Masculinity as a Mental health issue

Brick wrote:

Luthien wrote: 100 years ago most of the traits now considered to be 'toxic masculinity', were the ideal traits that all men should aspire to have.

Not even 100 years. Heck....not even 50.... These ideas and methods of "education" has only been a very recent trend.

Brick wrote:

Luthien wrote: That's exactly what I was getting at. The term toxic anything has to do with how something is harmful. So, yes, there is such thing as toxic masculinity, as there are harmful behaviours and ideals that are taught to males from a young age as normal. Nobody is attacking masculinity or manliness. In fact, we need more masculinity in society.

Define 'harmful ideas'. Who decides that they are harmful and why?

100 years ago most of the traits now considered to be 'toxic masculinity', were the ideal traits that all men should aspire to have. Society changes its mind about whats 'right' and 'wrong' or, in this case, 'toxic' and 'nontoxic' all the time. After all, we as Jedi know that (moral) concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion and over time. I don't think its in our interested to get too hung up on social trends.

So long as people aren't breaking the law, let their masculinity be as 'toxic' or 'nontoxic' as they want it to be.

I didn't say "ideas," I said "ideals." You know, those things that are subjective to a person or group as a thing to aspire to be? Harmful in a way that promotes violence or discrimination based on the idea that anything else is to be gotten rid of or tossed in the rubbish. And, who decides are those who are harmed. I could think of some historical contexts for toxic behaviors that invoked the idea that ideals are the way to run society (*ahem* Nazi Germany *ahem*). But, that would be too extreme and not current enough. Go back 100... heck, not even 50... years or so and you had a higher liklihood for being beaten or tortured.. I mean "treated" for the mental illness of homosexuality (it's not a mental illness, btw. I know you just love your history), or any man being able to get away with rape because, well, you know, women weren't treated as people, were they? Historical context matters right now, why? What is your point? Are we supposed to live in the past or hold those ideals to be what we aspire? Because we didn't have the same medicine as we did back then, would we just not consider it because it wasn't what was used 100, nay 50, years ago? That would be dumb. We change with the times, just as our methods of survival have changed. To better our society as a whole.

Also, I would point out that this little class that was posted about seems like an optional thing. Why we're sitting here arguing over what the intent is over an optional class seems a bit nit-picky. Somehow, people feel attacked by the idea that some behaviors are harmful to others and happen to be associated with what is taught as masculine these days. Sure, let people be people. I'm not contending that. But, someone makes a big deal about an optional class and I'm supposed to agree with their emotional attachment to their ideal about masculinity? Gimme a break.

Also, to those who are talking about teaching boys that it's awful to be boys, that ain't what's being offered. It's for adults in an adult education setting and has little to do with telling boys that being a boy is bad. You'd think that someone was calling for an extermination of males around the globe by the way that some are framing their arguments.

For me there is plenty of toxic behaviours being perpetuated as 'masculine'.... which need not be associated to masculinity. Even throughout history, and yes some are fads. It's toxic to guys themselves often, but mostly toxic to community, and partners etc. I've heard blokes talking about how many ladies they've knocked up and abandoned for example... in terms of conquest and manlneess, spreading the seed, being an 'alpha' and 'breeder'.... as if that is a measure of their strength.in terms of manliness. But I guess some women are shielded to the extent of it since most of it is 'man talk' sort of thing... and that is from normal blokes, not weird online crew.
And in that example, its toxic for the them because they end up with a lot of child support, which many skip but Government looks like it might start chasing properly soon, and its toxic for the children without a father and the ladies for being screwed around and left to be an only parent (which could arguably said to make it harder for them to find another partner as well!!!).
So yea, dunno what half the people posting here actually mean..... and attacking gender diversity as a fad is bizarre... there has been a history of gender diversity as long as history itself AFAIK. Though I guess its not very evident throughout popular culture so its easy to see why it's unknown.

