Discussing ideas, not people

Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Well to me it looks like you got angry that you were denied Knighthood a couple of years ago and you've been poking members ever since while complaining about the Council and Temple over all. Then Zenchi stood up and told you off because he'd been through similar things when he was newer here and got pulled up for it, and didn't like what you were doing. Then ren jumped in on your side because he has a prior existing beef with Zenchi, and so Zenchi's Apprentice (now Knight) stood up for Zenchi being ganged up and bullied on by both you and Councillor ren. You yourself have been banned a few times from memory but that was done by Council so I wasn't really following it. So you've been given lots of chances to fit into the Temple, but seem to have troubles doing so. So I tried to not ignore you recently, and answer your questions and reply with you as honestly and fairly as I could on several topics which are important to me, but found you've just been getting worse with the course of probing turning to insulting depending on who gets frustrated first, them or you. And then when challenged about the insults you tend to cry conspiracy and put on the victim outfit. Much like you did when you were denied Knighthood. And now, it' so long running and complicated that anyone who tries to get a handle on it without the full story tends to side on the Jedi'esk position of turning the other cheek.

I personally have no beef with Kyrin, just with breaches of rules as I see them and only because I've been tasked as Mod for half a decade and more recently as Security Officer. People lie all the time on forums, and this one is no exception, even up to the highest levels. So, and otherwise, I'd just advise people to report it to the appropriate people and not engage troublemakers., but remember sometimes action takes time. The more evidence can be provided of wrongdoings the better.

But at the end of the day its in effect ren website, and what ends up happening is what he wants (if he is bothered to take a position). So if the participation rules no longer reflect the wants of ren and the Council, then I'd hope Council would change the rules and stop wasting everyone's time.

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Well to me it looks like you got angry that you were denied Knighthood a couple of years ago and you've been poking members ever since while complaining about the Council and Temple over all. Then Zenchi stood up and told you off because he'd been through similar things when he was newer here and got pulled up for it, and didn't like what you were doing. Then ren jumped in on your side because he has a prior existing beef with Zenchi, and so Zenchi's Apprentice (now Knight) stood up for Zenchi being ganged up and bullied on by both you and Councillor ren. You yourself have been banned a few times from memory but that was done by Council so I wasn't really following it. So you've been given lots of chances to fit into the Temple, but seem to have troubles doing so. So I tried to not ignore you recently, and answer your questions and reply with you as honestly and fairly as I could on several topics which are important to me, but found you've just been getting worse with the course of probing turning to insulting depending on who gets frustrated first, them or you. And then when challenged about the insults you tend to cry conspiracy and put on the victim outfit. Much like you did when you were denied Knighthood. And now, it' so long running and complicated that anyone who tries to get a handle on it without the full story tends to side on the Jedi'esk position of turning the other cheek.

I personally have no beef with Kyrin, just with breaches of rules as I see them and only because I've been tasked as Mod for half a decade and more recently as Security Officer. People lie all the time on forums, and this one is no exception, even up to the highest levels. So, and otherwise, I'd just advise people to report it to the appropriate people and not engage troublemakers., but remember sometimes action takes time. The more evidence can be provided of wrongdoings the better.

But at the end of the day its in effect ren website, and what ends up happening is what he wants (if he is bothered to take a position). So if the participation rules no longer reflect the wants of ren and the Council, then I'd hope Council would change the rules and stop wasting everyone's time.

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Tellahane wrote:

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Just because I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time. Why is he still even an admin, I thought he was removed....
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Adder wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Just because I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time. Why is he still even an admin, I thought he was removed....
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Good question to ask him I just work here...

First there have always been multiple superadmins, all with the ability to make backups.
Second I have always respected council decisions.
Third I was not removed. Other things are keeping me busy and I have failed to perform my duties for some time.
Fourth Kyrin can confirm I have asked her to stay away from Zenchi and Ari.
Fifth It is the way you, Adder, unfairly treat kyrin and perform your mod duties that causes me to support her, because she is no less deserving of fairness than anyone else.
Sixth I think kyrin makes valuable contributions and like many others wish the delivery were dramatically different.
Seventh you are completely out of line, get back in it.

My delivery is something I work incredibly hard on. I'm hoping to further that through a B-Div program. Senan and i were working that as well, unfortunately all things have their season and so new avenues must be found.

