How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

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05 May 2019 20:10 #338076 by Carlos.Martinez3

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.


But as people and humans go , can’t you tell the difference ? Even with something as constant as this? How our criticism or even “FREN- ly “ encouragement - can’t you tell how the other person reacts by what they are telling or responding to it ? Or does that make it a one way conversation when we don’t? Then if that’s the case it CAN ... not be as constructive as we thought . Then it may take a lot more than just speaking or typing things we think ... maybe a bit of knowing who and what and how others may see it...

But that’s off topic - there is a discussion about division for such a thing! Smiley face!
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ion-about-discussion

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05 May 2019 20:30 - 05 May 2019 20:31 #338077 by ren

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.


Yes that's why I think it should go both ways... "ethic of reciprocity" in the doctrine.

too much is spent on the negative here....


I agree. I wonder if rank somewhat blinds people to their own negativity, and whether it encourages snobbery instead of being representative of merit.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
Last edit: 05 May 2019 20:31 by ren.
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05 May 2019 20:34 #338078 by Carlos.Martinez3

ren wrote:

Manu wrote: “Criticism” can actually be extremely constructive, and withholding it extremely destructive.

And what exactly constitutes a “put down” is highly subjective. I’ve seen quite a few people “explode” defensively to something I personally did not find offensive.


Yes that's why I think it should go both ways... "ethic of reciprocity" in the doctrine.

too much is spent on the negative here....


I agree. I wonder if rank somewhat blinds people from their own negativity, and whether it encourages snobbery instead of being representative of merit.



Some it CAN
Some it frees
Some it burdens
Some it helps shine
Some it dulls
An old wrinkly smelly man named Fred told me in his best Cajun way”money - it amplifies only what’s there- it makes a good man better or a bad man worse” My own parallel to rank- in the US Army rank often just made it know who were the jerks and who weren’t.

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05 May 2019 20:56 #338079 by Tellahane

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..


Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.


Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...


So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.


Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?


Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...

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05 May 2019 21:17 - 05 May 2019 21:18 #338080 by Eleven
You put in the work in just like any other school curriculum. It's not easy work but, for me a rewarding labor of love. Rank, doesn't make me any better than the next person imo there will always be someone better than me and I hope they do. But, it also gives me something to work for and dive deeper into jediism and The Force.

I dont view it as a popularity contest. I'm hear to learn but, I do think having a rank is a special reward given for you hard work. I also feel it should be respected because they put the work into it but, certainly doesn't make anyone better than another Jedi.
Last edit: 05 May 2019 21:18 by Eleven. Reason: Misspelling
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05 May 2019 22:34 #338081 by ren

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..


Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.


Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...


So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.


Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?


Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...


Find out what? That I have not used that account? I already know so, and have not accused anyone else of doing so.

I quite frankly have better things to do than to track down who reactivated what account or why, provided it's a recent still-in-the-logs thing. Some people were unbanned despite the council's choice to excommunicate. Some people have dual accounts. You're not getting excited about martalina's new account, why are you upset by jabba's?

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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05 May 2019 23:11 #338082 by Tellahane

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote:

Lumella wrote: How intruiging indeed ,

So , Br John and Ren are Jabba the Hut
Rosalyn knew about it because she discussed it with Tellahane , Carlos is in denying of everthing probably because he is the Pastor and loves where he is , desperately trying to get this on topic..


Br John is the founder, ren is a veteran councillor who once used Jabba's "The art of the deal" as an avatar to commemorate the democratic choices of the american people, Rosalyn is the former pastor and councillor, Carlos is current pastor and councillor, and tellahane, member of a clique that enjoys making things up, accusing others of one thing or another, and recently ragequit a second time after Carlos (pastor) unlocked a thread.

Maybe Tellahane can explain how his rank is not just a popularity contest.


Well you got some of that right.

