What is the key characteristic of leadership?

Humbleness.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @obi

And what if your leaders care about your best interests but the mission is more important? Military leaders are forced to send men to their deaths every day because the importance of the mission is greater than the importance of the man. So what would it take for you to believe in a leader to the point that you would follow him to your death? I know that 90% of the people on this earth have never had to face this choice and they get to make arm chair decisions but just for one moment put yourself there. What are you willing to die for under leadership?

I think it would still be competence and loyalty. I wouldnt presume to suggest a specific figure but i do believe that a large percentage of the people in leadership positions in all levels of government are incompetent or disloyal (or both). Or they are both competent and loyal, but they are loyal to industries like big oil or banking or arms manufacturing or insurance ect ect, and not so loyal to who i want them to be loyal to: me, and the working class, and to Truth.

I tried to join the army after 9-11, but i had a previous diagnosis of depression as a child (did some in-patient treatment), i didnt graduate high school, and by that time i had already been in trouble with the law a couple times, including drug probation for marijuana. So, the military wasnt real excited about me (to say the least lol) and (at that time in my life) believing myself at heart to be a failure and knowing that if i got in i was definitely going to get killed, i accepted the rejection with equally sincere amounts of sadness and relief.
A few years later i tried the marines and had the exact same results, and that was that.

I have certain psychological traits that potentially would make me well suited to many aspects of military service, and if i didnt get killed or crippled or totally effed up wih ptsd, its very possible that i would have thrived in military culture. I BELIEVE that i would have been a good soldier, but we'll never know. And i dont think its appropriate for me to talk too much about what i THINK i would have done if i had been in the shoes of people whose shoes ill never be in.

What am i willing to die for under leadership?

At this point in my journey, im not signing the rights to my life and death over to anyone. Like i said, i dont trust the intelligence or the character of the people leading this country, and that means i dont want my life in their hands. Sure, the grunts who actually go and fight the wars are good people. And if you ask them, theyre fighting for each other. But the people who send them often have unworthy motives and extremely bad judgement, and those people can go fight their own damn wars for all im concerned.

I know there are people who consider America their enemy and who want to do us harm. Whatever their reasons may be, it does reach a point where its "us vs them" and at that point im in the "us" group too. And i do believe my answer would change if i found myself in a situation where i really was convinced that what i was being asked to do was necessary and justified, (competence and loyalty) but i dont see that as being a likely thing to happen to me in my life anymore.

Leadership is influence

Leadership is inspiring action through character in common virtue

What I said was how far are you willing to go when the mission DOES outweigh the mates. And yes there are times when this happens.

I dunno, give me 30 pieces of silver and I guess we'll find out.

We can disagree until the cows come home - determining a personal or cultural value can't really be done by cunning debate, so I guess we just continue on our way firm in our belief that the other is completely amoral and lacking in character

Sure, the grunts who actually go and fight the wars are good people

Sure, like Real Estate Agents are good people, or Bill Cosby.

Y'all venerate soldiers (easier to do when they are dead)
It is just as likely that any given "grunt" is/was a complete jerk as it is they are valiant heroes.

Getting rained on doesn't make you just

JamesSand wrote:

Getting rained on doesn't make you just

No but it does make you wet. And you are wet whether you are just or not. Meaning we are not all one thing or another. Just because someone might be a jerk does not mean they are not also a hero.


I didn't think we were disagreeing. I was just clarifying, unless you are saying there is no such thing as a mission that is greater than the mates?

I didn't think we were disagreeing. I was just clarifying, unless you are saying there is no such thing as a mission that is greater than the mates?

There is no mission greater than the values the drive you to do any given mission.

If that is some book, or an oath, or an organisation or whatever - then there is no mission greater than.

There would really be no point in following a "leader" asking you to do something that doesn't align with the reasons you do anything.


(Circling back to leadership and I think Ros say influence - sharing the values of the people you lead helps, but if you can't do that, understanding them and making it sound like those values align with what you want to get done can be effective )

Trisskar wrote:

Competent Action

Thank you! Thats where i was coming from also. Strange it wasnt the first thing on the list imo. Maybe its just so obvious that no one thinks its necessary to even mention it?

Rosalyn J wrote: Leadership is influence

This is pretty interesting to me Rosalyn. If i understand what youre saying, arent we all leaders (or potential leaders) to the extent that we all have SOME degree of influence? Is that the direction you were going?

jzen wrote: Leadership is inspiring action through character in common virtue

I understand "character" but im not sure what you mean by "character in common virtue". Could you elaborate?

JamesSand wrote: ....Y'all venerate soldiers (easier to do when they are dead)
It is just as likely that any given "grunt" is/was a complete jerk as it is they are valiant heroes.
Getting rained on doesn't make you just

Yeah, point taken. Ive met former military that didnt act like very good people. I think the veneration is a mix of (on the one had) honest resepect for idea that there are people who are willing to place themselves in danger on the belief that it is for the safety of the rest of us, and (on the other hand) good marketing blend of "heros are people who are good at violence" which is something of a cultural theme in America and "shame on you for speaking ill of our heroes" which is the typical political response to those who challenge pro-war policy.

At the risk of sounding completely mundane "One can only lead those the can/do influence". Its purposely broad because it incompasses all of the traits already discussed here