How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher

In our Order - yes.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher - at least we try- it’s the try that sometimes makes the difference. The standard of try can’t be penned or even said because it varies from person to person.
My 2 cents.

Fascinating. Higher than what, exactly?

Yea, I would also very much appreciate if it could be made understandable to me just what bizarre form of humility or knightliness it is to speak of one's Order, or rank as standing for - or indeed being - something "higher" in what ever form...

This is the exact sort of elite thinking I refer to. It is why these ranks are popularity contests instead of positions of honor based in academics. It is also why I pursue the degree and not the rank. I want to be recognized for the work not because I think Im some "higher standard" than my peers here.

https://youtu.be/I_O37cE1j64

I’m not saying our Order is anything better than any other order organization or any other idea. Please. If I learned a new phrase I think the definition of flame wars is relevant here.

Any type of organization as far as getting thing in order or organizing - is so much better than just a mess. Tojo isn’t any better as far as “WE ARE KINGS” or “one ring to rule them all..”
nahh . I’m sorry if I didn’t relay that clearer. I ain’t the brightest crayon on the box but I do like to draw! Any how . If your looking for reasons to blame or point fingers or any reason to say hateful or harmful things or even bring discredit to things - feel free to travel that road - without me. I love this place. I love the people in it. ( even those I don’t see eye to eye with - still -part till the choice is made to change that but until then) I try to build - rarely tear down. Have fun and I hope you find what y’all seek - truly I do. It’s never my nature to argue or quibble and at this point I feel the time has come for me to exit stage right. May the Force be with y’all - all of us as we respectfully and some not so , seek it out. Happy seeking

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I try to build - rarely tear down.

“Every act of creation begins with an act of destruction” - Pablo Picasso

Eggs, omelettes.

Any structure - a building, a railway, a temple hierarchy, isn't worth a damn if it's built without a stable foundation.

@Carlos, I am sorry if you are feeling attacked, I dont think that is the intention of anyone here and I especially think you have mis-characterized the term flame war. Nothing in here has constituted a flame war except for "miss slut" on the first page.

I think the heart of the matter is a misunderstanding of standard vs expectation. When you say Knights are held to a higher standard that does imply elitism. However what I also hear you saying is that this is not the case. So what I think is being implied here is that the Knights are held to a higher expectation (not standard). Meaning they are expected to contribute more, give more, teach etc. How that is accomplished is in no better a manner than any other member or guest of this board would be capable of given those same expectations. This is also not the idea that they are more enlightened etc than others or have the secret to life figured out that they must now impart onto the lowly guests and novices of this temple.

If this is truly the case then the problem arises in a lack of training of the Knights to actually meet those expectations instead of assuming other higher standards they feel they should be meeting. For example I have had Knight after Knight come after me by making me their personal mission to get rid of. I get threads interrupted and constantly corrected on my behaviour, approach, mannerisms, philosophies and so on. And each of those Knights in turn have only succeeded in melting down and either being banned or leaving this place. Why is this? Because they have misunderstood standard vs expectation as a Knight.

Its not a Knights place to tell me who I should be or how I should act. It is their place to serve the temple through admin duties and teaching. However too many of them get this idea they are special and are elite members of this place, better than others like me, of a higher caliber (standard) and they forget why they are actually the rank they are, to serve and teach.

Its not a Knights place to tell me who I should be or how I should act. It is their place to serve the temple through admin duties and teaching. However too many of them get this idea they are special and are elite members of this place, better than others like me, of a higher caliber (standard) and they forget why they are actually the rank they are, to serve and teach.

According to your stance, what is wrong with this paragraph?

Proteus wrote:
According to your stance, what is wrong with this paragraph?

Wait a minute...is this a test? I got a better idea, why don't you just spit out what you are trying to say instead of being all mysterious and cryptic. Believe me, your no yoda.

Well, I thought you didn't believe in telling other people what to do or how to behave. I'm even more curious about your paragraph now. And to be fair, it is a simple question.

Proteus wasn't cryptic. He not-directly-enough pointed out you contradict yourself. Unless by 'serve and teach', you mean ice-cold Coca-Colas and monkeys how to dance. But we both know that's not what knights are for. Proteus is very gently trying to do you a service, 'serve and teach', as a knight should, but he won't force you to learn.

Manu wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I try to build - rarely tear down.

“Every act of creation begins with an act of destruction” - Pablo Picasso

My immediate thought was 'isn't building and tearing down in equal measure the very nature of the Force?'

ren wrote: Proteus wasn't cryptic. He not-directly-enough pointed out you contradict yourself. Unless by 'serve and teach', you mean ice-cold Coca-Colas and monkeys how to dance. But we both know that's not what knights are for. Proteus is very gently trying to do you a service, 'serve and teach', as a knight should, but he won't force you to learn

Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?