Adder wrote: For me there is plenty of toxic behaviours being perpetuated as 'masculine'.... which need not be associated to masculinity. Even throughout history, and yes some are fads. It's toxic to guys themselves often, but mostly toxic to community, and partners etc. I've heard blokes talking about how many ladies they've knocked up and abandoned for example... in terms of conquest and manlneess, spreading the seed, being an 'alpha' and 'breeder'.... as if that is a measure of their strength.in terms of manliness.
And in that example, its toxic for the them because they end up with a lot of child support, which many skip but Government looks like it might start chasing properly soon, and its toxic for the children without a father and the ladies for being screwed around and left to be an only parent (which could arguably said to make it harder for them to find another partner as well!!!).
So yea, dunno what half the people posting here actually mean..... and attacking gender diversity as a fad is bizarre... there has been a history of gender diversity as long as history itself AFAIK. But I guess some women are shielded to the extent of it since most of it is 'man talk' sort of thing... and that is from normal blokes, not weird online crew.

I agree with this 100%. Well said.

Well , i think its worrying anyway and i still don't think its a good idea to tackle this non existent problem that has been created the last few years as some have pointed out a few times in this discussion , and saying that we are having a useless discussion is dismissive to say the least. Now i don't mind that , its what happens when people cannot see the use of such a discussion, and that's ok. But for the rest of the contributers , i am happy you would contribute and i have seen a few good opinions , even if i don't always agree with them.

I do not believe in 'genderism' and reject this sick religion. I also treat those who qualify something naturally occurring 'toxic' as a dead-end of evolution and immediately lose whatever interest i might have had in anyone who identifies as anything. When i walk off i get to play Big Sean's 'I don't give a fuck' in my head and thats the best feeling in the world.

ren wrote: I do not believe in 'genderism' and reject this sick religion. I also treat those who qualify something naturally occurring 'toxic' as a dead-end of evolution and immediately lose whatever interest i might have had in anyone who identifies as anything. When i walk off i get to play Big Sean's 'I don't give a fuck' in my head and thats the best feeling in the world.

I can see that , as far as i understand it is that there are two sexes male and female and somehow they got mingled up in this weird gender war.

male and female are sexes , not genders , genders are what people identify with , but genders have no scientific bases , sexes do. As far as i am concerned one can call themselves what one wants , but to call a sex toxic is just taking it a bridge too far in my opinion...

We are having this discussion because there is a trend in the gender war to try to change peoples opinions about masculine behaviour , but that behaviour should have been put down to the masculine in the first place ...that is the problem i have with this course !

Adder wrote: I've heard blokes talking about how many ladies they've knocked up and abandoned for example... in terms of conquest and manlneess, spreading the seed, being an 'alpha' and 'breeder'.... as if that is a measure of their strength.in terms of manliness. But I guess some women are shielded to the extent of it since most of it is 'man talk' sort of thing... .

The thing is. This isn't just a man thing. While the method is different - there are plenty of women who believe that if they get knocked up a bunch of times they can control (AKA become Alpha) the man due to child support and legal actions that protects them from responsability as long as they keep them babies coming.

This is not a Masculine Toxicity and a Feminine Toxicity - This is plain and simply being toxic, irresponsible and directly cruel to the other sex.

The issue is not the crime, but the manner in which the crime is being boxed. Instead of admitting that both man and woman can equally be idioc, we instead weigh one heavier over the other. That is the thing Im arguing against, not the crimes themselves.

As I mentioned. Call it what it is toxic people being toxic.

I think I can agree on the toxic part but then again , in my practice that’s one human telling another human your wrong or right. I myself struggle with this very label “sticking” myself. Regardless of sex or gender - I must remember as I practice that to me - is all I can define truthfully. To my own self —— It’s difficult for me to say - well this is toxic for that person and not have my Jedi senses begin to tingle and say well I truly can’t say that because I truly don’t know and can’t define things for others.( that’s my active practice)
I find it often when I tend to begin to define paths for others - that’s when I step away from my true chosen focus and Kinna loose track of things. A lot of us do. That’s ok too. The joy of our faith - one of many is we can always choose to get back on track.
There is ALOT of behavior out there that can be harmful or toxic.—edit - : there’s a lot of behavior I found myself expressing that was toxic for me - I hope others take the time to figure it out for themselfs!
It can be done ! If one can , everyone can.
May the force be with us all as we seek it