a motive to hire illegals because he also cheated people on a pretty regular basis (as in not paying contractors). The best people to cheat are people who have no legal standing to fight back.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/06/president-trump-uses-undocumented-immigrant-labor-is-anyone-surprised/?noredirect=on

As far as his taxes go... you're assuming he didn't break the law in his efforts to dodge taxes. But he did. Paying the minimum one owes is one thing. Lying in order to pay less than one owes is another.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

There's so much about Trump and his people, you'll have to excuse me. I know there's like some kind of embargo in place to keep all this info from Trump supporters and so I sometimes just assume that these are things everyone knows by now and, amazingly enough, that's not true.

On employee earnings vs business owner profits...

I think we're having a disagreement over gross vs net. I WISH I made my own gross income. I mean, I do make it, but not really. After everything gets taken out I feel poor. Same is true of a business. The reason it can borrow and pay employees out of debt (which is amazing to me that banks will even let this happen) is because banks have faith they will be able to repay. But they can't pay unless they're gross is higher than that of their employees. What they do with that gross and what comes out of it is up to them. But the point is almost no regular employee makes exactly what they're worth or how much money they bring into the organization. There is almost always a "margin" in which they make their profits. And that's because, in the example of cleaning, if they paid a worker $10/hr they might charge $15-20. But there would be no point in charging the same $10 and getting zero profit. If a business owner is making less than an employee its not because they should. It means something's going wrong; hence Kitchen "Nightmares".

Thanks again for your patience and your willingness to give people like Jane a second look and a second chance to make a first impression. I think that's important in our society. The more we get to know each other (which could take more than an hour) the more likely we are to truly understand each other rather than trusting our own knee jerk reactions and impressions which may be fueled and influenced by stereotypes and other divisions. So I want you to know that I appreciate you specifically for your involvement in this conversation.

ZealotX wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote:
It wasn’t the worst job either...

OK, that's not fair! Now that you said that I have to know what the worst job was

Fast food in the bad part of town.

ZealotX wrote: Of course the whole "why don't black people go back to working in the fields" thing begs another question. Why would poor rural whites not be enough to work those jobs? Don't they want them?

Zealotx I am about to be brutally honest with you in my opinion here and I hope you can take this in the spirit in which it was meant.

Actually, no, my suggested solution above does not beg this question I quoted. We are actually speaking about black individuals here and how you perceive they are underprivileged. I provided a suggested means to help alleviate that with avocados and instead you counter by bringing in poor white people as a deflection of the issue in order to continue to propagate a misnomer of systematic segregation by painting these young black individuals as victims of white society because they are viewed as only being good for specific things. That's not what I said and you know it. I find your comment underhanded.

I also did review the interview you posted with Jane Elliot. The best I can say about her is that she is delusional. She is guilty of more indoctrination of students than anyone she ever accused of the same simply by indoctrinating them into the idea that systemic racism continues to exist in this country. However I did even further research and I actually came across another Utube video. The first half of this video was the same inane bias she has displayed in other videos I saw of her. However the second half of this video I was actually impressed with. When used under the correct context this exercise she does on the prison staff could be quite helpful. But it must be framed in a different context than the one she is propagating. Namely the idea that racism exists, not that it is systemically continued in this country in high ranking circles under a blanket of conspiracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mcCLm_LwpE


You go on deflecting in your next post to me by raising excuse after excuse as to why my plan will fail.

1 - There is an entire paragraph speaking about how US companies exist only to make money by beating their competition through the use of inferior materials instead of hiring black employees.

2 – There is a paragraph about how individuals willing to hire employees will not enforce the immigration laws and so will always hire illegal aliens rather than black employees.

3 – There is a paragraph asserting that legal employees only want full time jobs, not seasonal work. It goes on to say that the work is too far away and so blacks in the inner city can’t travel to the locations where jobs are.

4 – Your next paragraph flatly rejects the idea that these kids could do seasonal work instead of selling drugs, apparently for no other reason than an excuse you call “the illusion of options”. Once in “the game of drugs” they believe they will eventually become rich even though starting out they make less money than working at McDonalds and undertake an exponentially higher risk of death or incarceration. This is not to mention that illegal immigrants automatically have it better than these black kids because they get support from family that the black kids don’t.