Is this the way of the temple? Is the past so important? Has the temple been so horrible devided over some little rift raft? Let's not attack one another. This is a church after all is it not.

ren wrote: First there have always been multiple superadmins, all with the ability to make backups.

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

ren wrote: Second I have always respected council decisions.

Well I've seen you bully Mark Anjuu and Wescli Werdast in Council and when it came to you or them Br John always sided with you, seemingly because only you had the keys to the site!

ren wrote: Third I was not removed. Other things are keeping me busy and I have failed to perform my duties for some time.

I was talking about Kyrin being banned, not you. Since you bought it up you did chose to leave for quite awhile, at your own admission, but retained full control and access etc. But its not what I said so has little relevance.

ren wrote: Fourth Kyrin can confirm I have asked her to stay away from Zenchi and Ari.

And?

ren wrote: Fifth It is the way you, Adder, unfairly treat kyrin and perform your mod duties that causes me to support her, because she is no less deserving of fairness than anyone else.

Which mod duties are those ren? Because I was just going through the thread about Kyrin and I had pretty much stayed out of it entirely until about 2 months ago. And then all I did once was a lock a thread from getting out of hand. You seem to be grasping and reaching a bit buddy... prove it or lose it. A lot of people are sick of your BS more then anyone elses.... if your going to join in and escalate things at least put some meat on the bone.

ren wrote: Sixth I think kyrin makes valuable contributions and like many others wish the delivery were dramatically different.

I agree. I've 'thanked' her posts a few times. Relevance??

ren wrote: Seventh you are completely out of line, get back in it.

So its ok for Kyrin and you to throw muck at people but not people to throw it back at youz. Typical. Feel free to clarify otherwise I'll ignore you entirely. I don't mind losing 'Security Officer' or moderation roles one iota if that is what your suggesting, but it was raised that there was an issue between Kyrin and I, and Kyrin had her say so I think its fair I get to point my version also. Unless your referring to my comments about you, so feel free to clarify.

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

I'm an outsider looking in. A member of this church. There is others like me who are reading. We do have clergy and council. This is not the place nor the time to bring the past up. From my understanding Twllahane now has a copy. So why bring this up?

Well I've seen you bully Mark Anjuu and Wescli Werdast in Council and when it came to you or them Br John always sided with you, seemingly because only you had the keys to the site!

I Feel bad if this is the case. There is Clergy to talk to about these matters. The council does have a lot of control on what goes on. They are a team and one Council member does not have total control thus is why we have a council. We must have faith in them.

I was talking about Kyrin being banned, not you. Since you bought it up you did chose to leave for quite awhile, at your own admission, but retained full control and access etc. But its not what I said so has little relevance.

Never the less this is not the place for this. I'm not taking sides because I dont know what happened I just really want to make it known that this is not the place nor the time for fighting other Jedi.



And?

Which mod duties are those ren? Because I was just going through the thread about Kyrin and I had pretty much stayed out of it entirely until about 2 months ago. And then all I did once was a lock a thread from getting out of hand. You seem to be grasping and reaching a bit buddy... prove it or lose it. A lot of people are sick of your BS more then anyone elses.... if your going to join in and escalate things at least put some meat on the bone.

You take part blame in escalating things... Be mindful. Remember that nows not the time. A more diplomatic approach will help your cause a lot more.

I agree. I've 'thanked' her posts a few times. Relevance??

is the word relevance needed? I'm sure you have thanked her. There is no need to add anything more to that.

So its ok for Kyrin and you to throw muck at people but not people to throw it back at youz. Typical. Feel free to clarify otherwise I'll ignore you entirely. I don't mind losing 'Security Officer' or moderation roles one iota if that is what your suggesting, but it was raised that there was an issue between Kyrin and I, and Kyrin had her say so I think its fair I get to point my version also. Unless your referring to my comments about you, so feel free to clarify.

It would be a great loss to lose you mainly if the accusations you say are true. I really hope people can over look your comments and some things can get worked out more diplomatically.

Please don't take what i say as taking sides. I just know this is the wrong way to go about doing this.

May the force be with you.

This thread has gotten wildly out of wing. Can we bring it around?

