How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.

But as people and humans go , can’t you tell the difference ? Even with something as constant as this? How our criticism or even “FREN- ly “ encouragement - can’t you tell how the other person reacts by what they are telling or responding to it ? Or does that make it a one way conversation when we don’t? Then if that’s the case it CAN ... not be as constructive as we thought . Then it may take a lot more than just speaking or typing things we think ... maybe a bit of knowing who and what and how others may see it...

But that’s off topic - there is a discussion about division for such a thing! Smiley face!
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/122450-discussion-about-discussion

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.

Yes that's why I think it should go both ways... "ethic of reciprocity" in the doctrine.

too much is spent on the negative here....

I agree. I wonder if rank somewhat blinds people to their own negativity, and whether it encourages snobbery instead of being representative of merit.

ren wrote:

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.

Yes that's why I think it should go both ways... "ethic of reciprocity" in the doctrine.

too much is spent on the negative here....

I agree. I wonder if rank somewhat blinds people from their own negativity, and whether it encourages snobbery instead of being representative of merit.

Some it CAN
Some it frees
Some it burdens
Some it helps shine
Some it dulls
An old wrinkly smelly man named Fred told me in his best Cajun way”money - it amplifies only what’s there- it makes a good man better or a bad man worse” My own parallel to rank- in the US Army rank often just made it know who were the jerks and who weren’t.

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..

Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.

Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...

So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.

Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?

Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...

You put in the work in just like any other school curriculum. It's not easy work but, for me a rewarding labor of love. Rank, doesn't make me any better than the next person imo there will always be someone better than me and I hope they do. But, it also gives me something to work for and dive deeper into jediism and The Force.

I dont view it as a popularity contest. I'm hear to learn but, I do think having a rank is a special reward given for you hard work. I also feel it should be respected because they put the work into it but, certainly doesn't make anyone better than another Jedi.

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..

Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.

Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...

So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.

Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?

Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...

Find out what? That I have not used that account? I already know so, and have not accused anyone else of doing so.

I quite frankly have better things to do than to track down who reactivated what account or why, provided it's a recent still-in-the-logs thing. Some people were unbanned despite the council's choice to excommunicate. Some people have dual accounts. You're not getting excited about martalina's new account, why are you upset by jabba's?

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..

Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.

Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...

So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.

Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?

Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...

Find out what? That I have not used that account? I already know so, and have not accused anyone else of doing so.

I quite frankly have better things to do than to track down who reactivated what account or why, provided it's a recent still-in-the-logs thing. Some people were unbanned despite the council's choice to excommunicate. Some people have dual accounts. You're not getting excited about martalina's new account, why are you upset by jabba's?

If its not obvious to you why someone of council has an alt account for the purpose trolling and causing problems on some wanna-be stretch of a lesson learning philosophy beyond inappropriate then it just further proves there are no active quality members of leadership left.

No it isn't obvious to me. Please explain.

Eleven wrote: You put in the work in just like any other school curriculum.

Except it is not like any other school curriculum. School curricula are often a matter of public record. Someone who has a school diploma of some sort has met standards of some sort. I don't even have to know what school they went to, let alone what teachers instructed them to have at least some idea of what they must have learned. I certainly needn't be an expert in their field either. Even many degree schemes come with standards. I can reasonably expect a historian of any caliber to have covered the Gallian conquest, the French revolution, and the World Wars. I know an economist will have read about the theories of Keynes and Smith, probably even Marx. One doesn't get to walk out with a physics degree without knowing someting about thermodynamics, and one isn't much of a philosopher if one knows neither of Aristotle nor of Kant.
Yet, you are a Knight of the Temple of the Jedi Order and that tells me nothing about the work you put in to get there. What have you learned? I can expect that you have worked your way through one form of the Initiates' Programme or another, with what fuzzy standards there are for that. At any rate, that doesn't make one a Knight, and everything else is blank. I don't know what test you had to pass, if any, and whether your fellow Knights had to also, even among those instructed by your very own training master if indeed there are others.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to question the legitimacy of your rank or challenge your sense of accomplishment about it. If in your experience it was a lot like any other school, that's great, and I hope your apprentices will be instructed in a consistent manner and knighted as a matter of recognition of their performance. I'm glad you were, if it is so. A question as to what rank is all about wouldn't come up and persist for so long however, if rank was clearly a matter of academic achievement or a popularity contest, because it would be obvious to almost all which one it is.

The senior knight rank is purely academic, but knight is earned through an apprenticeship, so the quality of a knight largely depends on the TM.

The council had asked for more transparency years back but some TMs at the time got upset by that.

Additionally Edu Admin had asked for a more consistant set of lessons for Apprenticeship. Knights got mad, apprentices got mad, mob got mad. Something about individuality

This is the fruit of that

Rosalyn J wrote: Additionally Edu Admin had asked for a more consistant set of lessons for Apprenticeship. Knights got mad, apprentices got mad, mob got mad. Something about individuality

This is the fruit of that

Sounds like the privates telling the generals what to do. Not a good policy to adopt.

Weren't you one of those privates Kyrin?

ren wrote: Weren't you one of those privates Kyrin?

