How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: ^^ that
Rank is a trust in our Order
Not a contest.

I guess a big part of the question of trust is "do we trust this person to teach others on behalf of the Temple?"

With Knighthood comes the ability to teach freely. It surely doesn't make sense for the Temple to allow people to ascend to a teaching position if their principles and behaviour are significantly out of sync with the Temple's doctrine and ethos - regardless of how much academic study they have completed. I would posit that this Temple has historically been quite good at affording a good amount of leeway on this - we've seen some wildly different opinions and approaches on all sorts of things over the years from the Knights Corp. Yet still, surely there must be allowed to be a certain level of difference that is just a step too far...

Can anyone think of a way to determine such suitability other than by vote? Must a vote always be considered a popularity contest? One hopes that Jedi councillors or Jedi Knights are not basing their vote on whether or not they like someone, but on whether that person exhibits the behaviour set out by the Temple as being befitting of a Jedi.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: There IS a standard. We try our best to maintain it. Not all will make that - “standard.” Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. It’s not a popularity thing more than a representative type of thing.

Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher

There is a standard... but only, ACCORDING TO THIS TEMPLE. This is not a universal standard however and so to say that every Jedi is not capable of Knightly behaviour must be qualified with "in your opinion". So in this case it is very much a popularity contest. One that is won or lost by the opinion of others here in power. In this regard, YOUR order is not a standard higher than others, just different. This is where the degree scheme comes in. One who pursues the degree but also has a different idea of the principles you set forth here in Knighthood has the credential to teach others under different circumstances at different places. They may not be able to teach here because they are not Knights here but that does not discount their own interpretation of Knightliness and it does not impede their ability to teach that version to others under different umbrellas.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: There IS a standard. We try our best to maintain it. Not all will make that - “standard.” Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. It’s not a popularity thing more than a representative type of thing.

Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher

There is a standard... but only, ACCORDING TO THIS TEMPLE. This is not a universal standard however and so to say that every Jedi is not capable of Knightly behaviour must be qualified with "in your opinion". So in this case it is very much a popularity contest. One that is won or lost by the opinion of others here in power. In this regard, YOUR order is not a standard higher than others, just different. This is where the degree scheme comes in. One who pursues the degree but also has a different idea of the principles you set forth here in Knighthood has the credential to teach others under different circumstances at different places. They may not be able to teach here because they are not Knights here but that does not discount their own interpretation of Knightliness and it does not impede their ability to teach that version to others under different umbrellas.

I hate to state the obvious but yes - and it’s up to the TEMPLE to decide who we trust. It’s our Order. So - your right - if you wanna join - if you want our honorary degrees and titles - then yea - as the granting Order - yea we got rules. We have been the faithful site to diligently do our paperwork and our organization to a point where we can. Heck - if this lot can any one can. Yet ... they have not or they choose not to or they don’t know how. Our ranks are subject to our rules. I’m not being a dictator about this it’s just pretty obvious... isn’t it ? Even with our rules and by laws it’s still way loose to interpretation of to the individual. Go and create a honorary degree scheme at your Own Temple and or Temples churches originations and such and see how much work it actually takes. Create by laws and file for a church status get a tax Id and all that comes with it and see if it’s as easy as some think it is. It isn’t. As the responsible Order who grants these - yea we are responsible for the rules .


Edit : I know plenty of people who are not ONLY in with just one organization in the Jedi community. Not a big deal but a blessing some days when they share and chat. Want a diffrent umbrella and a different set of rules - seek them out. You will find them - promise. They are available as much as we are. Just point and - click.

Ironic as it is with everything being said here, IMHO, the brass tax comes down to judgement disagreed with in TOTJO’s decision on their plans of doing things. Force Academy has their way, TOTJO has theirs, other Jedi communities have their ways.

Yes, some call it standards, but every idea and thought on how to do something has to have a baseline to choose it’s directions. Not everyone agrees with it in their way of wanting to do something, that’s where the freedom to search for a path that fits in someway to each persons search comes into view. If it’s not what they feel is for them at one place or another, their search continues on, or some create their own as Kyrin has, like many others.

One has the choice of also utilizing bits and pieces from search to follow their path. If our created program isn’t what one wants no one is twisting anyone’s arm to say stay, or hopefully no one has ever, that’s not our way.

So, if it’s not what fits in one persons life, find where you should be and go there.

RyuJin laid it out, Rank is more of an issue rather than the teachings. It has its basis for some reasons, others based on other decisions. But really, studying a program, if you feel is what you want to do rather than for the sake of Rank, you’re doing a disservice to not only yourself but to others who really want to study without all the crap being tangled up in it, if it’s based on Rank. If you go to a trade school, Community College or University, if the program you want is doing what’s needed to teach is what you feel is what you seek you do so, if not you have the choice to change in order to seek that which you are searching for!

Rank should be the lesser of choice.

I believe the 'root' issue behind this whole rank thing that keep popping up time and time again, is the perceived gaslighting that is born from constantly being told to "fall in line" and "Jedi up", followed by the same people calling for such standards (or behaviors, or values, if you please), behaving differently.

Anyone can accept the idea that even real life Jedi masters are fallible. What becomes hard to swallow are masters that treat you like a child, then behave like children themselves.

Of course, this is all a matter of perception, and as Proteus said, the cooler, (wiser?) ones are usually the quieter ones as well.