Ideas , not people

Zenith Felwood wrote: It would be a great loss to lose you mainly if the accusations you say are true. I really hope people can over look your comments and some things can get worked out more diplomatically.

Please don't take what i say as taking sides. I just know this is the wrong way to go about doing this.

May the force be with you.

Thanks for your contributions? It takes two to tango, and a troop to really dance... but specificity at me aside, I agree with your idealism 100%. That is what the rules try to protect. It's sometimes the rules are hard to enforce. I'm partially to blame because I've long been a proponent of second and third chances and taking a moderate approach. Not only a year ago I was arguing for a softer approach on Kyrin that was being discussed by some Councillors... so who you believe is up to you.

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

The other mod has pointed out to you that kyrin gets reported for things other people do not get reported for. You are the main source of these reports. When you asked that she be banned it was pointed out to you by the other mod that she had not accrued enough points to warrant it according to the new system. When you showed dissatisfaction with the new system and JL's absense, I suggested you petition the council through the proper channels. The feedback councillors other than me gave you is 'we arent interested, work with Karn and JL as you should'

Everyone who has ever had a bright red name has been able to press a button to perform a backup and download it. I installed the button.
Proteus was my assistant and then full admin when I resigned. He wasnt ready for it and i was asked to come back. I said it couldnt be like before, and it wasnt. Proteus lost it following slanderous accusations from Clint and a few of his friends. Tellahane didnt wrestle a thing from me. He was admin, ragequit one day then came back.

You have no idea what Clint tried to do to totjo. I know because John told me. What I can tell you is that Clint fabricated serious accusations against Proteus and Alexandre Orion. It was me who spent hours going through the logs and their PMs to verify the sick invented claims. I hate clint for it, its no secret. When it comes to Mark he disappeared, I picked up the pieces, he came back like nothing happened. I had a good bitching, i admit it. Someone who is councillor and pastor shouldnt just disappear. He was then permanently driven away by the totjo knights, not by me, and for baffling reasons. They didnt want him to be a Knight anymore I think. Made no sense, didnt pay attention.

And yes, I was referring to your comments about me. They are out of line, stop throwing baseless accusations around.

Now can we please go back to the topic.

There tends to be a common adage used in TotJO that goes like this:

"Discuss ideas, not people".

I know that the "spirit" of the adage is to avoid ad hominem fallacies, and especially to deter personal attacks.

However, I do think the separation between "person" and "idea" can be a bit arbitrary (i.e., sometimes it "seems" the "person" is being discussed, when in reality it is a much deeper analysis of the idea - and the motivators and experiences behind it - which is being explored).

My question is: is it possible that by avoiding "discussing the person" we might be missing out on the opportunity to explore ideas, mindsets and deep motivations that might lead to exponential personal growth?

[/quote]

As seen in this thread i think the point has been proven through rift, raft, anger, hate, emotion. I know even in my work place when people work long hard hours. And management has time crunches people miss important information. Leading them from opportunity of personal growth. The force is stronger as a whole. Devotion is the way of the force not division. That's my thoughts.

ren wrote:

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

The other mod has pointed out to you that kyrin gets reported for things other people do not get reported for. You are the main source of these reports.

Huh? What do you mean by main... did you do a count, is it a gut feeling, or are you making a lie? Because that makes no sense. She'd been banned and had half a dozen threads in Council before I even reported her once LOL.
If your talking about her 'questionable member thread', then that had been going for basically a whole year before I posted any of her behaviour. My rare participation in her thread prior to that had been clarifying why she didn't get Knighted and providing some feedback about how I thought it best to work with questionable members (using PM's etc).
Even up until the 19th of March I still was supporting a moderate approach to her.

ren wrote: And yes, I was referring to your comments about me. They are out of line, stop throwing baseless accusations around.

Oh really, which bit? Was it "I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time". That doesn't seem too harsh to me but it seems to have illicited a strong emotional response in you. Because your replies have been pretty baseless to me.
You say I "unfairly treat kyrin" and have not proven it yet. So... your sorta the one making a baseless accusation. If the best you can come up with is that I have made the most reports against Kyrin, then prove that at least. Even if it were true (which I highly doubt) it is the job of the moderator to make these reports so the powers that be can be the power thats needed, and one troublemaker with many victims will inevitably have more reports on them then the many victims will each have. Plus who starts something gets my attention more then who plays along. It's the 'eastern' approach mate, treat the root cause and the symptoms go away

ren wrote: When you asked that she be banned it was pointed out to you by the other mod that she had not accrued enough points to warrant it according to the new system.

