Does This Description of Anger Sound Familiar?

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6 years 9 months ago #285687 by
While reading "Star Wars and Philosophy", I came across a passage in the chapter describing Yoda as a Stoic. It is from an essay entitled "On Anger" written by Seneca, a noted Roman Stoic and philosopher. The passage is cited as evidence that since Yoda does not fear, get angry, or hate, he doesn't suffer. Here's how Seneca describes anger.

"Oblivious of decency, heedless of personal bonds, obstinate and intent on anything once started, closed to reasoning or advice, agitated on pretexts without foundation, incapable of discerning fairness or truth, it most resembles those ruins which crash into pieces over what they have crushed."

The passage supports Seneca's belief that anger is actually a sign of insanity. A certain politician immediately entered my mind upon reading this. Does this type of anger sound familiar to anyone else? Is there a place for it, or is Seneca's assertion that it is insane to act this way correct? Is remaining stoic in the face of this type of anger the correct response?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter as I contemplate.

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6 years 9 months ago #285688 by
A politician reminds you of this? lol which one? (I'm not saying this to be confrontational, forgive me)

I see the point on anger leading to insanity. Through Seneca's description of anger it causes the mind/persona or whatever you call it to act irate and "oblivious" to the world and the knowledge of others.

There is a problem, I believe. Am I the angry one? or is the other angry? Are we both angry or neither of us angry?

(Allow me rant for a moment...)

A few years ago I took my girlfriend at the time to the shooting range, taught her the basics of gun safety and spent the afternoon shooting. Was a great time. Later that day, she posted on her social media profile several images of a "pro-gun" leaning. This sparked some distant family member to begin a conversation on the political side of the issue. Myself, my GF, and the cousin were conversing and at some point stated something to the effect of she was ceasing the conversation because we were getting upset, despite the fact we were online exchanging comments and neither had said anything insinuating threats or aggressive behavior etc.

My GF said, "I'm not upset, how about you Joe?"
My response was "I'm actually enjoying this :)"

Getting angry is a normal response. Its a human response. It does not necessarily denote that one becomes oblivious. Additionally, we often see those we dislike or disagree with as being mad to make them look lesser or their argument lesser. Going solely by this quote we must be cautious from the simple "oh these people are angry because of X and therefore wrong because they are always that way."

One can feel anger and still be sane and decent. To that end a stoic response is necessary reason to still be exchange and share information.
Yes, your description of anger sounds familiar but maybe we are thinking of very different people...

Maybe we are all angry at one another lol

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6 years 9 months ago #285689 by
I agree that each of us will become angry at some point nearly everyday, and that is okay. It is how we react to the emotion that is key to the Stoic, and this is the piece that informs my personal path as a Jedi.

When describing Yoda, "Star Wars and Philosophy" continuously points out that he isn't above hostility, but he does not allow that hostility to be motivated by anger. When he duels with Dooku and also with Palpatine later, he does so out of necessity, but maintains a clear mind. He is not driven by a need for vengeance or the glory of victory. He seeks to resolve the problems in order to prevent suffering. He seeks the greater truth and chooses reason over passion. Even when he is forced into hiding on Degobah, he willingly accepts his fate and uses the time to commune with nature and nurture a deeper connection to the Force. With every reason to be consumed by rage, Yoda remains stoic.

Anakin, on the other hand, allows his anger to drive his actions. He becomes oblivious to facts and reason. He blames himself for not being powerful enough to save his mother. He blames the Jedi Council for not recognizing his extraordinary abilities. He blames Obi Wan for his own failures and accuses him of turning Padme against him. He despises Padme for her unwillingness to follow him down the illogical and dangerous path. All of these behaviors are reflected in the passage from Seneca. He is oblivious to how indecent his behavior has become (murdering children), ignores previous personal bonds to Obi Wan and Padme, becomes fully obsessed with ruling "his new empire", ignores reasoning and advice from Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi Wan, accuses Obi Wan of something he didn't do and gets pissed at him for it, and can't tell Palpatine's lies from the actual truth. He is eventually crushed under the weight of his own anger and loses everything.

I have seen politicians who play the role of stoic very well, and I am witnessing some current politicians who do the opposite and act more along the lines of what Seneca describes here. It isn't meant to be a judgement, but an observation.

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6 years 9 months ago #285690 by
I believe that anger can definitely lead to insanity. Have you ever been in an argument with someone before and have felt such anger that you do that weird maniac laugh?

