How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

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07 May 2019 19:19 #338165 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Proteus wrote:
According to your stance, what is wrong with this paragraph?



Wait a minute...is this a test? I got a better idea, why don't you just spit out what you are trying to say instead of being all mysterious and cryptic. Believe me, your no yoda.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
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07 May 2019 19:34 #338166 by Proteus
Well, I thought you didn't believe in telling other people what to do or how to behave. I'm even more curious about your paragraph now. And to be fair, it is a simple question.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts

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07 May 2019 19:35 #338167 by ren
Proteus wasn't cryptic. He not-directly-enough pointed out you contradict yourself. Unless by 'serve and teach', you mean ice-cold Coca-Colas and monkeys how to dance. But we both know that's not what knights are for. Proteus is very gently trying to do you a service, 'serve and teach', as a knight should, but he won't force you to learn.

Manu wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I try to build - rarely tear down.


“Every act of creation begins with an act of destruction” - Pablo Picasso


My immediate thought was 'isn't building and tearing down in equal measure the very nature of the Force?'

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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07 May 2019 19:42 #338169 by Kyrin Wyldstar

ren wrote: Proteus wasn't cryptic. He not-directly-enough pointed out you contradict yourself. Unless by 'serve and teach', you mean ice-cold Coca-Colas and monkeys how to dance. But we both know that's not what knights are for. Proteus is very gently trying to do you a service, 'serve and teach', as a knight should, but he won't force you to learn


Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

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08 May 2019 13:16 #338195 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Well I honestly didnt expect that question to be a conversation killer! lol, Im really curious now, I still do not see where any of my comments were contradictory or hypocritical or inconsistent. I told no one how to behave, I simply pointed out expectation vs standard as is defined by the temple as I understand the concepts. Nothing can be learned if nothing is ventured so I would take the silence as a strong indicator that I am on the right track here. Am I wrong?

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
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08 May 2019 13:41 #338199 by ZealotX

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I ask you this? How is rank actually about academics in the courses of study here instead of simply a popularity contest? If you achieve the academics are you guaranteed the rank as in a traditional university? Or are you still subject to the scrutiny of a specific clique of individuals that were not elected, but appointed, to decide your value in a rank?

I have recently come to some epiphanies in this ranking structure. I have seen knight after knight melt down and either be excommunicated, rage quit or outright banned while the "quieter" jedi, with no rank, continue on over time, being a voice of reason and wisdom time and time again. These people I refer to have been my greatest sources of inspiration, steadfast perseverance and wisdom, while these so called knights have faltered and destroyed themselves over and over. Power corrupts... So I want to ask, who are the true Jedi here?


short answer: an order is not a school.

long answer:

Definition (Webster)
1a
: a group of people united in a formal way: such as
(1) : a fraternal society

being a "group of people" the structure is determined by the leader(s) of the group. If they determine that rank is subject to a list of criteria including academics then those levels include but are not limited to academics. If this were the case then any order could be "infiltrated" by members of an opposing faction and eventually corrupted/changed from within. Any Order should therefore protect itself from this by formulating criteria that would keep "undesirables" and other infiltrators out so as not to change in a way in which the Order ceases to be; according to its original mission/intent/purpose.

Example:
What keeps Russia (an enemy to the US) from running their own candidates for President of the US?

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08 May 2019 14:03 #338205 by Manu

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?


The inconsistency I see is that in the FAQs, "Rank" is explicitly stated as being related to the amount of study (academics):
[b]Ranking Structure[/b]
You can identify the ranks of members by the Rank Bar which can be found underneath their profile picture.
These are the types of ranking in the Order:
A Status is related to the rights and responsibilities (some legal) a member has.
A Rank is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished.
An Office is a specific organisational position held by a person.
A Clerical Rank is the position within the Clergy.

It does, however, continue to clarify:
[b]Knight - Rank[/b]
An Apprentice who has successfully completed their apprenticeship to the satisfaction of their Teaching Master and the Council. [b][color=red]They uphold the principles of Jediism as defined by the Solemn Vow[/color][/b], and have completed the Degree to A.Div level. They can take on Apprentices of their own. A Knight must be at least eighteen years of age (18).