Well I suppose you could say that but I always wanted more standardization not just a free for all. For example instead of just completing whatever, I have always thought the rank degrees should be more standardized but segregated. If you want a degree in Jedi basket weaving take this pool of courses, if you want a degree in Jedi philosophical physics then this course pool is for you. That sort of thing. It speaks much better to the different levels each of us are at and it allows for individual growth at a rate each requires at a more standardized yet personal level.

But what about the sacredness of the partnership between you and your TM?

well, rank is a bit of both really.

the academic portion is the lessons etc. while the popularity portion has to do with how you conduct yourself. an apprentice that is disruptive and troublesome will likely not get promoted if they rub too many of their seniors the wrong way. jedi should be able to point out and correct problems in a dignified, rational manner. instead too many seem to give in to their negative emotions and resort to accusations, name calling, etc...there is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do so.

originally senior knight wasn't an academic rank, it was a way of distinguishing knights that had put in significant work with/for the temple, it was later shifted to an academic rank. i was one of the first few to have the rank, when it was lieutenant knight, along with jestor, and jasper, then later damion...

i was considering the idea of having 2 paths to knighthood, 1 being the traditional method of apprenticeship etc, the other being academic...however i'm beginning to question that idea seeing as many academics seem to lack the correct mindset, or so it seems...

a jedi should be:
polite
humble
kind
generous
considerate
respectful
diligent

these traits are difficult to teach or learn purely academically...they require a guide, or an academic with the right mindset...

Rosalyn J wrote: But what about the sacredness of the partnership between you and your TM?

What about it? How does that idea affect that at all? There can be a requirement for electives so the team can also explore what ever else they want in addition, but it also allows for a minimum set standard for completion.

the academic portion is the lessons etc. while the popularity portion has to do with how you conduct yourself. an apprentice that is disruptive and troublesome will likely not get promoted if they rub too many of their seniors the wrong way. jedi should be able to point out and correct problems in a dignified, rational manner. instead too many seem to give in to their negative emotions and resort to accusations, name calling, etc...there is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do so.

What this simply equates to is not the correct or incorrect way, it is the way YOU want them to be done. If any Jedi path is a valid path then you cant dictate an incorrect or correct way to approach anything. The best you can do is restrict those Jedi YOU feel this temples personal policies do not comport with. That is quite different than discounting anyone as a Jedi Knight you simply dont agree with. I would see this as the difference between the degree and the rank.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: But what about the sacredness of the partnership between you and your TM?

What about it? How does that idea affect that at all? There can be a requirement for electives so the team can also explore what ever else they want in addition, but it also allows for a minimum set standard for completion.

the academic portion is the lessons etc. while the popularity portion has to do with how you conduct yourself. an apprentice that is disruptive and troublesome will likely not get promoted if they rub too many of their seniors the wrong way. jedi should be able to point out and correct problems in a dignified, rational manner. instead too many seem to give in to their negative emotions and resort to accusations, name calling, etc...there is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do so.

What this simply equates to is not the correct or incorrect way, it is the way YOU want them to be done. If any Jedi path is a valid path then you cant dictate an incorrect or correct way to approach anything. The best you can do is restrict those Jedi YOU feel this temples personal policies do not comport with. That is quite different than discounting anyone as a Jedi Knight you simply dont agree with. I would see this as the difference between the degree and the rank.

This is strictly my own opinion on the matter and I would hope I share it with others here.
The “standard” as some may call it, is also a part of how one conducts themselves in the Temple and how they approach things/ how they answer and what they answer. This is a hard pill to take in some ways and even harder to enforce. A Knight has Knightly character. Who says what is knightly and what isn’t? What is - knightly character ? Ryujin gave a list and it sounds good on paper but when displayed ... its easily read ( in this case of the Temple) because we cant actually see you or be physically next to you - we kinna have to take it for what we read and how it’s reacted to. Representation of our Order is given as well as the titles and ranks. That as well, is a part of the whole gig of being a Knight as well. There IS a standard. We try our best to maintain it. Not all will make that - “standard.” Not every one who calls them self Jedi is knightly. Flat out. It’s not a popularity thing more than a representative type of thing. Your free to pick and choose your own path. No one can tell you what you believe and what you choose to believe and how. We stand for enlightenment and seeking - that glow that idea is what we try to keep as we encourage others to find the freedoms some of us have. We try to find others like this. Who act and teach and speak Knightly. Those who dont or choose not to may not make the rank. Our Order and Knights stand a bit higher - at least we try- it’s the try that sometimes makes the difference. The standard of try can’t be penned or even said because it varies from person to person.
My 2 cents.

there is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do so.

Then there are people outright fighting the wrong thing.

originally senior knight wasn't an academic rank, it was a way of distinguishing knights that had put in significant work with/for the temple, it was later shifted to an academic rank. i was one of the first few to have the rank, when it was lieutenant knight, along with jestor, and jasper, then later damion...

Trusted knights, who unlike other knights, could teach.

i was considering the idea of having 2 paths to knighthood, 1 being the traditional method of apprenticeship etc, the other being academic...however i'm beginning to question that idea seeing as many academics seem to lack the correct mindset, or so it seems...

We have no academic knights, all were OK'd by a TM, and on occasion apprentices OK'd by their TM were ultimately denied by the council.

Right now the knights control the curriculum and judge readiness and completion. The system has proven catastrophic as the first person to be knighted through it suffered a meltdown that eventually lead to their removal from the order.

^^ that
Rank is a trust in our Order
Not a contest.