Being quieter and then calling those that are quieter as also being wiser only serves to prop the self ego up.

What it boils down to is there is really no such thing as a "jedi standard" or baseline. They dont exist except in movies and only then after a lifetime of abusive practices and cult like indoctrination as well as the most intense training. The sort of true dedication needed to achieve anything remotely similar on this planet is something I have never seen in any individual that haunts these halls. They best any of us can truly say is that we play at being Jedi. And because of that we each get to decide for ourselves what that means.

Well, we've talked about all the issues we have with this pros and cons. I guess, to answer a question with a question there is an obvious issue here and albeit we probably won't be able to make everyone happy regardless but, what should we do? How can we make this better for the good of the order? Should we call a council and knights meeting? Maybe a restructuring of the IP maybe one of us could reach out to a college? Just some thoughts.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Being quieter and then calling those that are quieter as also being wiser only serves to prop the self ego up.

Possibly, haha. It's quite debatable though. Perhaps some people just prioritize their participation here differently.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: What it boils down to is there is really no such thing as a "jedi standard" or baseline. They dont exist except in movies and only then after a lifetime of abusive practices and cult like indoctrination as well as the most intense training. The sort of true dedication needed to achieve anything remotely similar on this planet is something I have never seen in any individual that haunts these halls. They best any of us can truly say is that we play at being Jedi. And because of that we each get to decide for ourselves what that means.

You say that like it's a bad thing. :lol:

Of course we are playing! But does the game actually inspire us to be better, happier, and echo that "goodness" into our worlds? If it does, then play on.

@ Kyrin
Funny - but find one person here who would agree with you about Totjo s standard being any type of higher or better standard in the Jedi community. I don’t think that actually exist... any one? What any one will say is it is OUR standard... never ever will anyone say OURS is the only or the best. No one. Only you I think. Think about it for a bit...

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher -

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher

In our Order - yes.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher - at least we try- it’s the try that sometimes makes the difference. The standard of try can’t be penned or even said because it varies from person to person.
My 2 cents.

Fascinating. Higher than what, exactly?

Yea, I would also very much appreciate if it could be made understandable to me just what bizarre form of humility or knightliness it is to speak of one's Order, or rank as standing for - or indeed being - something "higher" in what ever form...

This is the exact sort of elite thinking I refer to. It is why these ranks are popularity contests instead of positions of honor based in academics. It is also why I pursue the degree and not the rank. I want to be recognized for the work not because I think Im some "higher standard" than my peers here.

https://youtu.be/I_O37cE1j64

I’m not saying our Order is anything better than any other order organization or any other idea. Please. If I learned a new phrase I think the definition of flame wars is relevant here.

Any type of organization as far as getting thing in order or organizing - is so much better than just a mess. Tojo isn’t any better as far as “WE ARE KINGS” or “one ring to rule them all..”
nahh . I’m sorry if I didn’t relay that clearer. I ain’t the brightest crayon on the box but I do like to draw! Any how . If your looking for reasons to blame or point fingers or any reason to say hateful or harmful things or even bring discredit to things - feel free to travel that road - without me. I love this place. I love the people in it. ( even those I don’t see eye to eye with - still -part till the choice is made to change that but until then) I try to build - rarely tear down. Have fun and I hope you find what y’all seek - truly I do. It’s never my nature to argue or quibble and at this point I feel the time has come for me to exit stage right. May the Force be with y’all - all of us as we respectfully and some not so , seek it out. Happy seeking

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I try to build - rarely tear down.

“Every act of creation begins with an act of destruction” - Pablo Picasso

Eggs, omelettes.

Any structure - a building, a railway, a temple hierarchy, isn't worth a damn if it's built without a stable foundation.

@Carlos, I am sorry if you are feeling attacked, I dont think that is the intention of anyone here and I especially think you have mis-characterized the term flame war. Nothing in here has constituted a flame war except for "miss slut" on the first page.

I think the heart of the matter is a misunderstanding of standard vs expectation. When you say Knights are held to a higher standard that does imply elitism. However what I also hear you saying is that this is not the case. So what I think is being implied here is that the Knights are held to a higher expectation (not standard). Meaning they are expected to contribute more, give more, teach etc. How that is accomplished is in no better a manner than any other member or guest of this board would be capable of given those same expectations. This is also not the idea that they are more enlightened etc than others or have the secret to life figured out that they must now impart onto the lowly guests and novices of this temple.

If this is truly the case then the problem arises in a lack of training of the Knights to actually meet those expectations instead of assuming other higher standards they feel they should be meeting. For example I have had Knight after Knight come after me by making me their personal mission to get rid of. I get threads interrupted and constantly corrected on my behaviour, approach, mannerisms, philosophies and so on. And each of those Knights in turn have only succeeded in melting down and either being banned or leaving this place. Why is this? Because they have misunderstood standard vs expectation as a Knight.

Its not a Knights place to tell me who I should be or how I should act. It is their place to serve the temple through admin duties and teaching. However too many of them get this idea they are special and are elite members of this place, better than others like me, of a higher caliber (standard) and they forget why they are actually the rank they are, to serve and teach.

Its not a Knights place to tell me who I should be or how I should act. It is their place to serve the temple through admin duties and teaching. However too many of them get this idea they are special and are elite members of this place, better than others like me, of a higher caliber (standard) and they forget why they are actually the rank they are, to serve and teach.

According to your stance, what is wrong with this paragraph?