Why is the govt shut down. Dems or reps?

June 2010 to December 2011 there was no government in Belgium. The Netherlands took 7 months to form their last Government. Germany's still working out it's government since the 2017 elections... It really doesn't seem that big a deal, if the state just functions off the previous rules it had before a shutdown... But as Brian said, American Politics is confusing!

Twigga wrote: June 2010 to December 2011 there was no government in Belgium. The Netherlands took 7 months to form their last Government. Germany's still working out it's government since the 2017 elections... It really doesn't seem that big a deal, if the state just functions off the previous rules it had before a shutdown... But as Brian said, American Politics is confusing!

Admittedly, I'm not super informed on how the Belgium, Netherlands and German governments work Twiggy. But I think those countries are Parliamentary democracies like the UK? I was always under the impression that they therefore work in a similar fashion to how the UK ran when Brown lost the election and the coalition talks were under way.

ie, everything more or less continued as normal, the civil servants still all the normal stuff, the military still worked as normal, people still pick up the phone etc. it's just very difficult to pass certain bills through parliament. Because even if you don't have a government, you still have a fully working parliament, which is ultimately sovereign. The US doesnt work like that

But in the US, until they introduce an intermediary bill, the military stop getting paid etc. AND if you try and call the government, instead of getting a slightly confused civil servant answering the phone like you would in the UK, you currently get a voicemail saying:

"Unfortunately, we cannot answer your call today because Congressional Democrats are holding government funding - including funding for our troops and other national security priorities - hostage to an unrelated immigration debate. Due to this obstruction, the government is shut down."

So it seems to be a bigger deal in the US

:ohmy: That's awful!

Oh my word. I am so sorry America. Not fun!

yea its kinda stupid. The democrats are still mad they lost the last election and so they are literally holding the American people hostage (including those bravely serving in the military) while they throw a temper tantrum over a measure that has already been repealed and doesn't even remotely have anything to do with the budget. I find it childish and just ridiculous.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Senan wrote: In response to the original question, this is the first time a government shutdown has happened while one party controls both houses of Congress and the Presidency. That’s saying a LOT!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Thats not completely accurate because congress still needs a super majority to pass the bill. and the republicans dont have enough to just make that number without democratic help.

It is entirely accurate. It is the first time in the history of the United States that the government has been shut down while one party has control of Congress and the Presidency. Fact. It doesn't matter that Democrats won't help them. Republicans didn't help Democrats the last time it happened. It's Trump's job as President to be the broker between the two, and he sabatoged his own party's compromise that would've gotten them the votes they needed.

Senan wrote: And finally, the state of the economy is not all due to this administration. Unemployment was already going down under Obama’s last year and there was more job growth in his last December than in Trump’s first. The stock market made larger gains percentage wise under Obama as well, but Trump hasn’t had as long, so we’ll have to wait on that one, but it isn’t a fair indicator anyway. Something like 90% of the money invested in the market is owned by 5% of the public. It’s super rich getting super richer and has no impact on the ordinary American. My 401k certainly isn’t going nuts and making me millions, but I know the Koch brothers and Trump are making a killing.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Its true that its not completely fair to compare the two since Trump has only been in office one year. However in that first year we have seen the GDP grow at over 3% for two quarters. Some thing Obama could not say in his 8 years. And over this past year the stock market has grown 33% over Obamas 14% over 8 years. But these are not fair numbers since the time frames are different. Time will tell who is really doing better but with the new tax bill being put in place I have high hopes that that rate will continue to climb.

Im surprised you did not see your 401K grow. Mine did. It went from an average of 4% to over 14% growth and as a result of the tax cut and I received a special xmas bonus from my company! Plus over 200 companies have pledged to invest extra trillions of dollars into the economy next year as a result. In fact the tax cut now for the first time in decades puts the corporate tax rate at a place the same as the rest of the industrialized world. Before that it was much higher. With the creation of over 2.2 million jobs, its these sorts of things that I think will continue to provide awesome growth in the future.

That 14% growth in a 401k isn't wealth. It is speculation. That's what the market is based on. It is also what caused the crash and Great Depression in 1929. People thought a strong market meant a strong economy when in reality it was rich people and banks manipulating the public into believing there was real diversified money behind the market when there wasn't. Once people realized it was all fake, the rich people pulled all of the cash out and the market tanked.