I work retail and I had a customer make me so mad once that I could feel the anger boiling inside me. I had a warm feeling all over my body and got so angry that I yelled at her (she keep calling me names and racial slurs) and once I was in the safety of my srtock room, I laughed out load and started breaking our merchandise. Once I was able to calm down and take a breath, I looked back at my actions and realized that I was acting like I was insane. One of the definitions for "Insane" is "not sound of mind, mentally deranged"........once I calmed down, I looked back at the smashed product and realized that I was acting like I was out of my mind.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I thought I'd drop in my two cents ^^

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6 years 9 months ago #285694 by

vladucard wrote: I believe that anger can definitely lead to insanity. Have you ever been in an argument with someone before and have felt such anger that you do that weird maniac laugh?

I work retail and I had a customer make me so mad once that I could feel the anger boiling inside me. I had a warm feeling all over my body and got so angry that I yelled at her (she keep calling me names and racial slurs) and once I was in the safety of my srtock room, I laughed out load and started breaking our merchandise. Once I was able to calm down and take a breath, I looked back at my actions and realized that I was acting like I was insane. One of the definitions for "Insane" is "not sound of mind, mentally deranged"........once I calmed down, I looked back at the smashed product and realized that I was acting like I was out of my mind.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I thought I'd drop in my two cents ^^


I've had a few instances in my life where I felt a rage that took me out of my mind and body. It is a frightening, but powerful feeling. I can understand how it could become intoxicating and start to motivate one's actions more and more. The question I ask myself now is, how do I recognize and deal with this kind of anger? Should I be stoic and approach it with reason and detachment? Should I allow myself to rage and then let it go? Do I hold on to the anger silently? I have my own opinions about how to handle anger, but I like to hear how others approach it.

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #285695 by JamesSand
In the time I've spent thinking about this, three other replies have been made :P


I am an effigy of a man, made of rage, caffeine, and little bits of ticky-tacky, I consider myself an expert on anger in some respects.

Whilst some of what you say (or reiterate from what Seneca says...) rings true, I think we might be using a very broad brush for the term Anger.

Many who are not (outwardly) angry, are none the less "Oblivious of decency, heedless of personal bonds, obstinate and intent on anything once started, closed to reasoning or advice, agitated on pretexts without foundation, incapable of discerning fairness or truth", I don't want to use the word narcissism, but it's close.

It starts perhaps with Fear, rather than anger (Hmm. I think someone said something about that?) - Anger (by whatever definition) is one outcome, but not necessarily the one I think being described?
As equally evident are other controlling behaviours.

Anger comes from...the disconnect of your desire and your reality exceeding your power to change it?

Yoda & the Emperor had the power to change this disconnect (either the desire or the reality, that point is irrevelent for the moment) - so they were not Angry.
Anakin did not have that power - so he spent a great deal of time angry (until the end, where he managed to change his desire, yadda-yadda-yadda)

Either way the disease is the same.

is Stoicism a better bandaid than, I don't know, conquering the world?

Well, lots of us here think it is. Doesn't mean we are right :P

Well, I got distracted with Anger for a bit there - back to the description - Yes it sounds familiar, I know people (sometimes me) that resemble the description. I'm not sure that Anger is the diagnosis though.

Ignorance and a belief in one's own Righteousness might be :P
Last edit: 6 years 9 months ago by JamesSand. Reason: PHRASING
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6 years 9 months ago #285697 by Manu
From what I gather, the way Stoics define anger is as one of the "passions", and passions are defined as a polar opposite of reason.

Thus, by definition, anger is unreasonable.

I don't know that much about American history, but I wonder if there were any stoics within the founding fathers? Or within the government leaders during the Civil War era (US, not Marvel). How would a stoic react to British Rule? to Slavery?

Passion, yet Serenity.

There is a danger to Stoicism (as in all things): the adventure towards embracing dispassionate reason, might have us violently repressing our emotions. Emotions are there; anger happens... it's not bad. It's how we guide that force into action that makes a difference. The Code gives us a clue. We accept our passion, without judgement... and yet we also remember to stay serene. Thus we embrace the energetic push of passion, and guide it into productive decisions via serenity/reason.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
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6 years 9 months ago #285700 by

Magnus Staar wrote: I don't know that much about American history, but I wonder if there were any stoics within the founding fathers? Or within the government leaders during the Civil War era (US, not Marvel). How would a stoic react to British Rule? to Slavery?


I have read that George Washington was introduced to Stoicism as a teenager and practiced it as a general. It is also rumored that Thomas Jefferson had a copy of Seneca's works on his nightstand when he died. I don't know if he was actually a Stoic, though. His writing has hints of the philosophy, but many of his more famous exploits would suggest he was also ruled by his passions. Abraham Lincoln is portrayed as a Stoic figure, but I wonder if that has more to do with the way he was perceived rather than his actual personality.