Well I honestly didnt expect that question to be a conversation killer! lol, Im really curious now, I still do not see where any of my comments were contradictory or hypocritical or inconsistent. I told no one how to behave, I simply pointed out expectation vs standard as is defined by the temple as I understand the concepts. Nothing can be learned if nothing is ventured so I would take the silence as a strong indicator that I am on the right track here. Am I wrong?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I ask you this? How is rank actually about academics in the courses of study here instead of simply a popularity contest? If you achieve the academics are you guaranteed the rank as in a traditional university? Or are you still subject to the scrutiny of a specific clique of individuals that were not elected, but appointed, to decide your value in a rank?

I have recently come to some epiphanies in this ranking structure. I have seen knight after knight melt down and either be excommunicated, rage quit or outright banned while the "quieter" jedi, with no rank, continue on over time, being a voice of reason and wisdom time and time again. These people I refer to have been my greatest sources of inspiration, steadfast perseverance and wisdom, while these so called knights have faltered and destroyed themselves over and over. Power corrupts... So I want to ask, who are the true Jedi here?

short answer: an order is not a school.

long answer:

Definition (Webster)
1a
: a group of people united in a formal way: such as
(1) : a fraternal society

being a "group of people" the structure is determined by the leader(s) of the group. If they determine that rank is subject to a list of criteria including academics then those levels include but are not limited to academics. If this were the case then any order could be "infiltrated" by members of an opposing faction and eventually corrupted/changed from within. Any Order should therefore protect itself from this by formulating criteria that would keep "undesirables" and other infiltrators out so as not to change in a way in which the Order ceases to be; according to its original mission/intent/purpose.

Example:
What keeps Russia (an enemy to the US) from running their own candidates for President of the US?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?

The inconsistency I see is that in the FAQs, "Rank" is explicitly stated as being related to the amount of study (academics):

It does, however, continue to clarify:

The Solemn Vow states a Knight's commitment to the Order via "uphold the Jedi teachings", and it mentions the duties and responsibilities of a Knight, though it does not define what those are:

Manu wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?

The inconsistency I see is that in the FAQs, "Rank" is explicitly stated as being related to the amount of study (academics):

Code:

[b]Ranking Structure[/b] You can identify the ranks of members by the Rank Bar which can be found underneath their profile picture. These are the types of ranking in the Order: A Status is related to the rights and responsibilities (some legal) a member has. A Rank is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished. An Office is a specific organisational position held by a person. A Clerical Rank is the position within the Clergy.

It does, however, continue to clarify:

Code:

[b]Knight - Rank[/b] An Apprentice who has successfully completed their apprenticeship to the satisfaction of their Teaching Master and the Council. [b][color=red]They uphold the principles of Jediism as defined by the Solemn Vow[/color][/b], and have completed the Degree to A.Div level. They can take on Apprentices of their own. A Knight must be at least eighteen years of age (18).

The Solemn Vow states a Knight's commitment to the Order via "uphold the Jedi teachings", and it mentions the duties and responsibilities of a Knight, though it does not define what those are:

Code:

"I, [legal name] born on [dd/mm/yyyy], profess before all and without reservation, that I choose to devote myself to the Jedi path. I vow to uphold the Jedi teachings, to fulfil the duties and responsibilities of a knight, and to cultivate an understanding of the Force."

except that related to is not a statement of equivalence. My sister and I are related. We're obviously not the same person or have the same level of education.

What is written is there to give you an idea of "qualifications"... "qualifiers".... that's not definitive. That's like saying that anyone who finishes law school is automatically a lawyer and anyone who finishes med school is automatically a doctor.

If you keep reading the FAQs it states further qualifications (ie. must be at least 16 and must be trained). It never states that TOJO is required to train someone. That is completely at the discretion of the knights. And if I were a knight I would personally take into consideration as a major factor, the character, personality, and disposition of a person before I decided to train them because I would feel responsible for them because it would be a result of my training that would allow them to obtain a certain rank(power) which they could abuse.

So therefore, the qualifications documented are basic qualifiers true for everyone while the rest of the qualifications might change from knight to knight because it's their choice who they decide to train. And honestly, I couldn't agree more with TOJO on how one gets to the rank of knight. Just because people want something doesn't mean they should have it. As someone said, "you can't always get what you want".

(special shout out to Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)

ZealotX wrote: So therefore, the qualifications documented are basic qualifiers true for everyone while the rest of the qualifications might change from knight to knight because it's their choice who they decide to train. And honestly, I couldn't agree more with TOJO on how one gets to the rank of knight. Just because people want something doesn't mean they should have it. As someone said, "you can't always get what you want".

I agree with you completely. I am just pointing out that it is possible to further clarify things in the FAQ page, so we can have fewer of these conversations.

ZealotX wrote: (special shout out to Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)
https://images.app.goo.gl/AoxFF3mczKBt8xZ99

I find your lack of image pasting skills disturbing. :laugh:

fixed! LOL

Thank you.