That 401k money isn't yours until you take it out, and if you take it out early you are heavily taxed on it. There is no guarantee that when you are ready to retire, that growth won't have reversed itself or disappeared all together. That's why Social Security is so important. It isn't based on market fluctuation. Regretfully, both parties have raided our Social Security to pay down other debts and it has been treated like an entitlement that can be taken away from us rather than the savings account it was originally designed to be.

Also, GDP does not equal job growth or health of the middle class. The tax cut you keep praising is for 2018. It hasn't even had an effect on middle class income tax payers yet, and the growth in the market as a result is based on speculation of what could happen, not what actually will. When companies like Carrier and Walmart are eliminating jobs at a time that they are anticipating huge corporate tax windfalls, it is an indication that they are consolidating any wealth for themselves, not passing it down in the form of wage increases or more jobs. When the new tax code guts subsidized healthcare and eliminates many property tax and medical expense write offs, any savings promised to blue collar workers will be offset by higher cost of living. Instead of helping to grow the wealth of the consumer base and encourage legal employment of immigrants, the proposed budget cuts funding to programs that save people money while pouring more money into a bloated military and a needless boarder wall.

I'm not even saying this is all on Republicans. Both parties are to blame. What I am saying is that the current administration and Congress is setting us up for huge income disparity, and that never ends well for any economy.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: yea its kinda stupid. The democrats are still mad they lost the last election and so they are literally holding the American people hostage (including those bravely serving in the military) while they throw a temper tantrum over a measure that has already been repealed and doesn't even remotely have anything to do with the budget. I find it childish and just ridiculous.

Republicans are holding immigrants hostage threatening to deport people that were brought here as children and have lived here their entire lives, including those that served in the military and pay taxes. All so we can have a wall that would be ineffective in the 1700's, let alone now. Republicans are holding children hostage by refusing to fund Children's Health Insurance since last November so they have leverage to gut the Affordable Care Act . Republicans are forcing Federal Marshals, Federal Fire Protection, and essential military to still work without a paycheck, and everyone non-essential is just told to stay home and miss your next paycheck. That's a mortgage payment. That's medical bills. That's food on the table. This Congress can pass temporary spending measures to fund any programs they want without Democrats supporting them. Trump can still sign Executive Orders. Instead they have chosen to shut the whole thing down and watch parents sweat over paying for their children to see a doctor and families wonder if their parents will be sent back to a country they have never known. Meanwhile, Trump is using our tax money to pay his own resorts to host his golf outings.

Hostage takers are the ones that hold the keys to the jail cell door. It is pretty clear to me who has them right now.

Well I would blame all that missed paycheck crap on the democrats trying to attach a non relevant bill on immigration to the federal funding bill!! And as for the dreamers I have already written my thoughts on them. However, the fact remains that if its decreed that they must leave, then they must leave. After all they are illegally in this country, even if it is no fault of their own. Life is not fair and no one ever told them it was. They can blame their criminal parents for their treatment, not the govt.

Of course the stock market is speculation, that's all it is. Fear mongering that it will crash again like in the 30s is just unfounded though. I'm not even sure why you bring up the rules of a 401k? its a savings acct for retirement so of course you cant take it out. If you want that get a Roth. Walmart has always been a crap company. Believe me I worked for them in college. The treat their employees like garbage. However your citing of one bad company does little to dispel the fact that over 200 others are investing in the economy and their employees substantial amounts of money. And corporate taxes are now finally in line with the rest of the world here in the USA after the tax reform.

Differences in philosophy I guess, or maybe I'm just one of those rich people your complaining about...

JLSpinner wrote: Definitely Brick. Our system relies on "responsible" leadership.

That's a thing in the US?

Kobos wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: Definitely Brick. Our system relies on "responsible" leadership.

That's a thing in the US?

It does everywhere, problem is we do have irresponsible leaders brought in. Trudeau for one. Another leader with a T last name as well...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Differences in philosophy I guess, or maybe I'm just one of those rich people your complaining about...

I'll go with "differences in philosophy". As much as I espouse the liberal agenda here, I'm upper middle class myself. Why else would I be concerned about my 401k? :lol:

When it all comes down to it, we're in this together and we have to work together.