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #285708 by
Jedi (light side advocates) tend to think of anger as a wild, negative emotion but this is simply not true. Of course if used in an uncontrolled manner, anger can lead to destructive rage that results in a person feeling bad or doing stupid things regardless of consequence. But anger should never be suppressed because it can also be controlled and channeled in highly positive and productive ways. This takes a strong knowledge of your personal character and an awareness of triggers. When these tools are utilized anger finds its constructive purposes, no different than any other emotion and it can be used to good effect.

Just a few examples of this include using anger as an inspiring force. Anger can be utilized as a form of positive energy that creates a powerful motivated intensity. Anger can make us push on towards our goals in the face of problems and barriers. When we see something as beneficial, we want it more when we’re angry. So, when used right, constructive anger can make you feel strong and powerful and help push you on to get what you want.

Angry people are actually more optimistic. Anger feeds motivation and that feeds ability to make change and be productive. This in turn increases our sense of accomplishment and self-worth. It drives us toward a more fulfilling happiness. This happens even in the face of tragedy. Those that experience anger as a result of tragedy take on the roles to change the future so that that sort of thing would never happen again. Ironically anger is a tool that can actually help reduce violence in this way. Another is on a personal scale as it is a very strong social signal that a situation needs to be resolved. When others see the signal they are more motivated to try and placate the angry party. The alternative is holding that in and allowing it to turn to violent rage.

Anger can also benefit relationships. Anger is a natural reaction to being wronged by someone and this facilitates a highly effective way of communicating that sense of injustice. However many try to hide that anger because they are told it is wrong to experience that emotion. But this is one of the most detrimental things you can do in a relationship. Not only is it detrimental to your emotional and mental health to hold that anger in, but your partner will also remain unaware of the issue and this will only result in the buildup of resentment which in turn may lead to a destructive rage. Better to express that anger as justifiable means to finding a solution. Working through these issues in this way can be a great path to benefit and strengthen relationships.

Anger can provide self-insight if we allow it. Often times allowing ourselves to be angry leads to positive outcomes in the form of insights into our own faults. This is a cyclic process that in turn leads to knowing ourselves better and that allows us to more effectively use emotions such as anger in the future. This is a process of self-evaluation that can motive personal change. This is actually a form of Wu-Wei in which we don’t struggle against the emotion by artificially trying to control or suppress it. We allow it out and we freely express it in a balance manner all the while being aware of what we are experiencing and evaluating its effects so that we may learn more about it and ourselves.

Anger can also be a legitimate way to get what you want. As a Je’daii, I embrace the balance of the force and in this I can see anger as an effective means of negotiation. It’s not a guaranteed tool of successful mediation but if it is justified in some fashion anger can be a show of power that will often times limit the other party’s options or control their responses. When deployed effectively in this manner it can be a means to an end to both get what you want maybe even get a little bit even. Of course I don’t advocate revenge unless absolutely warranted but it should be held as a viable dealing mechanism. In the end I think it is important to remember that even emotions perceived as negative or destructive on the surface do have their upsides when used with the correct intent.
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6 years 9 months ago #285757 by Cyan Sarden
Anger has two components to it: a physiological response and a cognitive one. There's not much we can do about the physiological component - it's a natural response and its extent varies from person to person.

If we want to make a change in our behaviour when it comes to anger, it's the second component that needs to be our point of action.

Sam Harris gives a neat explication for this: "[...] the anger you felt yesterday, or a year ago, isn’t here anymore, and if it arises in the next moment, based on your thinking about the past, it will quickly pass away when you are no longer thinking about it. This is a profoundly important truth about the mind — and it can be absolutely liberating to understand it deeply. If you do understand it deeply — that is, if you are able to pay clear attention to the arising and passing away of anger, rather than merely think about why you have every right to be angry — it becomes impossible to stay angry for more than a few moments at a time." (Sam Harris, via New York Times Blog )

In other words: becoming angry is natural, staying angry is not. Seneca recognised this as well: "The difference between it (anger) and irascibility is evident: it is the same as that between a drunken man and a drunkard; between a frightened man and a coward. It is both possible, for an angry man not to be irascible, and for an irascible man sometimes not to be angry." The differentiation here is the same as what Harris says: anger is a natural response, staying angry ("irascible") is not. When he talks about anger being a form if insanity, he means the latter - uncontrolled perpetuation of anger that goes beyond the initial natural response.

As a consequence, it's worthwhile to put trigger responses in place to quickly let anger dissipate once it's noticed.

Do not look for happiness outside yourself. The awakened seek happiness inside.
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