Sex Differences in Reproductive Rights

MadHatter wrote:
But a man is responsible for the care of the baby like it or not once the baby is born. So what do you think of my solution to level that? Further, what do you think of the statement that a father can be forced to be financially responsible for the child they get a say? Frankly, my opinion is that the solution I posted is the answer but I am curious to hear differing views.

There is no level playing field. it takes two to make a baby and two to care for it, but the space in between is a burden borne by the woman alone. Which is why the decision is hers.

Now, you can sign away your parental rights, and I believe that with that, child support is no longer payable (not 100% sure on that though, and I think it requires prolonged legal intervention). But remember, child support is not to benefit the custodial parent, but to support the child that two people agreed to potentially make by having sex.

Leah Starspectre wrote:

MadHatter wrote:
But a man is responsible for the care of the baby like it or not once the baby is born. So what do you think of my solution to level that? Further, what do you think of the statement that a father can be forced to be financially responsible for the child they get a say? Frankly, my opinion is that the solution I posted is the answer but I am curious to hear differing views.

There is no level playing field. it takes two to make a baby and two to care for it, but the space in between is a burden borne by the woman alone. Which is why the decision is hers.

Now, you can sign away your parental rights, and I believe that with that, child support is no longer payable (not 100% sure on that though, and I think it requires prolonged legal intervention). But remember, child support is not to benefit the custodial parent, but to support the child that two people agreed to potentially make by having sex.

As far as I know signing away your parental rights does not stop the duty for child support. The courts view the rights of the parent different than the duties that the parent has to the child. So the only way the child support obligation stops with the termination of parental rights is if the child is adopted.
So in light of that do you think it would be fair for a father to be able to HAVE the right to sign paperwork to terminate parental rights that also terminates the duties to child support? Which is pretty much my suggestions.
Also, I hope I was clear that I do not think a man should have a say in the abortion process. My only caveat is that this being the case they should have an out on parenthood as well.

MadHatter wrote: So in light of that do you think it would be fair for a father to be able to HAVE the right to sign paperwork to terminate parental rights that also terminates the duties to child support? Which is pretty much my suggestions.
Also, I hope I was clear that I do not think a man should have a say in the abortion process. My only caveat is that this being the case they should have an out on parenthood as well.

There is no such thing as an "out" on parenthood, though. And I say that as someone with a biological child that I have no legal rights for. Legally, I have no responsibilities to him as he was created through in-vitro for surrogacy for someone else, BUT I still need to be aware that I may have a moral or emotional duty to him in the future.

Since a child is created equally by two people (something the child had no say in), it has the right to be supported equally by two people (at least!) once it's born. That being said, the fact that women are the sole carriers of life between conception and birth, that makes the playing field intrinsically uneven. There is no such thing as "leveling the playing field." By having sex, a man is agreeing to an unwritten contract of potential fatherhood. A woman's choice to keep a child or not is his only chance at an "out" - and it's up to her.

Sometimes, life's not fair.

Leah Starspectre wrote:

MadHatter wrote: So in light of that do you think it would be fair for a father to be able to HAVE the right to sign paperwork to terminate parental rights that also terminates the duties to child support? Which is pretty much my suggestions.
Also, I hope I was clear that I do not think a man should have a say in the abortion process. My only caveat is that this being the case they should have an out on parenthood as well.

There is no such thing as an "out" on parenthood, though. And I say that as someone with a biological child that I have no legal rights for. Legally, I have no responsibilities to him as he was created through in-vitro for surrogacy for someone else, BUT I still need to be aware that I may have a moral or emotional duty to him in the future.

Since a child is created equally by two people (something the child had no say in), it has the right to be supported equally by two people (at least!) once it's born. That being said, the fact that women are the sole carriers of life between conception and birth, that makes the playing field intrinsically uneven. There is no such thing as "leveling the playing field." By having sex, a man is agreeing to an unwritten contract of potential fatherhood. A woman's choice to keep a child or not is his only chance at an "out" - and it's up to her.

Sometimes, life's not fair.

Whelp we are not going to agree here then. Because if a women can opt out of having the child and thus the responsibility of raising the child a man should have the same ability. Simply because a women has control over her body it should not prevent a man from having as close to even options as we can provide. The child at the time frame I put forward would not be born and not even be legally a person. So if you opt out at that timeframe I fail to see how it differs from abortion. Further sex is not a contract to potential parenthood. Not if a women has an out and not if steps are taken to prevent it. You, in fact, may have done everything reasonable to prevent it. If a women has yet one more chance to not be a mother a father should get the same option. Life not being fair is not an excuse for legal inequity. Otherwise we would say life is not fair if the father just walks off and refuses to pay.

I'm going to agree with MadHatter on this. A part of aborting a baby is removing future responsibility to said baby. If we are going to argue that a mother has a right to do that then so should the father. Only in the father's case he has no say in aborting the baby only in his future involvement with and responsibility to it.

Do I think a person should do that? No. I think you should face the consequences of your actions. However, I believe that everyone should get the same choice.

Please don't think that I'm saying that the two decisions are exactly the same. For a man it's "good bye forever, all I do is sign a form" and for a woman it's major surgery, but in so far as it can be even it should be.

Goken wrote: I'm going to agree with MadHatter on this. A part of aborting a baby is removing future responsibility to said baby. If we are going to argue that a mother has a right to do that then so should the father. Only in the father's case he has no say in aborting the baby only in his future involvement with and responsibility to it.

Do I think a person should do that? No. I think you should face the consequences of your actions. However, I believe that everyone should get the same choice.

Please don't think that I'm saying that the two decisions are exactly the same. For a man it's "good bye forever, all I do is sign a form" and for a woman it's major surgery, but in so far as it can be even it should be.

Pretty much my view exactly

Goken wrote: I'm going to agree with MadHatter on this. A part of aborting a baby is removing future responsibility to said baby. If we are going to argue that a mother has a right to do that then so should the father. Only in the father's case he has no say in aborting the baby only in his future involvement with and responsibility to it.

Do I think a person should do that? No. I think you should face the consequences of your actions. However, I believe that everyone should get the same choice.

And I'm saying that until men can carry a fetus, there is no such thing as the "same choice"

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Goken wrote: I'm going to agree with MadHatter on this. A part of aborting a baby is removing future responsibility to said baby. If we are going to argue that a mother has a right to do that then so should the father. Only in the father's case he has no say in aborting the baby only in his future involvement with and responsibility to it.

Do I think a person should do that? No. I think you should face the consequences of your actions. However, I believe that everyone should get the same choice.

And I'm saying that until men can carry a fetus, there is no such thing as the "same choice"

This again is where I think you are wrong. The same choice is the choice not to be a parent. The choice not to raise a child or pay for the raising of said child. The difference is that if men had the right the women would still have the right to raise the child if they wanted. So no its not totally the same choice and gives more freedom to the women in all cases. However as we cannot ethically mandate total leveling here making it as level as possible is only right.

This is why guys should tell their sons to get vasectomies. Until the artificial womb becomes a reality surrogates do a perfectly fine job, it's a lot more money than what women have to pay for a sperm donation, but not as much as what post-walls spend on IVF, which means it too could be tax-payer funded. It's pretty much the only way a man can have a child with the same rights, choices and risks a woman does.

They say "her body her choice" but it literally isn't her body. What they should say is "her life her choice" and you should make sure your sons get the same choices in their lives.

All I have to say is condoms are cheap and good judgement is free.