5 – You then try to justify these excuses by saying you have thought about all this stuff before and the temptation of “the dark side” is too great to entice anyone to a legitimate job pursuit because the light side is only out to get more money. So the light side just ignores the dark side as long as they don’t interfere with the light side’s pursuit.

6 – You then assert that this racism is so systemic that it goes right up to the president, who is a proven liar, cheater, law breaker and bigot. Of course all this is hidden from his supporters by the true "people in power" and so they are deceived as well.

I was going to write rebuttals to all these excuses but then I thought not as the level of frustration I was feeling with the conversation had become something I no longer cared to put energy into. Not once did I see you build on my idea. Not once did I see you present your own ideas of possible solutions. This whole thread has been complaining without providing any potential resolutions. I have asked you over and over what you would do, how would you change things? What have you done? And in return all I get are excuses and stories of what has been done to you.

I’ll tell you a story. I was raised in a small rural and poor community of about 3k people. Growing up we had no money. When I turned 15 I asked my parents for a car. Of course they could not afford one and instead my father said to me that I needed to find a way to get a car on my own if I wanted one. No excuses as to why I couldn’t, just find the way I can. Hard work, perseverance, struggle, sacrifice all that would be involved but if I wanted it bad enough I would go through that to get what I wanted.

I found rides where I could and I found jobs. I started by throwing hay bales for .10 cents a bale. I cut and stacked wood, I cleaned horse stalls and I even worked in a local carnival for a week, cutting onions and peppers. Finally I had enough money to get my first car. It was 400 dollars and I bought a little motorcycle. I now had my own transportation. I could get better jobs that were further away and I was no longer reliant on others for rides. I got those better jobs and made more money. I eventually bought a pickup truck. Now I had a means to organize my own work by hauling or whatever and so I did that.

Eventually I graduated high school but did not have enough money for college. So I went to work full time doing whatever job I could. I lived under the poverty line for years. Saving every penny I could. To make ends meet I started a food bank for my neighborhood. I would travel grocery stores and made deals with them to pick up items they could no longer sell. Old bread and milk and perishables. I would get first pick and the rest I would give to the community. It endeared me to others and the rewards back from that hard work were immeasurable. Eventually I found an employer that valued my work ethic so much they offered to help me with school. I took the money I had saved and with their help put myself through college. I came out of college with some student loan debt but I also had a degree.

I used that degree to get better jobs. And I used those jobs to pay off that debt. I could go on but I think you get the point of this story. I have done very well for myself in life because I found solutions and not excuses. You (and people like Jane Elliot) are using excuses to keep you from finding the solutions to your problems. You are the perpetrator of promoting the perception of the continued victim hood of your own race. Until that changes I can’t help you but I do wish you the best in all your endeavors!

ZealotX wrote: Of course the whole "why don't black people go back to working in the fields" thing begs another question. Why would poor rural whites not be enough to work those jobs? Don't they want them?

VixensVengeance wrote: Zealotx I am about to be brutally honest with you in my opinion here and I hope you can take this in the spirit in which it was meant.

Actually, no, my suggested solution above does not beg this question I quoted. We are actually speaking about black individuals here and how you perceive they are underprivileged. I provided a suggested means to help alleviate that with avocados and instead you counter by bringing in poor white people as a deflection of the issue in order to continue to propagate a misnomer of systematic segregation by painting these young black individuals as victims of white society because they are viewed as only being good for specific things. That's not what I said and you know it. I find your comment underhanded.

Except this wasn't meant as a deflection. When I said your plan would fail it was for a host of reasons, only some of which I named. You are thinking that black people would want to pick avocados when poor whites obviously don't really want to either. And if you paid attention to what I said I specifically mentioned geography as a major reason. Poor blacks tend to live in the inner cities. Wealthier blacks tend to live closer to rural communities where actual farms are. So how would you get these black people there? Should they live on the farms? Would you build public housing in rural areas? I mean there are a ton of questions, issues, etc. created by this suggestion. And the reality is that poor whites often live in or close to these rural areas already but they're not working these jobs either. Why? To me, it absolutely begs the question and was not an effort to be disingenuous on my part. I simply know a multitude of reasons why your idea just wouldn't work. Not to mention the most glaring in my mind which is the fact that the majority of inner city black people are not going to gravitate to the imagery of working in the fields of a white farmer post slavery.

