Debating the existence of toxic masculinity/femininity

Typo thanks !

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: So, have we as a society, grown out of the * edit: sexual label of male and female and have not realized we have ? Or does that label still linger? Toxicity is tocicity - no matter the label.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

rugadd wrote: I don't think genders even really exist outside of people believing they do.

All of the vaginas and penises of the world would disagree with you.

Connor L. wrote: Gender is a description. And, yes, made up.

Gender is a description of physical and physiological attributes of the body. They are different and they are not made up, they are based on physical evidence and biological function. You cant be born a male and just decide to be female. That's like being born human and then just deciding your a cat.

#ironic

Zenchi wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

rugadd wrote: I don't think genders even really exist outside of people believing they do.

All of the vaginas and penises of the world would disagree with you.

Connor L. wrote: Gender is a description. And, yes, made up.

Gender is a description of physical and physiological attributes of the body. They are different and they are not made up, they are based on physical evidence and biological function. You cant be born a male and just decide to be female. That's like being born human and then just deciding your a cat.

#ironic

I also live in a world where it can be chosen. I’m ok with that. The more I think on it the more I realize myself - I’ve grown past gender roles and gender it self. I know it’s there. I have eyes but when I see some one it’s a person I see. I wish we could all see that but I join the many who have and go un noticed or even opposed due to it. I think the society had expired gender differences now but we as humans still sling to the “program” of it - like moving from a Mac to Windows - our frustration come from what the other isn’t like the last. Toxicity dwells every where. Not in names or labels or in groups - everywhere - like death - it cares not for our fancy names and silliness. My own practice of course. My hope is on this subject we grow as people.

I know its boring but it would probably be helpful to get some definitions agreed on.

Biological Sex - determined at conception and identified via certain physical and chromosomal characteristics like having a penis or having a vagina, XY chromosomes etc. This determines whether you are male or female biologically. There are people born with indeterminate physical characteristics or both sets of physical characteristics. People can undertake invasive surgery to alter their physical characteristics but as yet one can't alter one's chromosomes.

Gender Identity - determined as a social contract between an individual and society. 90%+ of people identify as the same gender and as their biological sex. As society becomes less dogmatic many people are able to identify as a different gender to their biological sex and some have adopted genders beyond the simple male / female options. In a free world, this shouldn't be a problem. A man can wear make-up and a woman can wear a beard.

Gender Norms - these determine what physical and character traits are viewed by society as being typical for different genders. Drag Queens, transvestites, and english pantomimes have blurred these boundaries for years, and this blurring continues.

I have met men who have a toxic masculinity about them and I have met women who also suffer with their own toxic masculinity. Likewise there exist women who have a toxic femininity about them, as well as men. The point is that toxic masculinity is not confined to men, and toxic femininity is not confined to women. In all cases this is not an objective analysis, its just one person's view vs another's. These aspects only exist in our minds and they should only apply to an individual at a specific point in time. Castagating half the population as uniformly the same, and suffering from some endemic problem is crazy.

All people have a mix of masculine and feminine attributes to them, as defined by society, at any time. Some biological females can be more masculine than some biological males, and vice versa. This balance can change through life and in different circumstances.

Understandably, people get very confused by all this especially when you throw sexual proclivity into the mix too. Ideally we end-up with everyone having traditionally masculine AND feminine character traits in abundance and being able to employ them as appropriate.

Loudzoo wrote: The point is that toxic masculinity is not confined to men, and toxic femininity is not confined to women.

Then why label it in such terms if its not confined to the gender?

Loudzoo wrote: All people have a mix of masculine and feminine attributes to them, as defined by society, at any time.

Exactly what is a masculine attribute? what is a feminine attribute? whose society is defining these terms? If we have the freedom and ability to just decide we have a different gender identity than our biological sex then I think it just as possible to assign any attribute to either sex as well. This means there is no such thing as masculine or feminine traits, there are only traits and I would appreciate it if people would stop assigning toxicity in a global blanket term that does not exist.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Loudzoo wrote: The point is that toxic masculinity is not confined to men, and toxic femininity is not confined to women.

Then why label it in such terms if its not confined to the gender?

Loudzoo wrote: All people have a mix of masculine and feminine attributes to them, as defined by society, at any time.

Exactly what is a masculine attribute? what is a feminine attribute? whose society is defining these terms? If we have the freedom and ability to just decide we have a different gender identity than our biological sex then I think it just as possible to assign any attribute to either sex as well. This means there is no such thing as masculine or feminine traits, there are only traits and I would appreciate it if people would stop assigning toxicity in a global blanket term that does not exist.

But it does and arguments happen about it all the time and people display the actions all the time . My wife is entering the American Corp world. It exist as much as racism and hate. It drives some and hurts others.

For me the matter I hope is others see this some how their own way. I’ll have to agree with you Kyrin on which trait is gender specific... truthfully none are but we can generally find them in any one - I had to BREAK my pattern for myself and look way past my set boundaries at times and even further my boundaries. But ... for me - that’s what’s it’s all about - growing moving boundaries changing ideas seeing more less adjusting. Does it exist -yes it does. Does poison exist or danger - as well- yes it does. I put a few things togeather - these for me help. I don’t go to the store and buy dynamite just to have it ... not my thing.