The Solemn Vow states a Knight's commitment to the Order via "uphold the Jedi teachings", and it mentions the duties and responsibilities of a Knight, though it does not define what those are:
"I, [legal name] born on [dd/mm/yyyy], profess before all and without reservation, that I choose to devote myself to the Jedi path. I vow to uphold the Jedi teachings, to fulfil the duties and responsibilities of a knight, and to cultivate an understanding of the Force."

Long-term consistency trumps short term intensity
- Bruce Lee

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08 May 2019 14:19 - 08 May 2019 14:25 #338206 by ZealotX

Manu wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Oh really? Because those are the principles that have been pounded into us all since I have been here. But by all means please tell me, what is the function of a knight here?


The inconsistency I see is that in the FAQs, "Rank" is explicitly stated as being related to the amount of study (academics):
[b]Ranking Structure[/b]
You can identify the ranks of members by the Rank Bar which can be found underneath their profile picture.
These are the types of ranking in the Order:
A Status is related to the rights and responsibilities (some legal) a member has.
A Rank is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished.
An Office is a specific organisational position held by a person.
A Clerical Rank is the position within the Clergy.

It does, however, continue to clarify:
[b]Knight - Rank[/b]
An Apprentice who has successfully completed their apprenticeship to the satisfaction of their Teaching Master and the Council. [b][color=red]They uphold the principles of Jediism as defined by the Solemn Vow[/color][/b], and have completed the Degree to A.Div level. They can take on Apprentices of their own. A Knight must be at least eighteen years of age (18).

The Solemn Vow states a Knight's commitment to the Order via "uphold the Jedi teachings", and it mentions the duties and responsibilities of a Knight, though it does not define what those are:
"I, [legal name] born on [dd/mm/yyyy], profess before all and without reservation, that I choose to devote myself to the Jedi path. I vow to uphold the Jedi teachings, to fulfil the duties and responsibilities of a knight, and to cultivate an understanding of the Force."


except that related to is not a statement of equivalence. My sister and I are related. We're obviously not the same person or have the same level of education.

What is written is there to give you an idea of "qualifications"... "qualifiers".... that's not definitive. That's like saying that anyone who finishes law school is automatically a lawyer and anyone who finishes med school is automatically a doctor.

If you keep reading the FAQs it states further qualifications (ie. must be at least 16 and must be trained). It never states that TOJO is required to train someone. That is completely at the discretion of the knights. And if I were a knight I would personally take into consideration as a major factor, the character, personality, and disposition of a person before I decided to train them because I would feel responsible for them because it would be a result of my training that would allow them to obtain a certain rank(power) which they could abuse.

So therefore, the qualifications documented are basic qualifiers true for everyone while the rest of the qualifications might change from knight to knight because it's their choice who they decide to train. And honestly, I couldn't agree more with TOJO on how one gets to the rank of knight. Just because people want something doesn't mean they should have it. As someone said, "you can't always get what you want".

(special shout out to Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)
Last edit: 08 May 2019 14:25 by ZealotX.
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08 May 2019 14:24 #338208 by Manu

ZealotX wrote: So therefore, the qualifications documented are basic qualifiers true for everyone while the rest of the qualifications might change from knight to knight because it's their choice who they decide to train. And honestly, I couldn't agree more with TOJO on how one gets to the rank of knight. Just because people want something doesn't mean they should have it. As someone said, "you can't always get what you want".


I agree with you completely. I am just pointing out that it is possible to further clarify things in the FAQ page, so we can have fewer of these conversations. ;)

ZealotX wrote: (special shout out to Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)
https://images.app.goo.gl/AoxFF3mczKBt8xZ99


I find your lack of image pasting skills disturbing. :laugh:

Long-term consistency trumps short term intensity
- Bruce Lee
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08 May 2019 14:26 #338209 by ZealotX
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