And this is actually a wet dream of many racists who'd like to see black people back on plantations. So you can call a deflection if you'd like, but if you have a job for poor blacks then why is it not fair to ask about the same job for poor whites? It's not like I'm not also telling you other reasons, other legitimate reasons, why your idea wouldn't work. Deflecting would be if I said why don't white people do it INSTEAD of offering you reasons why black people wouldn't. I'm doing both while avoiding my natural reaction to the same imagery you bring up. The prison industrial complex has already been known to use blacks as cheap labor. So how much I actually want to talk about black people, specifically, and not simple "poor people" which would make it not a racial thing, doing this job of cheap labor instead of receiving the 40 acres and a mule originally promised... I don't see a need to go from one of us being offended at the idea (which no one said) that Mexicans were best suited or only suited to menial labor to the other being offended at the idea that poor blacks (specifically) should do it after historically being forced to do it and having to flee to the north just to get away from such plantations... and this is the idea you want me to entertain. But... I digress.

VixensVengeance wrote: I also did review the interview you posted with Jane Elliot. The best I can say about her is that she is delusional. She is guilty of more indoctrination of students than anyone she ever accused of the same simply by indoctrinating them into the idea that systemic racism continues to exist in this country.

Wait... stop... With all due respect, why are YOU so sure that systematic racism doesn't continue to exist in this country?? With all due respect between the two of us, you are the least likely to actually come into contact with it. And actually, what, in your opinion, do you think systematic racism is? What is your definition?

VixensVengeance wrote: However I did even further research and I actually came across another Utube video. The first half of this video was the same inane bias she has displayed in other videos I saw of her. However the second half of this video I was actually impressed with. When used under the correct context this exercise she does on the prison staff could be quite helpful. But it must be framed in a different context than the one she is propagating. Namely the idea that racism exists, not that it is systemically continued in this country in high ranking circles under a blanket of conspiracy.

This is why I want to know your definition of systematic racism. Why do you think anyone is talking about some kind of conspiracy? Do you think that systematic racism and white supremacy are things whites have to consciously agree and conspire to do? Because... I personally don't think that's how it works. If a cop is racist he doesn't have to conspire with other cops before acting upon his views of minorities. The white nationalists with the tiki torches didn't all know each other. They simply have the same ideas/ideology. So when someone told them to gather, they did. You don't need a large group of people to conspire and plan and organize. If a members within a large group have the same idea they'll simply act on it and you wont know they belong to some kind of label until you tell everyone with the same idea to show up at the same location and wear the same clothes. The old KKK were people of all professions and when they did things they wore hoods so no one would know who they were. This allowed them to be police chiefs and judges. On the internet you see the result of anonymity, what people say, what they're willing to say, because no one really knows who they are and therefore there's no real consequences. That's what that hood provided. That's what private voting booths provided. You think there's no organized conspiracy? I agree. But that's no necessary in order to have a much greater effect. No, that's not modern racism. Modern racism is people acting on what they've been indoctrinated to believe. The difference is that black people are not indoctrinated to believe racism exists. We experience it. Black kids are now being openly mocked and told to go back to the plantation by white kids. My step kids were told this. I was actually in the pool when a white kid told my step son that white people were better than black people. Do you think that kid came out of the womb with that opinion? Or was it taught to him? And if taught to him, and if no one corrects that (like his father who was 3 feet away didn't correct it) then who is he going to hire when he becomes a manager at Tech firm vs a manager at McDonald's? Systematic racism is very real and it only takes the thoughts in an individuals own head in order to work.

ZealotX, since you’re still on about racism, please cease to continuously highlight white supremacy, seemingly ignoring racism against whites by your beloved minorities. Heck, you’re ignoring the racism between the minorities. It’s irritating.

Race is just one attribute you can create groups out of. It is very much human nature to believe that the group we are not a member of is inferior in some way to the group we are a member off.

Members of other religions have false gods. Boys are not as mature as girls. Blondes are dumber than brunettes, etc.

I hear what women in my office talk about and what the ones outside the salons next door talk about. Exchange the words 'nails', 'hair', 'top' or 'skin' for 'skin colour', 'race' or 'genes' and you would think you are at a top secret nazi party meeting.