My second "Rage Quit" as you call it was nothing about carlos unlocking a thread I locked, and everything to do about the new "goal" of the temple which was to purposefully keep hostile guests around for the sake of causing hostility and conflict so that knights and other ranking members could be "seen" defending its membership as a PR stunt. The moment that became a thing was the moment I left the administrative position. Not one part of that plan follows the teachings here and I do not support it or the administrative decision to do it, and I will not serve a temple that intentionally allows hostility of its members for the sake of "looking good".

"Jabba The Slut"'s account was banned by me during my tenure as "Assistant Site Admin" when several reports came in about inappropriate content and posting etc. The account's IP didn't match anyone so just like most bans of that type, never thought of again. Then sometime a year later, while I was the actual server admin, the account suddenly became un-banned and started posting in a very specific heated thread, just out of nowhere. IP address was different then before but again no matches, so I did some digging. Turns out joomla has a log for all administrative access stored in a php file not a log file, guess what I found ren? The account was unbanned by john(with not council votes no posts no pardons no nothing), and shortly after that logged into by an IP address reversing to a location affiliated with john, and posts popped up. The account was re-banned I screenshoted all of the evidence, and as ros was john's closest ear at the time I approached her to talk to john about it, and it ceased again...

Now just a few days after I'm no longer admin, ren has taken back over, the account re-surfaces again just after above agenda is put into place? come on it's not coincidence...so yeah I'll call out the obvious BS...


So in other words, the only link between me and that account is it has been used twice while I am admin. Much like it was used twice while you were admin. I note you did not accuse yourself of controlling the account.

since the vote moved from council to knighthood being a much bigger pool of people, its less so.


Because it involves more people it is less of a popularity contest?


Well ren, you have the access, you've claimed many times your far more knowledgeable then I, go and find out for yourself, I still have the screenshots too...


Find out what? That I have not used that account? I already know so, and have not accused anyone else of doing so.

I quite frankly have better things to do than to track down who reactivated what account or why, provided it's a recent still-in-the-logs thing. Some people were unbanned despite the council's choice to excommunicate. Some people have dual accounts. You're not getting excited about martalina's new account, why are you upset by jabba's?


If its not obvious to you why someone of council has an alt account for the purpose trolling and causing problems on some wanna-be stretch of a lesson learning philosophy beyond inappropriate then it just further proves there are no active quality members of leadership left.

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05 May 2019 23:28 #338083 by ren
No it isn't obvious to me. Please explain.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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06 May 2019 08:39 #338089 by Gisteron

Eleven wrote: You put in the work in just like any other school curriculum.

Except it is not like any other school curriculum. School curricula are often a matter of public record. Someone who has a school diploma of some sort has met standards of some sort. I don't even have to know what school they went to, let alone what teachers instructed them to have at least some idea of what they must have learned. I certainly needn't be an expert in their field either. Even many degree schemes come with standards. I can reasonably expect a historian of any caliber to have covered the Gallian conquest, the French revolution, and the World Wars. I know an economist will have read about the theories of Keynes and Smith, probably even Marx. One doesn't get to walk out with a physics degree without knowing someting about thermodynamics, and one isn't much of a philosopher if one knows neither of Aristotle nor of Kant.
Yet, you are a Knight of the Temple of the Jedi Order and that tells me nothing about the work you put in to get there. What have you learned? I can expect that you have worked your way through one form of the Initiates' Programme or another, with what fuzzy standards there are for that. At any rate, that doesn't make one a Knight, and everything else is blank. I don't know what test you had to pass, if any, and whether your fellow Knights had to also, even among those instructed by your very own training master if indeed there are others.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to question the legitimacy of your rank or challenge your sense of accomplishment about it. If in your experience it was a lot like any other school, that's great, and I hope your apprentices will be instructed in a consistent manner and knighted as a matter of recognition of their performance. I'm glad you were, if it is so. A question as to what rank is all about wouldn't come up and persist for so long however, if rank was clearly a matter of academic achievement or a popularity contest, because it would be obvious to almost all which one it is.

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06 May 2019 13:53 #338092 by ren
The senior knight rank is purely academic, but knight is earned through an apprenticeship, so the quality of a knight largely depends on the TM.

The council had asked for more transparency years back but some TMs at the time got upset by that.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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