Come on Councillor, your bigger then this. I stated that I was not aware the new security policy was in effect because it had not been stated as such and I thought it was still in draft and discussion phase. So I was using the existing older system. I think we still are using the older system at the moment anyway.

ren wrote: When you showed dissatisfaction with the new system and JL's absense,

False on both counts. I indicated JL's absence and pointed to a post where he indicated it so everyone knew as an update on progress. So to facilitate progress and explain delays. Though no system is ideal of course. Maybe you don't like the ideas on the table and intepret their progression as a bad thing and so blame me for it

ren wrote: I suggested you petition the council through the proper channels. The feedback councillors other than me gave you is 'we arent interested, work with Karn and JL as you should'

You are the proper channel and you saw the request.... so the more salient question is why you didn't you take it to Council. Again perhaps because you don't agree? I hope not, your position should be above that subjective bias. But I didn't start this anyway.... Rosalyn J had already drafted a letter to Kyrin in the preceding month, and it has been discussed in Council well before I posted it. But back to me, I discussed it with other Councillors who gave a directive in the absence of JL. So..... whats your point again?

I already explained to you that a q thread or any other random thread is not the appropriate way of contacting the council. You cab pm a formal request if you want to make one, although based on the feedback you had so far i think you know what the answer will be. As to the rest...

I have no need to prove anything. I have better things than to track down every single post that breaks the rules and demonstrate to you you have ignored every single one that isn't made by kyrin. I have no need to demonstrate to you that you have a personal bias in those reports you made. I have no need to make you a better man or mod or whatever. It's your call. I don't care. What I see is that you were being unfair and as such I must intervene.

You insinuated that it has to do with Zenchi. It doesn't. It has to do with you. If you didnt want to be told, you shouldn't have insinuated.

@Adder your posts are usually written in such a precise and articulate way that some of us (mostly me) finds it utterly incomprehensible. I find it rather refreshing to see you write in a more straightforward style.

@All I realize many, especially newcomers, might interpret the direction this thread has taken as “scandalous”, aggressive or “un-Jedi”. But I would caution anyone from dismissing this thread as “folly” that results from not following rules, and appreciate the transparency that flows from this apparent chaos.

It is a bonding moment. At least I see it that way. I have come to appreciate everyone here more, as the elegant poised persona is removed to reveal the passionate, beautiful beings you are.

Both of u are out of line I wish I could close this thread. Pointless arguments.

ren wrote: I already explained to you that a q thread or any other random thread is not the appropriate way of contacting the council. You cab pm a formal request if you want to make one, although based on the feedback you had so far i think you know what the answer will be. As to the rest...

I think you mean the other person who asked for action to be taken. But that was after my request. I agree the q thread is not the right place to ensure the right person sees it, but the right person did see it. I posted it there because I didn't want it to be on record in case you ignored a PM request. I should have just posted it in Council but since the topic was alive it seemed apt. The question remains why you chose to ignore it I suppose. But you've since indicated a vote needs to be motioned and seconded by a Councillor perhaps you yourself were waiting for it to happen in that thread - in which case it was the right place for it didn't make it into Council!!!

ren wrote: I have no need to prove anything. I have better things than to track down every single post that breaks the rules and demonstrate to you you have ignored every single one that isn't made by kyrin. I have no need to demonstrate to you that you have a personal bias in those reports you made. I have no need to make you a better man or mod or whatever. It's your call. I don't care. What I see is that you were being unfair and as such I must intervene.

Then they stand as baseless, and you could have spared us all if you didn't make the accusations. I can point out other posts of mine in Kyrin's thread where I'm supporting a calmer approach to her then others are.

ren wrote: You insinuated that it has to do with Zenchi. It doesn't. It has to do with you. If you didnt want to be told, you shouldn't have insinuated.

You trippin? See you keep making accusations without any evidence. If you keep it up I'll just have to assume your lying outright. When does this issue I seem to have with Kyrin begin and how does this relate to her problems at the Temple!!!?