People judge others based on things like choice of words, turn of phrase, tonality, body language, grooming, choice of clothing. Police are people too, they fall for the same tricks. 'Profiling' is nothing more than a collection of minor, controllable assumptions.

VixensVengeance wrote: You go on deflecting in your next post to me by raising excuse after excuse as to why my plan will fail.

1 - There is an entire paragraph speaking about how US companies exist only to make money by beating their competition through the use of inferior materials instead of hiring black employees.

I didn't say instead of hiring blacks. I was no longer even talking about your idea. I was talking about hiring illegal immigrants on the basis of COST and pure capitalism seeks lower costs in order to produce higher profit margins. It's as simple as that. Many companies run certain risks with their legal liability because the profit they gain is more than the fines and penalties they pay if they get caught.

VixensVengeance wrote: 2 – There is a paragraph about how individuals willing to hire employees will not enforce the immigration laws and so will always hire illegal aliens rather than black employees.

Again... wasn't talking about black people. You're inserting that because you missed the part where I had clearly moved on to responding to a different part of your post.

VixensVengeance wrote: 3 – There is a paragraph asserting that legal employees only want full time jobs, not seasonal work. It goes on to say that the work is too far away and so blacks in the inner city can’t travel to the locations where jobs are.

And did you actually consider any of that instead of dismissing it outright because its not what you wanted to hear? My regular commute is an hour. Do you know why I'm willing to commute an hour? MONEY. More money than I can make in my city doing the same job. How much are you willing to pay hourly for black people from the inner city to commute to farms? And if they do work then any benefits are automatically shut off so that job may have to feed and house 3 or 4 people. And what about childcare? You think these are excuses when in reality I'm giving you reasons you probably haven't fully considered.

VixensVengeance wrote: 4 – Your next paragraph flatly rejects the idea that these kids could do seasonal work instead of selling drugs, apparently for no other reason than an excuse you call “the illusion of options”. Once in “the game of drugs” they believe they will eventually become rich even though starting out they make less money than working at McDonalds and undertake an exponentially higher risk of death or incarceration. This is not to mention that illegal immigrants automatically have it better than these black kids because they get support from family that the black kids don’t.

Because there's a lot you don't understand about "the game" in order to make this suggestion. Many kids who sell drugs on the corner aren't even old enough to have a legal job. For those who are of legal age you'd then have to convince them that they can earn a decent living and have upward mobility in the organization (farm). But... day laborers who do this work, don't. They don't have benefits, 401K, medical, dental, vacation, etc. etc. Part of the reason employers hire them is so they don't have to pay for all this extra stuff that most legal citizens are accustom to. And by not paying they save money. That translates into lower prices for their goods. Lower prices translates into more sales. This is just the reality of economics. If you want employers to stop hiring illegals that's fine. But you need to give them subsidies to give them the ability to hire Americans and offer competitive wages and benefits and most likely deal with workers unions. And those subsidies would likely be more expensive then whatever drain on your tax dollars you think illegal immigrants are. That's why people haven't really done much of anything about this problem. Because they know how expensive it would be.

VixensVengeance wrote: 5 – You then try to justify these excuses by saying you have thought about all this stuff before and the temptation of “the dark side” is too great to entice anyone to a legitimate job pursuit because the light side is only out to get more money. So the light side just ignores the dark side as long as they don’t interfere with the light side’s pursuit.

You misunderstand. ME PERSONALLY, I'm light side all the way. I've never sold drugs and never would. That's ME. I cannot force another person to make the same decision based on my morality. I can only control me. And I have enough education to have the job that I have. I don't have to make the hard choice between starving and selling drugs or being homeless and selling drugs. I can't go to someone else and tell them to risk their own survival and possibly that of brothers and sisters and single mothers, to follow a legal path when "the right thing" for them, isn't exactly what the law says is legal. And their customers want their products just like customers at Walmart. They sell drugs but so do pharmacists. And often it is legal drugs that get people hooked and they turn to cheaper illegal drugs as an alternative, especially when insurance wont pay. So it's simply not black and white for everyone. My choices are enabled by the choices of my parents that benefited me. I didn't grow up in some projects. I didn't have to struggle for food or rent. And therefore I am aware of my "privilege" to the degree that I had it, enough to not try to go to those who don't and tell them what they should do and how they should survive.