I disagree that there is “toxic masculinity” perpetrated by women.

First, because the toxic gender norms are not set by a man or a woman, but by society. In this way, a society (in whatever scale it might be: government through laws, family through enforcing values, etc.) sets up the “norm” for men, which makes it easier for men to play into it, especially if uneducated.

Women would have no inherent enabling by society to act out masculine values. Usually, society tries to push women away from doing “men stuff” (which is why you have victim shaming for female rape victims, and the term “tomboy” for women who break out of their gender norm).

This of course does not exclude some women from being violent, abusive, assholes. They just aren’t silently excused by society’s expectation. The same way society has a general tendency to look down on men who take on “female” roles, such as being stay at home dads or not being the primary bread winner.

Of course there is no point in automatically assuming an entire gender is somehow flawed or more predisposed to violence. But we shouldn’t neglect that environment does play an influence in what people get away with.

Manu wrote: I disagree that there is “toxic masculinity” perpetrated by women.

I would agree as well because I don't believe the term is a valid term in the first place. But I dont think you have valid points for the rest of your statement.

What makes up a society that sets gender norms? Males and females, right? So yes they do set them up actually.

A free society would in fact provide the very mechanisms for women to act out normally male roles. Societies that push women away from this are wrong. We can have male nurses and female fighter pilots and that is perfectly valid. What about victim shaming for male rape victims? That is just as valid a thing as calling a male a sissy for breaking gender norms. Both cross gender boundaries and both are just as invalid.

Are you actually trying to say that males that are violent, abusive, assholes are silently excused by society? There is absolutely no reason to think this is even a slightly valid assertion. They are not condoned or excused. And of course there is reason to assume one gender might be more predisposed to some attributes. Violence is not one of them however, violence is an action not a trait. Aggression on the other hand, a trait, might be, as I stated in the other thread, however to take this fact and apply it globally and then make the claim that it leads to violence by making up a term like toxic masculinity is wrong.

I feel that a conversation about gender-norms ought to include this information.

"Converging lines of empirical evidence—from developmental neuroscience, medical genetics, evolutionary biology, cross-cultural psychology, and new studies of transsexuality—along with our evolutionary heritage, all point to the same conclusion: There are psychological differences between men and women.
The dramatic physical and behavioral differences between men and women, including strength and size, pubertal timing, consistent patterns around the world of hunting versus gathering and childrearing, as well as pervasive differences in risk-taking, mortality, and reproductive requirements, attest to the likelihood that evolution sculpted adaptations into men and women that make us somewhat different creatures. "
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201711/the-truth-about-sex-differences


"The neuroscience community had largely considered any observed sex-associated differences in cognition and behavior in humans to be due to the effects of cultural influences. Animal researchers, for their part, seldom even bothered to use female rodents in their experiments, figuring that the cyclical variations in their reproductive hormones would introduce confounding variability into the search for fundamental neurological insights.

But over the past 15 years or so, there’s been a sea change as new technologies have generated a growing pile of evidence that there are inherent differences in how men’s and women’s brains are wired and how they work."
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html


"The scientific study of gender differences has yielded a wealth of robust generalizations about the way males and females differ across domains, cultures, and developmental stages. This article provides a descriptive overview of gender differences in personality, social cooperation and competition (including aggression and play), and verbal and nonverbal communication."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956064_Gender_Differences_in_Personality_and_Social_Behavior

Gosh - plenty to unpick here!

Masculine and Feminine character traits are defined by society, but they are not arbitrary. Our biological sex is correlated to certain personality traits and from these - certain gender norms have emerged. To a great extent the current 'culture wars' are about who has the power to define the gender norms. As a society freeing itself from the bondage of a dogmatic culture it becomes possible to recognise more gender fluidity. Perhaps the gender stereotypes are not as fixed as they have been perceived to be in the past?

I agree with OB1's additions to the definitions - but the key is here that they are average differences - they do not necessarily apply to a given individual. In a population of 7 billion + that means you end up with a small percentage, but large number, of people who do not fit gender norms. Also there is a massive overlap between the dominant character traits of people with differing biological sex.

Having worked for many years in a relatively aggressive environment (bond trading) I met many women who overcompensated for their expected gender character traits. On occasion I think it would be fair to say they displayed a toxic masculinity (e.g. aggression, threats, grudge-holding, power abuse, selfishness). I also expect this understanding is different between countries. Anyone in the UK who lived for 11 years under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher will have little problem seeing toxic masculinity in certain women!

Having said all of that, its not clear that labeling certain character traits as masculine or feminine is particularly helpful anymore. In that sense I agree that there should be no such thing as toxic masculinity / femininity. The reality is, however, that too much of any character trait can be 'toxic'. Our language is clumsy in this regard.

Perhaps it would be easier to say that men, women, and people who define themselves as something else, can all be assholes! No group has the monopoly on that . . .