VixensVengeance wrote: 6 – You then assert that this racism is so systemic that it goes right up to the president, who is a proven liar, cheater, law breaker and bigot. Of course all this is hidden from his supporters by the true "people in power" and so they are deceived as well.

You're correct and incorrect all at the same time. You think systematic racism has to be organized. It doesn't. Yes, Trump is a racist. Yes, trump empowered white nationalism by choosing a white nationalist strategist named Steeve Bannon. He empowered Steven Miller. He had Jeff Sessions target "black supremacists" as a new terror threat which they are not and never have been. So yes there are currently some policies aimed squarely at a racist agenda. However, there is no link between Trump and a racist police officer. There's no meetings of white house racists to figure out how they're going to carry out their agenda. You have many racist groups who talk about these things but they're mainly reinforcing the IDEOLOGY of race and indoctrinating whites to believe that blacks are inferior. They don't have to tell them who to hire or how to be racists. They don't have to pass out a manual. And this is where Jane's work comes in. She proved that there didn't need to be a conspiracy; that all you had to do was plant the seed that a physical different could make one person better than another. She proved that. The people in her exercise started treating the other group differently. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED for systematic racism.

And if I ask you about American history how much could you tell me about African Americans? If I asked you about world history how much could you tell me about history on the African continent? How much could you even tell me about Black history in Europe? Black kids usually don't learn these things either in public schools. You might not even learn these things in black schools. Everyone's indoctrinated to think that whites are superior and Jane realized she was teaching that too and after Dr. King died she stopped because she was horrified at the whole thing and how indoctrinated whites were responding to it.

VixensVengeance wrote: I was going to write rebuttals to all these excuses but then I thought not as the level of frustration I was feeling with the conversation had become something I no longer cared to put energy into. Not once did I see you build on my idea. Not once did I see you present your own ideas of possible solutions. This whole thread has been complaining without providing any potential resolutions. I have asked you over and over what you would do, how would you change things? What have you done? And in return all I get are excuses and stories of what has been done to you.

Why would I present my own ideas in response to yours? That would be rude. The purpose of this thread is not for us to agree with a plan of what black people should do. Ending racism is not the responsibility of the black community. I advocate for economic strategies based on Nguzu Saba and PowerNomics by Dr. Claude Anderson. I'm for creating our own free and independent economy because a lot of the issues in our community are rooted in economics. The lack of opportunities creates the illusion of hopelessness. When you don't see examples of black businesses and successful black people in your community that affects you. When you aren't taught about rich and powerful black people, like Mansa Musa, that affects you. I can talk about all that stuff but why would I do it here with a non-black audience? With all due respect, that is a conversation for black people and if whites want to help, that's cool. But there's no permission I would ever seek from whites nor would I even spitball possible solutions because these aren't solutions to racism. These are solutions to the economic conditions created by racism. What whites need to do is stop being racist and that would help far more than anything we could do in response. Take the whole idea of race and just trash it, recycle it, whatever. Get rid of it. Tell each other that there is no such thing as race. That it is a myth. I've given you a solution. Listen to Jane Elliott. I CANNOT change you. I cannot change Donald Trump. I cannot change anyone who want to hold on to racist ideologies. But what I can do is put people like Jane Elliott and Time Wise in an environment where you can hear some of the same things I could tell you, but from a another white person with more experience and perspective on the subject. Because what I say sounds like excuses to you.

ren wrote: Race is just one attribute you can create groups out of. It is very much human nature to believe that the group we are not a member of is inferior in some way to the group we are a member off.

Members of other religions have false gods. Boys are not as mature as girls. Blondes are dumber than brunettes, etc.

I hear what women in my office talk about and what the ones outside the salons next door talk about. Exchange the words 'nails', 'hair', 'top' or 'skin' for 'skin colour', 'race' or 'genes' and you would think you are at a top secret nazi party meeting.

People judge others based on things like choice of words, turn of phrase, tonality, body language, grooming, choice of clothing. Police are people too, they fall for the same tricks. 'Profiling' is nothing more than a collection of minor, controllable assumptions.

My “Ren-ly” quote for the moment ...
“Profiling “ is nothing more than a collection of minor controllable assumptions “

Truth can be said about racism.. it’s nothing more than a collection of assumptions based non controllable assumptions... maybe ... still watching the thread for good stuff. Ya know - stuff I can use lol